Per Se

[Pan]

Robyn, my father would tell you that being fat for a long time did a lot of harm to his health, including making him more susceptible to the cancer that's in remission but still a problem for him.

Regardless, my best wishes to your father-in-law. My father beat the odds, and your father-in-law might, too.

[robyn]

I have a different perspective on the matter. Anybody -- well, pretty much anybody -- can have sex pretty much anywhere. Whereas only 64 people a night can eat at Per Se, and they have to come to New York to do it.

I was just hearing today about a group of cooks at a restaurant in Quebec, all gathered 'round their computer screen looking at adrober's photos of the food at Per Se. There are people all over the world who are dying to see photos of and read everything they can about the food at Per Se, and this is where they're coming to do that. So I have to thank adrober, on behalf of the site, for increasing our relevance and providing this service to so many visually hungry people.

I was thinking more of Adrober than cooks at a restaurant in Quebec (or people anywhere else living vicariously). If he enjoys what he's doing fine (that's his call). But I sure wouldn't feel compelled to drag along a camera and take pictures of a meal I was eating to make people I didn't know happy.

I think there are all kinds of people in the world - and there are all kinds of people who eat at fine restaurants. And they do it for a variety of reasons (and many people will do it for more than one reason). There are people who just want to put notches on their belts. There are people who want to learn about the cuisine. There are people who interested in being food critics and/or photographers. There are people who want to have a great meal/delightful evening. I'm probably a combination of the second and fourth - "girls just want to have fun - while learning something too").

I really don't care why other people do it - but if Adrober is talking about Per Se as being a "near death" experience - he's basically not doing it right in terms of himself. When you're spending that kind of money - you should have a good time. Just my two cents. Robyn

[bloviatrix]

Next up was: Filet of Atlantic Halibut Cooked "A La Plancha."  Extra Virgin Olive Oil Braised Fingerling Potatoes, Roasted Spring Garlic and Arugala Pudding:

Check out that plate -- not just the overall shape, but the inset. Granted, it reminds me a bit of the CBS "eye" but I can't help but wonder how long Keller worked with his designers to come up with that.

[adrober]

Robyn, Thank you so much for your post. I think the sex comparison is right on and (on a more hush hush level) the mom and dad comment too. Actually, when my mom told me she had a reservation at Per Se I was both thrilled and disappointed: thrilled because, as Fat Guy points out, I would be one of the 64; disappointed because I knew the experience would be grayed by well-meaning but frequently dour company.

I've been rethinking my original post for a while now. I think the death metaphor was too heavy and probably more sensational than it was helpful. The truth is I felt over my head: I was (and still am) ill-equipped to review Per Se. I don't understand what I need to understand to understand what is being accomplished there. Understand?

I will say this: my memories of the meal are aging well. I've been retasting the foie gras with peach jelly in my thoughts; as well as the salmon tartare cone. I've been chiding myself for not leaving room at the end for those candies and chocolates. I've also been chiding myself for not being more gregarious---for not asking more questions, for not asking for a tour of the kitchen.

I also want to mention something about the service that I left out of my original post: it was wonderful. For those of you who read my Charlie Trotter review you may remember that I felt like my waiter was an alien. (That sounds like a newfangled Disney movie with Hillary Duff: "My Waiter Was An Alien!") At Per Se, this was very much NOT the case. Our waiter was perfect: down to earth, helpful, charming, attentive without being overbearing. He did a great job.

Ultimately, I will concede that I am too young. I'm not there yet. I'm new to the game. I think my writing is ahead of my palate; the tastebuds need some boot camp.

I still have issues with fine dining as an institution--(I think that's where my death thoughts originated). Surely the angry young man motif doesn't lack precedent, even in the food world. My liberal education makes it hard to eat comfortably in hoity-toity environs. But that's me. I'm still young and socially minded and eager to change the world. But I'll leave Per Se alone and lead my band of foodie discontents to Chicago with creme brulee blowtorches in hand. Viva La Revolution!

P.S. That's exciting that so many people are checking out the pictures, Fat Guy. I was worried the waiters would grow suspicious---one actually said: "You're going to give us copies, right?" Is this considered gourmet espionage? Will I be banned from future dining experiences?

[robyn]

Next up was: Filet of Atlantic Halibut Cooked "A La Plancha."  Extra Virgin Olive Oil Braised Fingerling Potatoes, Roasted Spring Garlic and Arugala Pudding:

Check out that plate -- not just the overall shape, but the inset. Granted, it reminds me a bit of the CBS "eye" but I can't help but wonder how long Keller worked with his designers to come up with that.

