Bartending School

[live2eat]

I've heard mixed reviews from friends who have taken it (and those who haven't) about the value of bartending school. Is it worth it? Is it not? Does it depend on the school or are they all equally worthless?

Any comments would be appreciated.

[Carolyn Tillie]

I've heard mixed reviews from friends who have taken it (and those who haven't) about the value of bartending school. Is it worth it? Is it not? Does it depend on the school or are they all equally worthless?

Any comments would be appreciated.

Where do you live?

My brother-in-law went to a Bartender School in Southern California because it touted prominant job placement. A year after the school, he was only able to get one referral to one job and that was in catering (sketchy gigs, at best).

Be aware.

[beans]

It depends. I don't want to slam the idea so as to discourage, but I cannot sugar coat it. Generally, in my experience, bartending schools are not looked at very favourably by bar management.

Keep in mind that educational institutions are not public service, but are profitable businesses. Unfortunately many bartending schools are some of the ones that are more about profit than imparting some great knowledge and bartending wisdom. [this is all very IMHO] Throughout the time I've bartended for a living, I have become personally aware of schools charging nearly $1000 tuition for their students to work with fake ice cubes and coloured waters to practice mixology, and provide empty promises for job placement. In fact, I became aware of one local bartending school that took our restaurant's bartender drink recipe book and training manual(s), reproduced it at say, Kinko's, and used them as the class material handouts. This is also the same school that used the bar manager's name falsely representing to their students that positions were open and available to them upon their completion.

Every Spring new graduates stream in, waiving around a flimsy certificate of completion as a badge of honour, fill out applications but lack actual hands-on experience. As policy we do not hire anyone without a verifiable minimum of two years of similar high volume experience.

There is MUCH discussion of this issue on Webtender, however a search will yield approximately 2595 hits regarding that topic. I'll see if I can sift through and find some of the better discussions, as this is a topic that is usually brought up in a new thread at least once a week. I'll post back with a few links. However in the meantime, I trust this lady -- Cheryl Charming. Here is her web page to this FAQ.

[phaelon56]

Having worked as a bartender in an entertainment venue and also for weekend gigs with a large catering service, I have at least some related experience. In my not so humble opinion, bartending school is a waste of time in terms of potential job opportunities relative to the money spent. I've spoekn to plenty of people who went to "bartending school" and not one got a job based on that training.

My advice is to try finding a neighborhood bar with an pen-minded and friednly owner. Explain your goals and offer to work two nights a week as an unpaid "barback" for a few months, with the understanding that if you show the hustle and the grace under pressure, they'll let you get some training and experience. Parlay that into a job at a smaller establishment and then jump from there either directly into a higher volume restaurant asettign as an asisstant bartender or on the service bar. I stayed the course on workign for a caterer as it agreed better with my schedule and I never had to deal with the smoke issues (not a problem now in NY state due to the new laws but back then any "regular" bar was nearly always smoky).

Also..... buy and read, over and over again, some books on drinks. learn the basic and learn the fancy ones. Unless you've targeted a college hangout, I would not worry too much about the wild drinks with names you've rarely if ever heard of. For more traditional or more upscale establishments you will need to know much more than just the basics but much of it come with experience.

I also suggest getting some cheap liquor, some pouring tops (free pour tops - not the kind that do a measured pour) and a couple mixing glasses, a strainer, some vermouth etc. Practice, pratice and the more practice. It's easy enough to consistently free pour 1 oz or 1 1/2 oz shots but not until you've done it repeatedly and gotten a feel for timing your shots.

[Carolyn Tillie]

I also suggest getting some cheap liquor, some pouring tops (free pour tops - not the kind that do a measured pour) and a couple mixing glasses, a strainer, some vermouth etc. Practice, pratice and the more practice. It's easy enough to consistently free pour 1 oz or 1 1/2 oz shots but not until you've done it repeatedly and gotten a feel for timing your shots.

