Chicken Noodle Casserole

[project]

Did a Chicken Noodle Casserole. Below I outline what I did and ask for suggestions for the next step in making it better.

GOAL:

Goal is a pot of food for quick dinners: Keep big pot in refrigerator. For a meal, scoop out desired quantity, heat to about 170 F in microwave, and eat.

Looking for something 'robust', say, hunting lodge food.

BACKGROUND:

Am borrowing from:

Jacques Pepin, 'Jacques Pepin's Complete Techniques', ISBN 1-57912-165-9, Black Dog & Leventhal Publishers, New York, 2001.

especially the dish "151. Chicken Pie" on pages 384 to 386.

OUTLINE:

Started with a Purdue Oven Stuffer Roasting chicken, 7.66 pounds as purchased.

For liver, chopped, poached quickly in about 3 T of water, removed liver to a small flat dish, reduced poaching liquid and added it to the dish, let dish cool, and called kitty cat. Happy kitty cat.

For the chicken, cut the wings into two pieces, cut the legs into two pieces, cut the breast from the back, cut the breast into two pieces. For the back, removed and discarded the 'red jelly stuff' under membranes on either side of the backbone near the tail. Also removed and discarded other loose material attached to the inside of the back.

Heavily peppered chicken skin.

Outdoors, in a Chinese steel wok, with about 1 C of Canola oil, over high heat from a propane burner with about 170,000 BTU/hour power, running at about 1/2 full power (low roar), quickly but darkly browned all the chicken skin. Also browned the neck, heart, and gizzard.

Indoors, packed browned chicken pieces, along with cooking oil used, in an 8 quart pot containing also 1/2 C dried parsley, 4 dry bay leaves, 1 T dried thyme, 1 T dried rosemary, 1/2 C minced garlic, 4 C Chardonnay wine. Added water to cover. Got about 7 quarts total volume.

Brought pot to simmer and simmered for 30 minutes.

Removed meat and let drain in a colander set in a bowl.

Poured stock through a strainer and discarded strainer contents. Removed and discarded fat from stock.

To stock, added 2 pounds pieces of large yellow globe onion, 1 pound of carrot pieces, 1 pound of celery pieces, and sliced, washed large white mushrooms from a package with net weight 24 ounces. Total volume was about 7 quarts; there was just enough stock to cover the vegetables.

Simmered for 30 minutes. Removed vegetables and let drain in a colander set in a bowl.

Took apart chicken placing diced meat in one bowl and rest in another bowl. Got 3 pounds 1 ounce of diced meat. Breast meat was just cooked. Some of the thigh meat next to the bone was still red.

Poured stock through a strainer; discarded strainer contents. Poured stock through cloth, twice; set cloth aside for washing later.

Got about 4 quarts of dark fragrant chicken stock.

Took stock from under colanders, removed fat, and added to main stock volume.

Added to stock about 12 ounces of reduced brown chicken broth from earlier efforts. Reduced stock to 3 C. Result gelled at room temperature.

Made white roux of 1 C unsalted butter and 1 C flour. Added simmering 3 C of stock all at once to hot roux and whipped until smooth. Added 4 C of hot whole milk and whipped until smooth. Added 2 C of heavy whipping cream and whipped until smooth. Added 1/2 C fresh lemon juice and 5 T salt.

Sauce would coat the back of a spoon and tasted good. The onions, carrots, and celery gave a 'brightness' to the flavor. The mushrooms added a little contrast. Lemon and salt balanced each other and together brightened the flavors. There was too much lemon and salt for the sauce alone but hopefully about the right amount for the final dish. Browned and pepper flavors did not seem too prominent.

In 1 1/2 quarts of simmering water, blanched 1 pound of fresh frozen petite peas. Discarded poaching liquid and added peas to vegetables. Earlier efforts showed that including blanching liquid from peas would add undesirable flavor.

In 4 quarts of simmering water, simmered 1 pound of hard dry egg noodles for 6 minutes. Each noodle was about 1 1/2 inches long, about 3/16 inches wide, and twisted about 1 1/2 turns. Drained noodles in a colander; discarded liquid. Noodles were nearly fully cooked.

In 8 quart pot, combined in layers chicken, vegetables, and noodles. Poured sauce over solids. Got a little too much volume for 8 quart pot -- ate extra.

