Attacking Italian Restaurants

Adam Balic · December 18, 2003

Sam K, in re your long post of Dec 17 2003, 11:08 AM (my time), what are you trying to demonstrate through this analysis? If I may recap, I believe I said that there's a large Italian population in the US and a tiny French population, yet there are more excellent French restaurants in the US than Italian ones. You asserted that there are more excellent Italian ones. I pointed to one possible measure, the star systems that American newspapers use, which of course radically and emphatically supports the notion that French and French-influenced Nouvelle-American restaurants dominate the top category. I also believe they dominate at the three and two star level, though we'd have to check. You responded by saying that with the star system the deck is stacked in favor of French restaurants. Okay, fine. Let's assume that (we can come back to it later). Now where's your evidence that there are all these great Italian restaurants outnumbering the French ones? Where can we look for these lists? At least, can someone name a bunch?

I still think that this is fairly meaningless analysis. Like I said before, French cuisine has dominated upper end dining for the last 150 years in the Western world. So why wouldn't French dominate? It would be damn suprising if it didn't.

robyn · December 18, 2003

ah ha! So this proves that Chicago is not only the best restaurant town, but has the best Italian restaurant in the country!
Score:
Chicago - 40 stars
SF - 20 stars
NYC - 16 stars
A star is a star right.
Actually Spiaggia is a bit French and a bit Italian. If it was in Italy Michelin would give it 2 stars.

I've never eaten in Spiaggia. Just Cafe Spiaggia. A delightful place to have a 2 hour lunch when I want to rest my feet when I'm shopping/doing museums/whatever in Chicago (I'm not from Chicago - just like to visit). It is very close to what you'll get doing a 2 hour lunch in a good restaurant in Italy - the food is not too fancy - and it's delicious. Robyn

slkinsey · December 18, 2003

Now where's your evidence that there are all these great Italian restaurants outnumbering the French ones? Where can we look for these lists? At least, can someone name a bunch?

D'oh! Sorry, Steven -- my fault. I was insufficiently clear. When I said "I would bet you that there are more excellent Italian-American restaurants in America than there are excellent French restaurants" I did not necessarily mean to equate "excellence" with fine dining of the multiple-starred variety. What I meant to convey is that of restaurants which are excellent in their own way, and primarily at a one-star or lower level, there are more Italian-American places of quality in the US than there are French. Because the fact is that, outside of a handfull of major cities, there are practically no French restaurants of quality at the one-star level and below whereas most cities have plenty of reasonably good Italian-American (although not Italian) places.

At the "fine dining" multiple-starred level, it is quite clear that French restaurants dominate. I would suggest, and indeed have been suggesting, that this "fine dining" multiple-star model is an inherrently French one and therefore it comes as no surprize that French restaurants dominate in this arena. I would further suggest, and have been suggesting, that the fine dining multiple-star model is so inherrently French that it is virtually impossible for an Italian restaurant to attain four stars from the New York Times (or the equivalent) without sacrificing some of its Italianità. And I would even further suggest that many of the high rated, multiple-starred fine dining establishments across America are only French in the sense of being a part of the international style of neo-French cooking exported and promulgated by the inventors of high restaurant culture, as opposed to being related to the actual cooking of France and French people.

siena_us · December 18, 2003

For example, there is no American equivalent of the vacca rossa and so we cannot have a real Fiorentina here.

Just a small correction, the Fiorentina should be from a chianina cow. They are beautiful creatures (HUGE) You can read about them in ItalianHERE

menton1 · December 18, 2003

D'oh! Sorry, Steven -- my fault. I was insufficiently clear. When I said "I would bet you that there are more excellent Italian-American restaurants in America than there are excellent French restaurants" I did not necessarily mean to equate "excellence" with fine dining of the multiple-starred variety. What I meant to convey is that of restaurants which are excellent in their own way, and primarily at a one-star or lower level, there are more Italian-American places of quality in the US than there are French. Because the fact is that, outside of a handfull of major cities, there are practically no French restaurants of quality at the one-star level and below whereas most cities have plenty of reasonably good Italian-American (although not Italian) places.
At the "fine dining" multiple-starred level, it is quite clear that French restaurants dominate. I would suggest, and indeed have been suggesting, that this "fine dining" multiple-star model is an inherrently French one and therefore it comes as no surprize that French restaurants dominate in this arena. I would further suggest, and have been suggesting, that the fine dining multiple-star model is so inherrently French that it is virtually impossible for an Italian restaurant to attain four stars from the New York Times (or the equivalent) without sacrificing some of its Italianità. And I would even further suggest that many of the high rated, multiple-starred fine dining establishments across America are only French in the sense of being a part of the international style of neo-French cooking exported and promulgated by the inventors of high restaurant culture, as opposed to being related to the actual cooking of France and French people.

Sam-- all we want are the names!! :smile:

Boris_A · December 18, 2003

Real Italian vs. adapted Italian:

taste:

I have friends from Parma. When I go to dine Italian here (northern Switzerland), dishes are always too salty for them.

But people here tends to like more salt. And they love acidic salads with a lot of vinegar. So the Italian restaurant have to adapt. The lack of truly original ingredients adds here too.

French cuisine:

I agree with Samuel. FC (Escoffier, Nouvelle C, ...) is the only "traditional/national/regional" cuisine where innovation is a decisive factor. FC is truly international style. As soon as you consider FC like French "home" cooking regional style, I'd expect the same effect as with Italian adapted cuisine.