Really good suggestion. Also, when I was managing catering gigs, I never checked if my bartenders went to a school or not, but those that had their own kits ~ basically a clean tool kit in which were a bartender's personal tools. It was something my bro-in-law was NOT taught and the family bought him one. Now he can get those weekend gigs because he can walk into a situation and set up and pour a bar (the caterers tend to only buy the stuff to make the drinks, but do not supply the tools with which to make them).

And practice - lots.

[LJC]

It depends on your motive; if you are looking to gain some basic bartending knowledge and skills many of the courses are just fine. If you are looking to gain training that you can translate into a bartending job forget it.

The majority of the schools will help you gain some basic knowledge of spirits and mixology that will make you a better home bartender but as previously posted most established bars will only hire those with confirmable previous bartending experience.

[Fat Guy]

So, one can become a bartender without taking classes at a bartending school? I just assumed there was a coursework and licensing requirement. Shows how much I know.

[beans]

Steven -

Yes.

I can't think of a single state that requires a license. Shhhhh! It may become a new source to generate revenue.... uggh!!!!

The points that Cheryl makes on her Become a Bartender webpage link I provided above suffices rather nicely, so I've decided against posting a bunch of additional links of Webtender discussion rehashing the same thing needlessly.

[live2eat]

Thanks to all for your helpful replies! But by all means, don't stop there. If anyone else reading this would care to opine/rant/encourage/discourage, please continue.

But the little research I've done has yielded this:

Nobody wants to take the risk and hire some random person off the street waiving that oft mentioned "certificate" (which really has no official recognition). Most managers seem to find a lot of these people flaky and without the ability to perform their jobs well. And so, these managers would much rather hire from within from the serving staff or someone who's put in their "due time" as a barback. Because then they'll have seen that the server or barback is dependable and has thus mitigated the risk of hiring some flake off the street.

But here's my question: Is the server who has now moved up to behind the bar is no more (or less) skilled in the actual trade of bartending (and in terms of mixology) than the fresh-faced bartending school grad? They may have picked up how to make a drink or three (or more!), but so has the b-school grad. Neither has had time behind the bar. The only difference is that the server has proven themselves to be a worthy and dependable <i>employee</i>, while the guy waving the certificate hasn't. NEITHER has experience. I'm getting the impression that the "read between the lines" message about getting hired in many places has naught to do with experience, but to do with one's dependability. 'Cuz hell, the guy you moved from the floor to the behind the bar can't pour a drink or replace a keg any better than anyone else. You <i>still gotta teach the guy/girl </i> how to do the job. Am I completely off, or does this make sense to you all too?

With that said, how impossible is it for someone who's got a resume with enough experience (though not necessairly in hosp) in customer service and other jobs that have required responsibility to be hired? Especially if you don't have to teach him how to make a martini or cut the limes the right way?

Feel free to enlighten me and/or burst my bubble.... for the record, I'm a young working professional looking to bartend as a side gig.

thanks in advance.

[Fat Guy]

I can't think of a single state that requires a license.

I guess it doesn't make much sense to require a license. I mean, what interest does the state have in whether or not someone can mix an Old Fashioned properly? Still, I assumed maybe there were some required safety courses or some such. I guess not.

[beans]

First off, I'm a tad errant by not stating:

Welcome to eG live2eat!

Back to business.

But here's my question:  Is the server who has now moved up to behind the bar is no more (or less) skilled in the actual trade of bartending (and in terms of mixology) than the fresh-faced bartending school grad?  They may have picked up how to make a drink or three (or more!), but so has the b-school grad.  Neither has had time behind the bar.  The only difference is that the server has proven themselves to be a worthy and dependable <i>employee</i>,  while the guy waving the certificate hasn't.  NEITHER has experience.  I'm getting the impression that the "read between the lines" message about getting hired in many places has naught to do with experience, but to do with one's dependability.  'Cuz hell, the guy you moved from the floor to the behind the bar can't pour a drink or replace a keg any better than anyone else.  You <i>still gotta teach the guy/girl </i> how to do the job.  Am I completely off, or does this make sense to you all too?