That plate is part of the "Point" line Keller has done for Raynaud/Limoges. It's an interesting line - but I disagree 100% with its marketing - namely that it's only being sold in Gumps in San Francisco. I called there to inquire - and wound up talking with a very disinterested sales person. Can't recall where you live (New York?) - but I live in Florida - and I wish the line was being sold nationally through a store like Bloomingdales - or Neiman Marcus. So - if we were interested in it - we wouldn't have to travel 3000 miles to take a look up close. Robyn

[Lesley C]

I feel completely stupid and petty for interjecting with this kind of comment on this thread, but I just can't get past the STUPID name of the restaurant. I see pictures, I read food descriptions, but that name is like nails on a chalk board.

I mean what the hell image does Per Se conjure up? I hate everything about it, it's cold, it's pretentious, it's meaningless. I will never be tempted to dine there just because of that name. It makes the hair stand up on the back of my neck. Ug. Per Se. Ug. Ug. Ug.

(sorry, I just had to get that off my chest)

[Pan]

Lesley, you may or may not remember that we had a long thread panning the name of the restaurant. But would you really let the name of what seems to be a great restaurant prevent you from giving yourself the pleasure of dining there?

[rdailey]

That plate is part of the "Point" line Keller has done for Raynaud/Limoges.  It's an interesting line - but I disagree 100% with its marketing - namely that it's only being sold in Gumps in San Francisco.  I called there to inquire - and wound up talking with a very disinterested sales person.  Can't recall where you live (New York?) - but I live in Florida - and I wish the line was being sold nationally through a store like Bloomingdales - or Neiman Marcus.  So - if we were interested in it - we wouldn't have to travel 3000 miles to take a look up close.  Robyn

I noticed recently on the FL website, that Raynaud and Keller have also begun offering the Point line at Bergdorf Goodman in NYC. I assume this was to coincide with the opening of Per Se.

The line is beautiful, but extremely expensive. The "oyster and pears" type bowl was around $65 each!

[robyn]

Robyn, Thank you so much for your post.  I think the sex comparison is right on and (on a more hush hush level) the mom and dad comment too.  Actually, when my mom told me she had a reservation at Per Se I was both thrilled and disappointed: thrilled because, as Fat Guy points out, I would be one of the 64; disappointed because I knew the experience would be grayed by well-meaning but frequently dour company. 

I've been rethinking my original post for a while now.  I think the death metaphor was too heavy and probably more sensational than it was helpful.  The truth is I felt over my head: I was (and still am) ill-equipped to review Per Se.  I don't understand what I need to understand to understand what is being accomplished there.  Understand?

I will say this: my memories of the meal are aging well.  I've been retasting the foie gras with peach jelly in my thoughts; as well as the salmon tartare cone.  I've been chiding myself for not leaving room at the end for those candies and chocolates.  I've also been chiding myself for not being more gregarious---for not asking more questions, for not asking for a tour of the kitchen.

I also want to mention something about the service that I left out of my original post: it was wonderful.  For those of you who read my Charlie Trotter review you may remember that I felt like my waiter was an alien.  (That sounds like a newfangled Disney movie with Hillary Duff: "My Waiter Was An Alien!")  At Per Se, this was very much NOT the case.  Our waiter was perfect: down to earth, helpful, charming, attentive without being overbearing.  He did a great job.

Ultimately, I will concede that I am too young.  I'm not there yet.  I'm new to the game.  I think my writing is ahead of my palate; the tastebuds need some boot camp.

I still have issues with fine dining as an institution--(I think that's where my death thoughts originated).  Surely the angry young man motif doesn't lack precedent, even in the food world.  My liberal education makes it hard to eat comfortably in hoity-toity environs.  But that's me.  I'm still young and socially minded and eager to change the world.  But I'll leave Per Se alone and lead my band of foodie discontents to Chicago with creme brulee blowtorches in hand.  Viva La Revolution!

P.S.  That's exciting that so many people are checking out the pictures, Fat Guy.  I was worried the waiters would grow suspicious---one actually said: "You're going to give us copies, right?"  Is this considered gourmet espionage?  Will I be banned from future dining experiences?

What's weird is I think your parents look younger than me and my husband. Nevertheless - parents are parents. Even if you had too much champagne with them - they'd still be parents! (I've eaten at nice retaurants with parents for almost 4 decades now - and I can assure you that your experience is not unique - the only difference as you age is you wind up picking up the checks for your parents - not the other way around - it's a total turnoff to spend big money taking parents out to eat - and hearing them complain non-stop about the meals they're eating - so that's what you have to look forward to .)

