Per Se

[robert40]

I am still amazed that after finishing my dinner at the FL last year I was asked if I would like to meet chef Keller. It was close to 1.30 am.

[Andy Lynes]

It simply demonstrates that he's not only a brilliant cook but also a brilliant chef-executive.

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It slightly scares me to say this (and apologies for dragging up ancient history), but I vividly recalled a light hearted exchange of posts about the French Laundry we had a while back. A quick google and it turns out it happened nearly 4 years ago! You said back then that "I liked it fine -- it's a supremely competent restaurant -- but it's overrated and hardly worth the trouble." (click here for the quote in its original context). Your report from a meal in 1999 report of a meal from 1999 was also less than ecstatic. Have you changed your mind about the Laundry and Keller's food since then or are your current comments made purely in terms of Keller's professional abilities rather than your personal tastes?

[Fat Guy]

I didn't think my meal was so great, and I hasten to add that I was there when it was the only fine-dining restaurant in the empire -- and Keller was there. I haven't been back to the French Laundry since then, so my opinion hasn't changed at all. What I said was that many people consider French Laundry and Per Se to be two of a small handful of America's best restaurants. If they believe that, they should probably stop arguing that the chef has to be in the kitchen. I certainly agree with that high assessment with respect to Per Se, the restaurant at which Keller spends less time. In other words, the issue of presence or absence is irrelevant -- it does not correlate with anything.

[rich]

In other words, the issue of presence or absence is irrelevant -- it does not correlate with anything.

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Actually, and I'm being very serious here, a lot BOH people will say a kitchen runs smoother and more efficiently when the EC or CC isn't around. New Yorker magazine did a piece on that issue about four-five years ago and focused on Batali, Ducasse, Flay, Lagasse and Ripert among others.

It was an interesting article - wish I could find it.

[ulterior epicure]

In other words, the issue of presence or absence is irrelevant -- it does not correlate with anything.

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Actually, and I'm being very serious here, a lot BOH people will say a kitchen runs smoother and more efficiently when the EC or CC isn't around. New Yorker magazine did a piece on that issue about four-five years ago and focused on Batali, Ducasse, Flay, Lagasse and Ripert among others.

It was an interesting article - wish I could find it.

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I agree with Fat Guy that a truly well-run kitchen should perform outstandingly whether or not the EC is in. More importantly, if the food is great - who cares? However, I guess there's something just slightly comforting to me, as a diner, to know that the "real McCoy" is actually at the helm. While I can't say that I frequent any one, or few, fine-dining haute establishments repeatedly enough to be able to discern the difference between when the EC is/isn't in the kitchen, I will say that there were instances when I've been disappointed with a meal to find out afterward that the EC wasn't in... and I'm left to wonder whether things would have been different had the EC been present. Unless I see them, I almost always assume that the EC isn't in.

The opposite happened to me at JG a couple of years back, when I was absolutely goo-goo from the meal, only to find out afterward that JG wasn't in. I was equally impressed with my last meal, in which JG was in. I was terribly disappointed by my one meal at Daniel, only to find out afterward that Daniel Boulud was in that evening (however, he happened to be hosting his annual Lyonnais get-together with Bocuse...).

Bringing this thread back around the Per Se, I know that Keller was not in the day I ate at Per Se. While I can't say I was ecstatic about my meal, it wasn't bad either. The FOTH service was stupendous. Any slights I had with the food itself seemed to be more conceptual than in execution. The only thing I think that Keller's presence would/could have added to the experience would simply be the privilege of meeting him. I'm off to TFL in less than a month... I won't hold my breath, but it'd be nice to catch up with him there.

u.e.

Edited April 14, 2006 by ulterior epicure (log)

[ckkgourmet]

Fat Guy apparently had an unexceptional meal at the FL, but I would like to ask him and others what ratio of so-so/excellent meals one should expect at a place of Per Se's reputation and price? With Thomas Keller I've had 2 great meals, 1 excellent meal, and 1 so-so meal (this week). That's not bad, but I'd like it to be better. My experience of consistency at other fine restaurants in this country, such as ADNY, is not necessarily different, incidentally.