The server that gets promoted to being behind the bar really does maintain more skills than a green, inexperienced bartending school graduate.

Servers possess: Knowledge and experience with set up, inventory (do we stock Louis XIII?) type of business the bar does, POS, regulars and menus. Plus, servers often ice their glassware, fill their own wash and garnish accordingly (their guests' cocktails from the service bar) and have experience with when business is booming and the bar is getting slammed with customers. And with the stamp of approval from management for a server to be promoted to bartending, they must have already demonstrated the required ability of successful multi-tasking and outstanding cash handling skills.

Learning how to mix drinks is only one facet of bartending, as well as being a walking database of recipes does not make one a bartender.

Newly hired bartenders go through a training period of about five days (including a few follows of opening/closing) so they become comfortable with the POS, house recipes, procedures, etc. regardless of their years of experience. Some may need less time, but this is so that all are on the same page and each and every employee receives the same, consistent training of the standard operational procedures. How else can measures of performance be applied?

With that said, how impossible is it for someone who's got a resume with enough experience (though not necessairly in hosp) in customer service and other jobs that have required responsibility to be hired?  Especially if you don't have to teach him how to make a martini or cut the limes the right way?

Without prior restaurant experience, even as a server, being hired into a bartending position would be quite difficult, if not impossible.

For instance here is a cut and paste anecdote of mine from another forum in a place I worked two years ago where training was non-existant....

Case in point. This past summer two good looking, smart kids applied for the

extra "slack" shifts at this place I worked. We had three full timers, which

could handle a busy six day schedule, but the owner realized that

occassionally one of us would like a day off.

These two bs'd their way in and got on the schedule. Ohmygod! Relieving

bartenders found a mess of excessive garbage, the walk-in empty, the beer

bottle coolers very low on stock, and no ice in the ice wells. When these two

were forced to stick around to prep the bar for the next shift, they were in

angry screaming tears. Not to mention our liquor cost for that week for all

of their mistake drinks. One of them actually asked me what was in a 7 & 7.

They lied about having any experience and became the most vicious pit vipers

when they were clearly in the weeds. (I stopped by for a sweatshirt I left

the night before during one of their shifts and was inundated with a barrage

of help me's with this and with that). Our customers paid the price too and I

was subjected to a large number of complaints of never returning again because

they were unable to receive decent service and drinks.

Once these kids owned up to their bravado of well toned experience, or lack

thereof, each of us had to spend our day off nursing them along on from

everything of how to haul out garbage, why each and every bottle has it's very

own place to where the light switch was. No thanks to repeating that anytime

soon. The owner felt so bad for them she couldn't fire them.

Bartenders do not like to work with a self proclaimed all knowing and all

experienced bartender who hasn't even seen the ugly side of battle in the

trenches. (The fun things like when the ice machine craps out; the soda gun

shoots soda uncontrollably; your POS system crashes; there are 200 screaming

customers whistling at you like they lost their dog and only you are the sole

bartender.... you get the picture).

Good luck.

edit -- my mind is stuck on holiday baking and may be lacking focus.

Edited December 23, 2003 by beans (log)

[live2eat]

Beans, thanks for your reply! You seem to be a wealth of knowledge (no sarcasm intended). I believe I've caught a post or two of yours on webtender.

I see your point. But hear me out...

What I essentially meant to say is that there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of experience that the server has that a new guy cannot learn. What's stocked/what's not, where things go, how to take out the garbage/wipe the counter. This, and other things, can be learned fairly quickly. No, he won't have the rapport with your existing customers or any other site-specific knowledge, I agree. But nobody seems to make the distinction (when talking about new hires) between skills/knowledge (tangible stuff), vs. just how good of a worker is to begin with. My point is that the reason bars like to hire with experience is not only because they don't have to train (how REALLY bad could the training be? you said five days? maybe a week? two?) them on the specifics, but more so because the experience has said they're a decent employee.