Covered pot and heated through, with occasional stirring, in 250 F oven to center temperature of 160 F.

Chilled uncovered and then covered.

Put skin, bones, etc., from chicken in pot, covered with water, simmered to make brown chicken broth to use next time.

RESULTS:

Eating quantity reheated in microwave, results: It's rich. All that butter and heavy cream are quite noticeable. There is a lot of bright flavor from the onions, carrots, and celery. The onions, carrots, and celery, in the traditional proportions of 2:1:1, balance each other so that it's tough to notice any one of the three. The peas are a nice contrast. Might use milk instead of the cream and make the dish more 'meaty' by reducing the proportion of vegetables and noodles.

Otherwise, dish is a bit too 'vanilla', too simple. Dish could use some more flavor contrasts.

Maybe the noodles might be dark green ones?

One approach may be to get the wok smoking hot with only a little oil and toss the sliced mushrooms until edges brown. Earlier efforts showed that in a sufficiently hot wok, can actually get the mushrooms to brown before they can give up their liquid and that such mushrooms can add a smoky flavor to the dish.

Maybe some different mushrooms would help? Sure, morel mushrooms, but my uncle hasn't sent any in a while, and the prices are a bit steep! Similarly for truffles!

Maybe some bacon could be added somehow and would be good? Or, maybe there should be 1/2 C of diced ham? Would want some high quality ham with good flavor, maybe even with a maple and smoke flavor? Thoughts, suggestions for ham?

Maybe stock should get 2 T of Worchestershire sauce?

Maybe there should be 1 t of Cayenne pepper, 1 t of nutmeg, some sage?

Dry red wine instead of Chardonnay?

What might help?

Thanks.

[howard88]

Just a suggesstion:

Instead of substituting milk for the cream, evaporated milk might give you a better result. For this kind of dish, I would add turnip or rutabaga to the stock or when you put the whole dish together. I think it adds another level of flavor. You do not want to overpower the dish with turnip, rather add another dimension.l

[project]

howard88:

Gee, never used evaporate milk for anything!

I wasn't really using the cream for viscosity, although it does give a special 'mouth feel'. With the 2 C of roux, there is enough viscosity.

"turnip or rutabaga". Gee, I don't know anything about them. Should get some, do a Google on what is commonly done with them, taste them, and try them. Thanks.

I omitted that once I tried parsnips -- they were too strong.

Maybe I should try to borrow flavors from a traditional 'Coq au Vin'.

Could fold in some brown glazed white 'boiler' onions, but they are a lot of work.

[Suzanne F]

Perhaps some chopped fresh herbs added to the final mixture? Tarragon if you like it, thyme if not. Chives.

Shiitake mushrooms?

If adding Worcestershire, try the "Worcestershire for Chicken" fka White Wine Worcestershire; sprightly but not as assertive as the regular kind.

Try turnip/rutagaba in its own before you add any. Very sharp flavor, as a member of the Cruciferae family. If adding, cut in small dice and only lightly blanch, to maintain texture. But if parsnips are too strong, so might turnips be.

Ham: if so, NOT smoked, or at least not highly smoked; it will throw off whatever balance you've achieved.

[sfmiller]

I find that the worcestershire/cayenne combination does a lot to cut against the inherent blandness of starch-based casseroles. I use it in macaroni and cheese all the time, and sometimes with scalloped potatoes.

And don't underestimate the power of a handful of chopped flatleaf parsley (well, more than a handful, with your quantities), by itself or with another herb.

[marie-louise]

I don't think noodle dishes reheat well; I also don't think they are good assembled too far ahead before baking (except for lasagna, that seems to work okay.) They're okay reheated, just never as good as when they are fresh. Somehow the noodles absorb too much of the sauce and the thing always seems kind of dry and bland. You lose that quality of tasting meat, noodles, vegetables and sauce as indivdual elements-it all blends together like a bland bowl of soup.

If you really want to make this as a make-ahead dish, I'd prepare it to the point of adding the peas and noodles. Heat the chicken in the sauce, add fresh herbs and peas, then pour over freshly prepared noodles and bake (or serve as is.)