But I do understand what you're saying. My husband and I first started eating at fine restaurants when we were in our 20's (we're almost 60 now). We're both lawyers. When we were close to 30 - we got our first "grand lessons" in eating from a court reporter we used. He was about 25 years older than us - and he had spent 3 months a year in France every year after his service there in WW II. He basically taught us to eat. In France. Starting with bistros - and then working through 1, 2 and finally 3 star restaurants. I'm not sure how you learn to appreciate the difference between a bistro type restaurant and a 3 star restaurant without experiencing the stuff in the middle - and I'm not sure how I'd go about teaching myself today (I'm sure it can be done - would take a bit of work though). I just feel lucky to have had someone who was willing to take the time to teach me.

I can tell you that there were lawyers we know who went out to eat with our friend in France. They didn't take the time to learn from him. They just ate the meals he offered them. And more than a few told him he was being ripped off spending so much money on food. They weren't educated in terms of food - and they thought that if you spent X - you were spending too much - no matter what you were eating. They were a somewhat elevated version of my father-in-law - who - in his life prior to living near us - could never imagine a dinner as being worth more than $14.99 - no matter what it was.

(Aside to Pan - my father-in-law was never really fat - he smoked though - and he has bladder cancer - but now that he's very thin - he doesn't have to worry about eating anything.)

So I really don't think it's a question of being too young to eat (as opposed to critique). I had my first meal at a 3 star restaurant in France when I was in my 20's. I knew it was wonderful - but I don't think I could have done it justice in a review. If only because - for starters - I didn't know the names of half of the things I was eating. Anyway - at least in my opinion - you're not too young to learn how to eat.

But - you have to put political stuff to the side. Fine dining knows no political bounds. In my opinion - it's not a place to make a statement about people in the world who are starving - or animal rights - or any war - anywhere. It's just a simple hedonistic pleasurable thing. Like having a massage at a nice spa. Or putting up a whole lot of wonderful colorful blinking lights during the holiday season. Or just spending a morning curled up on the couch with the papers and a cup of coffee and not having anyone interrupt you for an hour.

By the way - I had the most liberal of liberal arts educations in Ivy League schools. So if I can enjoy big deal restaurants - there's still hope for you . I think you're off to a good start. You've eaten at great restaurants - but you have questions about why they're great. Eat at restaurants "in the middle" - and figure it out. And next time you go to a great restaurant - go with a friend or significant other who makes you laugh - and isn't counting calories (it's ridiculous - but sometimes people do that in fine restaurants).

Finally - learn how to eat cheese. I recommend this website for ordering cheese from France. Next time you have a party - order a lot - and work your way through it - from mild to stinky. Do it a few times. You'll get the hang of why stinky cheese is really great. And 3 years from now - you'll go to so-called great American restaurants - and wonder why their cheese courses are so mediocre . Anyway - enjoy. That's what life is all about. Robyn

[Jinmyo]

The name by itself and in itself is a bit aloof, Lesley, and I certainly don't care for the name, per se. But that wouldn't stop me from dining there, per se, were I given the opportunity.

[rich]

I hate the name El Bulli, so I decided I'm not going for dinner there tomorrow evening. Anyone want the reservation?

But I do like the name McDonald, so from now on that's where I'm eating everyday!

[bilrus]

The truth is I felt over my head: I was (and still am) ill-equipped to review Per Se. I don't understand what I need to understand to understand what is being accomplished there. Understand?

So why try to "review" it? How about "enjoying" it?

You can't be expected to be a good reviewer without the experience. And you won't want to accumulate the necessary experiences unless you enjoy yourself.

I have to say that I had a similar feeling about my meal at French Laundry. It took both my wife and I several courses to warm to the meal because we had too much "riding on it" - long wait to make the reservations, lots of calls to get them, travelling across the country to get there, etc. But by the end we just sat back and enjoyed the courses as they kept coming. In retrospect, it wasn't "the greatest meal I've ever had" oe even my favorite meal of 2003 - because we spent the first four courses in some strange moody funk.

That's the biggest reason I want to go to Per Se only six months after having been to French Laundry. I want to approach the meal with the right frame of mind and enjoy the WHOLE experience this time.

[Dryden]

Per Se reservation note:

So I got one this morning for July 4th, keep hitting redial, so on and so forth. I was absolutly sure I got the first call through after they switched the line from "we're closed" to "we're taking reservations". Literally, it went through at 10:00:01. So they pick up the phone, and all that's left is 5:45 and 9 PM. We took 9. But if you plan on calling at 10:01, don't even bother.

[Dryden]

bilrus-

We had some of the same experience at FL, as well. But I think one of the best qualities of a great restaurant is to go in with astronomical expectations and have them met (sometimes, they just can't be exceeded). What I remember most about the trip (other than the amazing food) was the one dish that wasn't up to snuff, it was a beef cheek, done beautifully, but we had been to Danube the week before and it had been better there. But by the time we left, all we really could say was that we had gone in expecting a perfect meal down to the last detail, and Keller and crew had delivered - and given what we were expecting, that was really something special.