Your horror story with the two schmucks illustrates my point: those two kids were schmucks. Good-looking/intelligent as they may have been, they were fully incapable of being decent employees (much less bartenders). Had they taken any other job, they most likely would failed at it as well. Remembering to take out the trash, re-stock, fill the ice-bucket, deal with screaming masses of people, these are things they should have been able to do (maybe not the screaming masses, but it doesn't take bartending to be able to do that), whether or not they knew how to mix a drink.

It just seems that the hospitality industry has had a difficult time finding quality people (and bartending being one of those positions where quality people are not only helpful but required), and so they will only hire those with experience; because that prior experience has proven their worth as an employee.

My contention (no I don't give up easily): Can't bartending be learned on the job by a qualified (in terms of people skills/responsibility/work ethic) candidate, regardless of experience, in a relatively short amount of time? In other words, bartending requires a specific skill set... why is it so difficult for someone with the right skills to learn on the job?

I'm not presumptious enough to declare I have those skills. Nor do I have the gall to state that bartenders with 10 years of experience under their belt aren't any better than those with few. But when it comes down to "can he do a decent job?", isn't it more about the skills the employee has than anything else? Experience only demonstrates he/she has them and removes the learning curve. But given an employer who might be convinced to train (which is hard to find, I admit), isn't the rest just up to the quality of the candidate?

At this point, I've no problem with starting as a barback. But I'm tired of stories of incompetent people who try bartending and fail and experienced hands declaring that it's because they didn't have experience. Might it be simply because those people were simply incompetent?

looking fowards to the replies (while remaining doggedly optimistic and slightly stubborn). live2eat.

[live2eat]

For the record, I believe Washington State requires a licence to bartend (thanks to posts on webtender), but that's more of a safety-type "wash your hands before you stick it into the ice bucket" kind of license. I've also read through Miss Charming's pages, no need to rehash/repost. The only fly in my ointment from her page seems to be people who resent having to train you, even tho you might learn well and learn quickly. The above argument still stands. =p

[beans]

My contention (no I don't give up easily): Can't bartending be learned on the job by a qualified (in terms of people skills/responsibility/work ethic) candidate, regardless of experience, in a relatively short amount of time? In other words, bartending requires a specific skill set... why is it so difficult for someone with the right skills to learn on the job?

Oh yes bartending is very much a learning on the job position.

However without previous restaurant experience, as with my example of that lovely young couple, they had *no idea* what it involved as they've never even waited on tables previous to landing this situation. Their hire was a huge failure to the bar owner -- upset and disgruntled employees picking up the slack, loss of business with upset customers and higher liquor cost (the highest I've ever seen it). It was a very expensive undertaking for that bar owner.

Something else to consider: bartenders have a direct hand on profit and managers/owners are leary to hire some straight off the street unknown without a previous food and beverage position track record. Trustworthiness is a biggie. Heck even with excellent references that eagle eye watches you until management/owners have achieved some level of comfort and confidence with the good hire or shouldn't have hired cognitive dissonance. You are handling expensive inventory and *large* sums of cash.

For the sake of probability, there must be a bar somewhere that is willing to hire one that has never previously worked in the food and beverage biz. However I would tend to think it would be the small, mom-and-pop sort. One family I worked for did do this, but it was for the day shifts that their seasoned bar staff refused to work (less business volume = less $$$ in the tip jar). The newbies eventually wised up and quit to move onto bigger and better situations. Their day staff schedule was a continuous revolving door of new names.

[beans]

For the record, I believe Washington State requires a licence to bartend (thanks to posts on webtender), but that's more of a safety-type "wash your hands before you stick it into the ice bucket" kind of license. I've also read through Miss Charming's pages, no need to rehash/repost. The only fly in my ointment from her page seems to be people who resent having to train you, even tho you might learn well and learn quickly. The above argument still stands. =p

That is sort of different. I'm TiPS and TAM (Alaska specific) certified. The State of Washington makes this sort of training required, as did Alaska. That is a good thing.