Edited April 14, 2006 by ckkgourmet (log)

[ulterior epicure]

On the topic of chefs' dedication to seasonality and consistancy in the kitchen, Frank Bruni says in his April 12 podcast.... click here.

[Vadouvan]

If the implication is that Thomas Keller doesn't spend a lot of time in his restaurants' kitchens, directly involved in the food preparation, that couldn't be farther from the truth. He is by all accounts one of the hardest-working chefs anywhere, pulling long shifts and working in a very hands-on manner. At the end of a shift, he can often be found scrubbing the cooktops and floors. It's true that he has two fine-dining restaurants on opposite coasts, however each of those restaurants is widely considered to be among the best (or, by many, the best) in North America. This hardly seems an insult-worthy achievement. It simply demonstrates that he's not only a brilliant cook but also a brilliant chef-executive.

There is no "implication".

I am saying for a fact that cooks at PerSe in conversation said that Sous chefs and the chefs at the restaurant come up with new dishes on the menu based on meeting and inventories of food on hand most of the time.

This isnt in any way implying that TK is or isnt spending time there or leading by example. My point was that the quotes by ulterior epicure went into too much detail of what Keller did or dindt do right in his dinner that he was probably ascribing dishes that were composed by the cooking staff to TK personally.

Frankly it sounds plausible because each new PerSe menu is laughably gratuitous in the extent that quotes are used on the menu.

Must one refer to organic rice as "Biologico" in America ?????

Lobster "mitts" ???

Seriously....

[robert40]

What is unusual about Keller's restaurants is the kitchen staff are involved in menu planning regardless if Keller is in house or not. This is nothing new as it his his practice long before he became the popular chef he is today.

If it works for him great. But I also tend think he has a much better talent pool in his staff to allow that menu control.

[ulterior epicure]

My point was that the quotes by ulterior epicure went into too much detail of what Keller did or dindt do right in his dinner that he was probably ascribing dishes that were composed by the cooking staff to TK personally.

Vadouvan,

1. I would like to think that an EC would take credit for what comes out of his/her kitchen regardless of who planned it or prepared it.

2. I was not proporting to ascribe anything from my meal personally to Keller. In fact, I knew well before the meal started that Keller would not be in.

ulterior epicure.

Edited April 14, 2006 by ulterior epicure (log)

[docsconz]

If it works for him great. But I also tend think he has a much better talent pool in his staff to allow that menu control.

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Of this there can be no doubt. There is a long and growing line of TFL alumni making names for themselves all over the USA. As my recent meal at TFL can attest, the absence of both Thomas Keller and Corey Lee did not cause the kitchen to melt down. My meal was generally outstanding.

[Vadouvan]

2. I was not proporting to ascribe anything from my meal personally to Keller. In fact, I knew well before the meal started that Keller would not be in.

ulterior epicure.

Not to be nitpicky...

but you sir said in your blog and I quote..

"If our voyage on the Titanic of restaurants had a near-miss, it was with the “Cervelas de Lyon" - a house-made pork sausage. Keller steered way off course with this little torpedo"

and further....

"Thankfully, Keller managed to mitigate the damage of the wiener disaster with the “melted” Savoy cabbage. The bed of finely shredded cabbage sat in an exquisitely pungent and earthy Perigourdine sauce "

and the coup de gras.......

"Plates cleared, thankfully, Keller found his way back on course and steamed full-throttle ahead with a very redeeming Elysian Fields Farm lamb rib chop."

I have no problem with talented chefs at per se making menu items but the prose and tone of your review makes direct references multiple times to "keller".

Not the cooks, restaurant, kitchen.......Keller.

My point was just that TK probably never even saw them sausages and clearly by your conclusion, his standards are higher than the quote leathery sausages you were served.

Of course per se i s a great place and TK works hard

[ulterior epicure]

2. I was not proporting to ascribe anything from my meal personally to Keller. In fact, I knew well before the meal started that Keller would not be in.

ulterior epicure.