[Suzanne F]

Marie-Louise, you're right. However, if you notice, project didn't quite cook the noodles all the way -- so they could finish cooking in the reheating. Although I find there's something oddly comforting about slightly mushy, slightly overcooked noodles. Especially if you don't bother reheating, and just eat the dish right out of the fridge.

[marie-louise]

I always undercook any pasta that will be baked (or in this case, stirred stovetop.) I also make the sauce a little thinner, so once some of the liquid absorbs into the pasta, the sauce is the right consistency.

[project]

Suzanne F:

"Perhaps some chopped fresh herbs added to the final mixture? Tarragon if you like it, thyme if not. Chives."

Fresh herbs, in the final dish? Wow! Didn't think of that. I just put the herbs in during the chicken poaching. Then I strained the stock through wire mesh and then cloth. So, all the herbs and pepper particles got strained out. My goal in the straining was to have just a well flavored liquid stock as a base for the sauce. From the browning and pepper, the resulting stock looked like coffee; it was dark but not cloudy. With all the white roux, milk, and cream, the final sauce did get an acceptable color.

Usually I'm not too thrilled about tarragon, but my mind is not made up. Some of the fresh chives available look terrific (wrapped like long stem roses), and at times there are some good looking freeze dried ones. Some of the fresh thyme looks good, too.

"Shiitake mushrooms?"

Wondered about that. And oyster mushrooms. Not really going for a 'chicken-mushroom' casserole, but a wider variety of mushrooms might provide some of the needed extra flavors.

"If adding Worcestershire, try the 'Worcestershire for Chicken' fka White Wine Worcestershire; sprightly but not as assertive as the regular kind."

Haven't noticed that 'white' Worchestershire! I was guessing using the regular kind but not much of it.

"Try turnip/rutagaba in its own before you add any. Very sharp flavor, as a member of the Cruciferae family. If adding, cut in small dice and only lightly blanch, to maintain texture. But if parsnips are too strong, so might turnips be."

Super! I needed that!

"Ham: if so, NOT smoked, or at least not highly smoked; it will throw off whatever balance you've achieved."

Ah shucks! I was hoping that some smoke flavor might be just what I would need for some 'manly hunting lodge' effect! But smoke alone is simple, and really I suspected that it would be just crude and not interesting enough to make a good dish. Also, with the heavy browning that is giving the coffee colored stock, there is some browned/smoke flavor in there now, something like a low double bass note in an orchestra.

sfmiller:

"I find that the worcestershire/cayenne combination does a lot to cut against the inherent blandness of starch-based casseroles. I use it in macaroni and cheese all the time, and sometimes with scalloped potatoes.

And don't underestimate the power of a handful of chopped flatleaf parsley (well, more than a handful, with your quantities), by itself or with another herb."

WOW! You give me too much credit! I was just throwing out Worcestershire and Cayenne independently, not as an especially good combination! WOW, a special combination!

Okay, I've now got two expert votes to get some fresh herbs in the final mix. Looks like I should do it!

marie-louise:

"I don't think noodle dishes reheat well; I also don't think they are good assembled too far ahead before baking (except for lasagna, that seems to work okay.) They're okay reheated, just never as good as when they are fresh. Somehow the noodles absorb too much of the sauce and the thing always seems kind of dry and bland. You lose that quality of tasting meat, noodles, vegetables and sauce as individual elements-it all blends together like a bland bowl of soup.

If you really want to make this as a make-ahead dish, I'd prepare it to the point of adding the peas and noodles. Heat the chicken in the sauce, add fresh herbs and peas, then pour over freshly prepared noodles and bake (or serve as is.)"

WOW! Such expertise! eGullet rocks!

You're right: When I ate the excess that would not fit in my 8 quart pot, now that you mention it, there really was "that quality of tasting meat, noodles, vegetables and sauce as individual elements" and later "it blends together like a bland bowl of soup." That's what it did! And that blandness is much of what I'm trying to improve on.

Gads, you know more about my dish than I do, and I've been eating it! WOW!

And you are correct about the noodles absorbing (water from the) sauce: When I assembled the dish, the sauce, roux from 1 C of butter and 1 C of flour, 3 C of reduced stock, 4 C of milk, and 2 C of heavy cream, yielded a nice sauce, not goo, would coat the back of a spoon but was still clearly a sauce and not thicker. But, after reheating, it's all goo, no more liquid.