FAQs

Providers for Training

Training for Intervention ProcedureS and Techniques in Alcohol Management -- It is all about identifying behavioural cues of intoxication, understanding BAC and the affects of the absorption of alcohol, intervention strategies preventing alcohol-related problems (drunk driving), reviewing specific state and/or municipal/burrough/county (if applicable) laws, and provide information about proper identification in an effort to prevent underaged drinking (not about washing your hands when handling ice ).

[JAZ]

My contention (no I don't give up easily): Can't bartending be learned on the job by a qualified (in terms of people skills/responsibility/work ethic) candidate, regardless of experience, in a relatively short amount of time? In other words, bartending requires a specific skill set... why is it so difficult for someone with the right skills to learn on the job?

I'm not presumptious enough to declare I have those skills. Nor do I have the gall to state that bartenders with 10 years of experience under their belt aren't any better than those with few. But when it comes down to "can he do a decent job?", isn't it more about the skills the employee has than anything else?

Not that I'm a professional bartender, as beans and some of the other posters are, but I've spent my fair share of time in high end retail (currently cookware) and I also have much experience with a variety of bars (no, not what you think -- my SO is in wine and spirits sales and has also bartended at a few places).

My advice would be to develop relationships at small neighborhood bars and try to parlay that into a part time job. While beans's comments are dead-on for the high-volume, high-end type places where she works, I think the smaller, less demanding places might be more welcoming to a determined, ambitious and hard-working beginner.(god knows, some of the places I've been have total dolts behind the bar -- I don't care how "green" you are, you couldn't be less experienced than some of the "bartenders" I've seen).

So, maybe it's a little place, maybe you get the crappy shifts to start with. If you can do the job, you'll get recognition on way or the other -- either the owner will see you have potential, or the customers will start to spout off about how great you are.

My two cents' worth? Skip bartending school (unless you live in New York and want to experiencethis great course) but work on cultivating relationships at small, lower volume places to start.

[beans]

My two cents' worth? Skip bartending school (unless you live in New York and want to experiencethis great course) but work on cultivating relationships at small, lower volume places to start.

Any particular reason why you would recommend that class -- Cocktails in the Country?

Two short days of "training" doesn't make one a bartender.

"This is a realistic course in bartending--what it takes to be a bartender, dealing with customers, cocktail methodology, remembering drink recipes, product knowledge, etc. And while it may seem like a lot to whack back in two short days, Regan somehow makes it all easy to swallow. Plus, the various cocktails sampled throughout the course ensure that while you may not remember everything, you'll certainly have an unforgettable time.

emphasis mine.

This seems like a week-end getaway, bed and breafast situation with some entertaining instruction that is sponsored by distillers. (Diageo being a biggie).

You are limo-ed around, eat a four course dinner (breakfast the next day too) and have "luxury" accommodations.

[GordonCooks]

Here's a simple guideline for securing a bartender's job in any city except NY, LA, and Miami.

1.) Attend bartending school

2.) Don't tell anyone you attended bartending school.

3.) Apply at desired locale, profess huge amounts of skill from working at all the hottest nightclubs on NY, LA, and Miami.

4.) When asked for references, tell them your manager isn't with that bar anymore.

5.) After being hired, and the other bartenders discover your actual skill level. Bring them coffee, don't use their silver, and stay out of their way.

Or - if you are a just 21 cover girl. Tell the owner you have a penchant for 40ish guys in warm-up suits and you really think he's cute.

At least, this seems to be the formula for more than half of the folks I've shared the pine with.

[beans]

Or - if you are a just 21 cover girl. Tell the owner you have a penchant for 40ish guys in warm-up suits and you really think he's cute.

Gordon, you hit the nail on the head with the owner of the restaurant wherein I collect my pay! (all blonds too) They will work out for about three shifts until the bar manager will catch them making a Strawberry Daiquiri with oj and then they will be offered a hostess and/or beer barrel girl position. (seriously, this has happened, and more than once too)

****

Yup, a mom-and-pop sort of place may be the way to go. But then that's the sort shot-n-beer kind of joint, and not much on the learning/applying much of the cocktailian skills one may be seeking to get out of it as a "stepping stone."