Not to be nitpicky...

but you sir said in your blog and I quote..

"If our voyage on the Titanic of restaurants had a near-miss, it was with the “Cervelas de Lyon" - a house-made pork sausage. Keller steered way off course with this little torpedo"

and further....

"Thankfully, Keller managed to mitigate the damage of the wiener disaster with the “melted” Savoy cabbage. The bed of finely shredded cabbage sat in an exquisitely pungent and earthy Perigourdine sauce "

and the coup de gras.......

"Plates cleared, thankfully, Keller found his way back on course and steamed full-throttle ahead with a very redeeming Elysian Fields Farm lamb rib chop."

I have no problem with talented chefs at per se making menu items but the prose and tone of your review makes direct references multiple times to "keller".

Not the cooks, restaurant, kitchen.......Keller.

My point was just that TK probably never even saw them sausages and clearly by your conclusion, his standards are higher than the quote leathery sausages you were served.

Of course per se i s a great place and TK works hard

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Points all very well taken.

Can anyone (perhaps someone in the P.S. kitchen) illuminate us how much T.K. has control over the items on "his" restaurant's menu? Perhaps I'm assuming too much...

... and yes, clearly, since Keller was not in during my service, I'm quite sure you're right that "he never even saw them sausages." ...not my particularly tough ones, but I'd hope he'd at least seen a version of it coming out of that kitchen.

u.e.

[robert40]

I would hate to go out on a limb here as I can't speak for ulterior epicure but I tend to think his reference to Keller was likely just a figure of speech.

Like Keller's restaurants in a whole and not Keller physically being there. Or at least that's the impression I got.

[ulterior epicure]

I would hate to go out on a limb here as I can't speak for ulterior epicure but I tend to think his reference to Keller was likely just a figure of speech.

Like Keller's restaurants in a whole and not Keller physically being there. Or at least that's the impression I got.

robert40.

You're not going out on a limb at all... as I alluded in a former post...

1. I would like to think that an EC would take credit for what comes out of his/her kitchen regardless of who planned it or prepared it.

But, I suppose I could see how one might not read my report the same way you did... but, I do hope that all of the confusion has been resolved.

u.e.

Edited April 14, 2006 by ulterior epicure (log)

[Vadouvan]

but I'd hope he'd at least seen a version of it coming out of that kitchen.

just a general comment....

Everytime I hear the word "version", the said item always seems to fall short of par.

I would hate to go out on a limb here as I can't speak for ulterior epicure but I tend to think his reference to Keller was likely just a figure of speech.

Like Keller's restaurants in a whole and not Keller physically being there. Or at least that's the impression I got

That could very well be a plausible contextual use of but I would disagree since you could substitute the word "Keller" for "Benno"

and then it would not be a figure of speech but a highly likely fact.

[Fat Guy]

That's just how people speak about restaurants. If you look at many restaurant reviews, such as in the New York Times, you'll see the chef typically credited and blamed for everything, which is as it should be. The Times reviewer knows the restaurant is a team effort, but the chef personifies the team.

This echoes the way people speak about many types of projects where there's a leader backed up by a team. The lead counsel in a court case might have 50 attorneys working for him, he may not have done any legal research in 20 years and in major litigation he probably didn't even read the legal briefs on many of the minor procedural issues. Nonethelss, he signs the papers and is the face of the litigation team, and, ultimately, he takes full responsibility for anything that goes wrong.

[iheartoffal]

The thing that always irritates me is when people freak out if they go to eat at a celebrity chef-run restaurant and find out that said chef is not in the house, as if the meal cannot possibly be as good. It's an irrational assumption that seems (unfortunately) to be widely held. In the upper eschelon of restaurants, the people responsible for the day-to-day planning of the menu are intimately famiar with the chef's philisophy and values and fully capable of executing them faithfully...especially at a place like Per Se, where I know for a fact that a number of the people there have worked with Keller on and off for many years.

[Vadouvan]

I suppose this explains why the operative word in food writer is "writer".

I understand that chef owners are in charge but I dont buy the excuse that"thats just how people talk about restaurants".