I do blame the noodles: The trial I gave here was my first with noodles. In earlier trials, commonly on reheating the sauce thinned out. Indeed, my use of all that roux is partly in an effort to keep a nice coat the back of a spoon consistency on reheating; Pepin uses only a little roux, and when I followed his instructions fairly closely, on reheating the sauce had also thinned out.

Looks like a summary remark is your "I don't think noodle dishes reheat well" WOW! I didn't suspect that!

Suzanne F:

"Marie-Louise, you're right. However, if you notice, project didn't quite cook the noodles all the way -- so they could finish cooking in the reheating. Although I find there's something oddly comforting about slightly mushy, slightly overcooked noodles. Especially if you don't bother reheating, and just eat the dish right out of the fridge."

Yup, I've done that already -- eaten some right out of the fridge!

Ah, Marie-Louise is still correct! The noodles don't turn to mush; the ones on top can even be a little crispy (desirable contrast for this dish); but the noodles pull enough water from the sauce to turn it to goo!

So, Suzanne F, you are correct: The noodles did "finish cooking in the reheating" and dried out the sauce!

marie-louise:

"I always undercook any pasta that will be baked (or in this case, stirred stovetop.) I also make the sauce a little thinner, so once some of the liquid absorbs into the pasta, the sauce is the right consistency."

I guessed and did the first but not the second! Again you know my dish without seeing it! The noodles do make the sauce too thick. So, if I keep the noodles in the refrigerated mix, then I should use less roux in the sauce.

The quantity -- a bit over 5 pounds total -- of onions, carrots, celery, and mushrooms I poached in the broth to make a stock (reduced to only 3 C) made the sauce alone close to passing the KFC test, but including all of those vegetables in the final dish is a bit much.

Gee, if I can't get this dish up from the bland category, then the only choice will be to top it with canned onion rings!

Many thanks, all!

[project]

sfmiller:

"I find that the worcestershire/cayenne combination does a lot to cut against the inherent blandness of starch-based casseroles. I use it in macaroni and cheese all the time, and sometimes with scalloped potatoes.

And don't underestimate the power of a handful of chopped flatleaf parsley (well, more than a handful, with your quantities), by itself or with another herb."

WOW! While for my next batch want to consider all the suggestions that were given, was easily able to take a first-cut try at your suggestion of a Worcestershire and Cayenne combination! So, just scooped out about 1 pint, sprinkled on some ground Cayenne pepper and some ordinary (dark) Worcestershire sauce (don't have white W. sauce yet), mixed, heated it in the microwave, toasted some bread to help cut the excessive butter fat content in the last batch, and ate it.

You're right! We're talking two swift kicks up some number of notches right away! It's nearly a different dish! All the outrageously strong onion, carrot, celery fragrance (and likely shouldn't forget the 1/2 C of minced garlic in the stock -- it really was a full 1/2 C, folks; I measured it; it was a somewhat packed 1/2 C; it was nearly all of two large heads of garlic) somehow go hand in hand with the W. sauce and C. pepper to carry the thing into something noticeable better!

Some of the sauce near the edges my microwave burned a little was neat stuff! Ah, maybe I should get out a propane torch and brown the top!

I also think that the W. sauce and C. pepper helped cut the butter fat flavor. The butter fat really should carry flavors and help make this a good dish; in principle, always reluctant to reduce the butter fat content!

Look forward to getting some flat leaf parsley, fresh thyme, white W. sauce!

The actual sauce making is fun: Get about 2 1/2 quarts of fragrant liquid velvet. It's going to be fun to stand there and add 1 t at a time B/W W. sauce and C. pepper, bump up the lemon juice and salt to match, dump in fresh herbs, mix, and pour over the rest.

Maybe I'm beginning to see some flavor orchestration, things working together for much bigger effects!

For "quantities", it's just one roasting chicken! I'm using a roasting chicken (actually, would like to use a stewing chicken) instead of a broiler or fryer in search of more flavor.

I'm using the whole chicken and, thus, getting a lot of chicken broth effect.

After I make a brown broth from the skin, bones, etc., there isn't a lot left to throw away!

This is getting to be fun!

eGullet -- good way to learn to cook!