And another short word on the reality and today's current economic condition -- it is discouraging. I do know of many in the biz not at the same earnings mark as in previous years. There are by far more hunting for a new gig than there are available positions. Even 10+ years of experience tenders are taking a few weeks in securing a worthwhile job that will support and sustain them financially (often working for 2 different bars as well). In the past years I've been with or no longer with my employer, the two year minimum similar experience was a deterrent to most applicants. Last season, the majority of applicants were all seasoned mixologists with a proven track record.

[phaelon56]

Something else to consider: bartenders have a direct hand on profit and managers/owners are leary to hire some straight off the street unknown without a previous food and beverage position track record.

This point is SO crucial. Liquor sales are one of the largest potential sources of profit for a restaurantyet the bar operation is also the area that can bury a business in red ink if someone untrustworthy gets involved. So many cash transactions, pricey yet portable (and easily resalable) inventory ....

When I waited table the only people who got to move up from the ranks of servers to work on the bar were known quantities to the restaurant owner - people he had some direct or indirect personal connection to.

[Suzanne F]

The only difference is that the server has proven themselves to be a worthy and dependable <i>employee</i>, while the guy waving the certificate hasn't. NEITHER has experience. I'm getting the impression that the "read between the lines" message about getting hired in many places has naught to do with experience, but to do with one's dependability.

Yes yes yes. Almost anyone with a brain can learn a job; but the right attitude and dependability are what you need to keep it.

[Marlene]

The rules vary from Province to Province in Canada

this is taken from the Federal Human Resources site:

Employment requirements

Completion of secondary school may be required.

Completion of college or other program in bartending

or

Completion of courses in mixing drinks is usually required.

Responsible beverage service certification may be required.

When I went to Hotel and Restaurant Managment College, bartending was a required course, and and both certificates were required if you wanted to be employed as a bartender. That was 25 years ago or so

I know that today, anyone serving drinks (as a bartender or waitstaff) in an Ontario casino or racetrack is required to have completed the Responsible Beverage Service Certification.

[DrinkBoy]

Any particular reason why you would recommend that class -- Cocktails in the Country?

I too would recommend folks attend Gary's "Cocktails in the Country" course.

No, it isn't a "bartenders" school, nor do you get any sort of certified diploma upon completion. You aren't taught to memorize hundreds of recipes, nor are you taught how to make change, swap beer kegs, or deal with problem customers.

What you "are" taught, is a better understanding of "Quality" cocktails and bartending. Essentially, all the stuff that a "bartender school" -doesn't- teach you.

Even if you are already a career bartender, I would recommend this course as a fun "refresher". And yes, it is fun.

Gary also used much of his training material for this course as the basis of his recent book: "The Joy Of Mixology"

If you sign up, tell em who sent you

-Robert Hess

www.DrinkBoy.com

[beans]

No, it isn't a "bartenders" school, nor do you get any sort of certified diploma upon completion. You aren't taught to memorize hundreds of recipes, nor are you taught how to make change, swap beer kegs, or deal with problem customers.

What you "are" taught, is a better understanding of "Quality" cocktails and bartending. Essentially, all the stuff that a "bartender school" -doesn't- teach you.

Even if you are already a career bartender, I would recommend this course as a fun "refresher". And yes, it is fun.

Gary also used much of his training material for this course as the basis of his recent book: "The Joy Of Mixology"

Ooooh Robert! Thank you. (I LOVE seeing you around here!!!!)

Gary kinda looks like a wildman, and yes the class did sound like fun would be had by all. I wondered if there was something about it that made it clearly stand out as education/vocational training to bartending career success.

I had queneau's, yours, George's, Dan's and Cheryl's (only to name a few)assistance along with an interest to learn more than three ways I can use my die cut beer bottle opener in order to open bottles the fastest. And of course Dale DeGroff and Robert Plotkin publications.

[DrinkBoy]

Gary kinda looks like a wildman...

A wildman perhaps, but a fun one... and as you can see here, he's recently had a haircut and shave, so perhaps he doesn't look quite so wild