[Lesley C]

Lesley, you may or may not remember that we had a long thread panning the name of the restaurant. But would you really let the name of what seems to be a great restaurant prevent you from giving yourself the pleasure of dining there?

Frankly, the whole Thomas Keller deal leaves me cold, and the name is just the icing on the cake, albeit a perfect cake.

I would choose a dozen places to dine at over the FL or Per Se. If I had $1000 in my pocket and access to any New York restaurant tomorrow I would choose Ducasse, Masa or even Spice Market over Per Se. Hell, even a Cuban sandwich at Schiller's Liquor Bar seems more appealing than a four-hour parade of endless perfection.

[oakapple]

I was absolutly sure I got the first call through after they switched the line from "we're closed" to "we're taking reservations". Literally, it went through at 10:00:01. So they pick up the phone, and all that's left is 5:45 and 9 PM. We took 9. But if you plan on calling at 10:01, don't even bother.

I don't think they do three turns at Per Se. It sounds like they've got two seatings on July 4th, and you got your choice. If it's really true that the res line is first-come, first-served, starting at 10am, two months in advance, then they can't have filled the whole restaurant in 1 second.

[Fat Guy]

If they're like just about every other high-demand restaurant, the prime-time tables are blocked out for VIPs and are never even offered to the general public. Try getting an 8pm table at Daniel on a Friday night. Those tables are just never put into general circulation.

[adoxograph]

adrober, I'm curious - did you feel anything you would define as New York atmosphere at Per Se compared to Trotter's? I'm wondering if it's all just fine dining, or did you find something subtle that made it fine dining NYC rather than fine dining Chicago?

Would Per Se have worked for you in Chicago?

[docsconz]

Lesley, you may or may not remember that we had a long thread panning the name of the restaurant. But would you really let the name of what seems to be a great restaurant prevent you from giving yourself the pleasure of dining there?

Frankly, the whole Thomas Keller deal leaves me cold, and the name is just the icing on the cake, albeit a perfect cake.

I would choose a dozen places to dine at over the FL or Per Se. If I had $1000 in my pocket and access to any New York restaurant tomorrow I would choose Ducasse, Masa or even Spice Market over Per Se. Hell, even a Cuban sandwich at Schiller's Liquor Bar seems more appealing than a four-hour parade of endless perfection.

Ok, Leslie, Ducasse or Masa I can understand, even the cuban sandwich in an anti-elitist way, but Spice Market??

[Really Nice!]

I feel completely stupid and petty for interjecting with this kind of comment on this thread, but I just can't get past the STUPID name of the restaurant.

Maybe he should have held a naming contest.

[Lesley C]

Ok, Leslie, Ducasse or Masa I can understand, even the cuban sandwich in an anti-elitist way, but Spice Market??

Hey, it got a three-star rating from The Times. Also, it looks like fun.

I'm just starting to see all this ultra high-end dining as a bit of a bore. I remember asking a high-ranked magazine food editor what she thought of the French Laundry and she said she wasn't interested in spending four hours over dinner anymore. I was surprised, but I can understand what she means. A four hour meal at La Bastide des Moutiers outside on a sunny day in Provence is one thing, but four hours at a table in an New York highrise is quite another.

[robert40]

I guess each to there own.

But I would spend four hours on roof with the pigeon's at 2.00am.

[chefdavidrusso]

My wife and I had the opportunity to eat at FL a few years ago, and we had a nearly flawless evening. I say nearly flawless because after the 4 hour extravaganze - in which not one flavor was out of balance, not one ingredient improperly cooked - they completely forgot to serve us our coffee. And you know what?? We didn't care one stinking bit!!! As a chef, I found it somewhat heartening that one of the top restaurants in the counrty could still make a mistake. It humanised the whole experience.

While I certainly agree that there is quitre a bit of idol worship that can happen when it come to Chef Keller, I think there is an equal amount of needless nay-saying, just to be contrary. Why can't we get comfortable with the fact that he is a top-notch chef who runs a fantastic restaurant? (I'll keep it singular because I haven't been to Per Se yet.) I aggree with what Dryden wrote:

...by the time we left, all we really could say was that we had gone in expecting a perfect meal down to the last detail, and Keller and crew had delivered - and given what we were expecting, that was really something special.

I also think that we all ought to step back and realize that if fine ultra high-end dinning is becoming "a bit of a bore," maybe we should just feel lucky that we experience it enough so that it has the chance to become boring.

[Lesley C]

I also think that we all ought to step back and realize that if fine ultra high-end dinning is becoming "a bit of a bore," maybe we should just feel lucky that we experience it enough so that it has the chance to become boring.

Excellent point.

[SobaAddict70]

Exactly.

And as for those of us who don't experience it as often, it'll be a snow day in hell before ultra high-end dinners become boring.

Soba