When Cafe Boulud was awesome, nobody wrote about it in the context of DB's cooking, it was always about Andrew Carmelini. I think people just set a different standard for FL and Perse. Zakarian isnt taking credit for the food at Country, JG isnt taking credit for the food at spice market, Morimoto doesnt even come up with any of the non sushi/non Omakase dishes at his eponymously named restaurant.

And as regards serious major litigation, there are no figurehead "lead attorneys" which is why law firms have practicing partners and senior litigators.

When Merck or Astrazeneca are being sued for several millions, I am dead certain the lead attorney directs every detail of strategy and isnt a figurehead so that may be a not so good analogy.

[Vadouvan]

as if the meal cannot possibly be as good

Its not that the meal cant be as good,it can be as good, its just that many times it isnt.

I dont think the people are simply making the assumption as much as they are reacting to several lackluster meals in celeb chef restaurants.

The fact is this issue is a problem in many restaurants and all you have to do is scan egullet to see multiple postings. I think it's absurd to say this issue of absentee chefs isnt a problem, certainly if people want to worship FL and PS as temples of perfection impervious to mistakes, then fine but clearly this isnt true from at least this thread. I have no problem with mistakes every now and then, that's life...............but cant have your genoise and eat it too.

The minute you step out of your restaurant and one thing is wrong, all a diner cares about is that the food be perfect.

The very least I would hope for a $400 dinner.

Finding the correct casing for sausages isnt rocket science, you would have at least cook one and cut it with the same knife customers use to see it was a problem.

Restaurants should not run like "legal Teams", they should run like "ballistic subs"

Capns always on board...or we arent going anywhere.

Edited April 15, 2006 by Vadouvan (log)

[iheartoffal]

My point was that the presence or absence of the chef isn't the major factor that most people think it is...for good OR ill. Of course a bad meal is possible at even the best of restaurants. What I'm saying is there isn't always a direct correlation between the meal and wheather the chef is there or not. Perhaps I should have been clearer.

Edited April 15, 2006 by iheartoffal (log)

[Fat Guy]

When Cafe Boulud was awesome, nobody wrote about it in the context of DB's cooking, it was always about Andrew Carmelini. I think people just set a different standard for FL and Perse. Zakarian isnt taking credit for the food at Country, JG isnt taking credit for the food at spice market, Morimoto doesnt even come up with any of the non sushi/non Omakase dishes at his eponymously named restaurant.

Andrew Carmellini wasn't even mentioned in the New York Times review of Cafe Boulud. It was all Daniel Boulud, and the only mention of anybody other than Boulud was of Alex Lee. For example:

Mr. Boulud changes the menu so frequently it is hard to predict what you will find.

Mr. Boulud is equally inspired by the passing of the seasons.

Soup is another sure thing with Mr. Boulud, who seems to have a special talent for it.

http://events.nytimes.com/mem/nycreview.ht...260&oref=slogin

Geoffrey Zakarian, as far as I can tell from the PR materials I've been sent, very much claims credit at Country. In the early press releases, there was no mention of any other chef. Later, the releases all lead with Zakarian and mention the chef and pastry chef much later, as an afterthought.

In describing the inspiration behind Country's second floor dining room, Chef/Owner Geoffrey Zakarian says, "I've created a restaurant where guests will feel like they are going to a friend's home for a dinner party."  Quite the party indeed, as this inspiration continues in the service, with plenty of tableside preparation, evoking a more celebratory feel. Diners surrender themselves to the creative control of this very talented kitchen - feasting on a meal meticulously designed from hors d'oeuvre to dessert.

And then after dishes are described:

To assist in executing his culinary vision, Zakarian tapped Alain Ducasse protégé and former Executive Chef at Mix in New York, Doug Psaltis to serve as Executive Chef.  Pastry Chef Craig Harzewski applies his French techniques refined at both Le Cirque and Payard, creating a dessert menu that is equal parts nostalgia and sophistication.

Thus, the review in New York Magazine review of Country includes language such as:

Zakarian’s style here is traditional in an almost achingly mannered, Michelin-approved way. Each meal begins with a small flotilla of amuses-bouches (frog’s-legs beignets, say), followed by a traditional velouté (made with cèpes mushrooms on one of the evenings I visited and shellfish on another), or a foie gras terrine, or a deceptively simple (and delicious) market salad tossed tableside in a white porcelain bowl. It was the tail end of truffle season when I ate upstairs, and Zakarian scatters them like confetti on lobster, in his vegetable fricassee (sweetened with a citrus sabayon), on sweetbreads, and on pieces of beef drenched in Périgueux sauce.

Same story in the New York Times review of Spice Market:

That food is street food -- a gastronomical genre that is regarded by some as the best in the world. Only here it is reworked and polished. Egg rolls stuffed with mushrooms gleam under Mr. Vongerichten's touch.

Mr. Vongerichten uses heat judiciously. In red curried duck, the warmth offsets a rich coconut and lemon grass broth, and in pork vindaloo, red finger chilies balance a powerful blend of cumin, ginger, garlic, cinnamon and cardamom. It is easy to become overstimulated by all the flavors. No detail eludes Mr. Vongerichten's experimental mind. Even the ginger ale is homemade. An extract of ginger, sugar and lime is blended with club soda -- a drink with perfect zip.

In that review, there was no mention of Gray Kunz or of any chef de cuisine: http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html...750C0A9629C8B63

I think you're going to find that this is indeed just how people talk about restaurants. It's no excuse, it's the way we use the language. This wasn't some mistake Ulterior Epicure made that he needed to be hounded for. He was following the standard procedure for talking about restaurants. You may want to change that procedure -- you seem to feel very strongly about it -- but currently this is how people talk about restaurants.

And as regards serious major litigation, there are no figurehead "lead attorneys" which is why law firms have practicing partners and senior litigators.

When Merck or Astrazeneca are being sued for several millions, I am dead certain the lead attorney directs every detail of strategy and isnt a figurehead so that may be a not so good analogy.

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As a litigator, I worked on plenty of multi-million-dollar cases for clients just like Merck, and I can report to you that these matters are handled as team efforts, under a delegated system. This doesn't make the lead partner a figurehead, it simply makes him a good commander-in-chief: he's focusing on the big picture and the folks on the team are handling various aspects of the case according to his plan. Just like at Per Se or French Laundry.

The legal example is one of many, however. This is simply how leadership and delegation work in most any large, successful corporation. As soon as a company -- be it a restaurant or a law firm -- grows beyond the scope of a small or family business, there has to be delegation or the whole thing collapses. But the leaders retain responsibility, even at large organization sizes.

[Vadouvan]

This wasn't some mistake Ulterior Epicure made that he needed to be hounded for. He was following the standard procedure for talking about restaurants. You may want to change that procedure -- you seem to feel very strongly about it -- but currently this is how people talk about restaurants.

No one is "hounding" anyone, it's just a spirited discussion, last time I checked, that is what the whole forum is for.

I guess we just read in different styles.

I understand the fact that people may talk about chefs in a general context and trust me, this is the least of my worries.

To write a detailed review about how a chef ORCHESTRATED a specific preparation in a tasting menu when you can factually prove he wasnt even in the country is absurd.

Nothing wrong with saying "kitchen" or "named" sous chefs/CDP's/CDC.

Some people just dont feel like dropping $800 on dinner for two based on the romantic journalism of who is in the kitchen.

[chefboy24]

i used to cook at country.

geoffrey and doug are in there, all the time, every day, (upstairs and down, lunch and dinner), and have been since september. the menu comes from both of their minds, some dishes from geoffrey, some from doug.

[Fat Guy]

I understand the fact that people may talk about chefs in a  general context

To write a detailed review about how a chef ORCHESTRATED a specific preparation in a tasting menu when you can factually prove he wasnt even in the country is absurd.

It seems you don't understand, then. There's nothing "absurd" about what Ulterior Epicure wrote. He was just speaking English.

"I am at all my restaurants all the time."

--Ducasse