Fat Guy: There seems to be no empirical data to support the claim that Italians care more about food than Americans.

I can't say anything about American quality standards. In an earlier post, I tried to make a point that chain food stores operating in both parts (Italian/German) of my country have to offer better product quality in the Italian region. This is true not only for Italian products, but interestingly for products originating of the German part as well. (Emmental cheese, f.e.)

giovanni · December 18, 2003

... one of the more common things you will hear said about Michelin-starred restaurants in Italy is: "it's not really Italian food."
...(he has [batali], by the way, said a number of times that he thinks the Michelin Guide is screwing up restaurants in Italy and causing them to offer food that isn't really very Italian).

Esatto!!!

Sono sicuro che ci sia qualquno qui nel filo che ha mangiato al famoso Enoteca Pinchiorri a Firenze (due stelle). A me, quello non e cibo italiano --- e cibo francese! Si puo dire la stessa cosa di tanti altri ristoranti "stellati" dalla Michelin, come La Tenda Rossa (due stelle) a Cerbaia (Toscana). Mi dispiace di usare l'italiano, ma mi ha sembrato giusto per questo soggetto particolare....

Boris_A · December 18, 2003

Si puo dire la stessa cosa di tanti altri ristoranti "stellati" dalla Michelin

That's why Gambero Rosso is more important than Michelin in Italy.

E un minuto di silenzio per Peppino Cantarelli. Due stelle per una cucina Emigliana proprio tradizionalissimo. Nemmeno Michelin a potuto ignorare.

slkinsey · December 18, 2003

... one of the more common things you will hear said about Michelin-starred restaurants in Italy is: "it's not really Italian food."
...(he has [batali], by the way, said a number of times that he thinks the Michelin Guide is screwing up restaurants in Italy and causing them to offer food that isn't really very Italian).
Esatto!!!
Sono sicuro che ci sia qualquno qui nel filo che ha mangiato al famoso Enoteca Pinchiorri a Firenze (due stelle). A me, quello non e cibo italiano --- e cibo francese! Si puo dire la stessa cosa di tanti altri ristoranti "stellati" dalla Michelin, come La Tenda Rossa (due stelle) a Cerbaia (Toscana). Mi dispiace di usare l'italiano, ma mi ha sembrato giusto per questo soggetto particolare....

For the non-Italophiles:

"I am sure that there is someone here in this thread who has eaten at the famous Enoteca Pinchiorri in Florence (two stars). To me, that is not Italian food -- it's French food! One may say the same thing about other restaurants "starred" by Michelin, such as La Tenda Rossa (two stars) in Cerbaia (Tuscany). I'm sorry to use Italian, but it seemed just to me for this particular subject."

slkinsey · December 18, 2003

E un minuto di silenzio per Peppino Cantarelli. Due stelle per una cucina Emigliana proprio tradizionalissimo. Nemmeno Michelin a potuto ignorare.

And again...

"And a minute of silence for Peppino Cantarelli. Two stars for an very traditional Emilian kitchen. Not even Michelin could ignore it."

Okay, guys. Basta con la lingua Italiana! eGullet is an English-language board. If you want to make occasional rare comments in Italian, you must provide a full translation in English. And yes, I know that I was the one who opened Pandora's box on this thread. :raz: But if we're not careful, Pan will start posting things about us in languages we don't have the slightest hope of understanding. :wink:

Craig Camp · December 18, 2003

fate bravi ragazzi - englese per piacere.

I don't think we are here to debate the guides. There are many other treads in that regard. Let's try to stay on the topic, which seems to be quite big enough on its own.

Jonathan Day · December 18, 2003

3 Economies of scale have produced an expectation of cheap food which has turned into a demand.
4 Americans have adopted a life style which leaves little time for cooking, and so they buy their meals ready made. (Surveys continually bear this out, and the trend is accellerating.)
5 A prosperous and vocal minority resists these trends and has gradually set up alternative sources. They are not cheap. The traditional food of peasants can now be afforded only by the rich.
I say America -- but all of the above are increasingly true of the rest of the world as well.

These points are supported in an extensive "survey of food" in the most recent Economist. Its focus is on Britain, but it extends to many other countries. Unforutnately viewing the full survey requires a paid subscription, but the start of the survey can be found here.

An article in the inaccessible part of the survey describes the trend toward pre-prepped food, e.g. peeled and trimmed carrots, lettuces that are ready to eat without washing, meats ready to drop into the pan. These are increasingly available in France as well.

robyn · December 18, 2003

... one of the more common things you will hear said about Michelin-starred restaurants in Italy is: "it's not really Italian food."
...(he has [batali], by the way, said a number of times that he thinks the Michelin Guide is screwing up restaurants in Italy and causing them to offer food that isn't really very Italian).
Esatto!!!
Sono sicuro che ci sia qualquno qui nel filo che ha mangiato al famoso Enoteca Pinchiorri a Firenze (due stelle). A me, quello non e cibo italiano --- e cibo francese! Si puo dire la stessa cosa di tanti altri ristoranti "stellati" dalla Michelin, come La Tenda Rossa (due stelle) a Cerbaia (Toscana). Mi dispiace di usare l'italiano, ma mi ha sembrato giusto per questo soggetto particolare....

That isn't only true of Italy - it's true just about everywhere. When I first went to the UK and Spain for example - I ate a lot of lousy French food at starred Michelin restaurants. It finally dawned on me that Michelin simply wasn't very good in rating local cuisine outside of France and other areas in Europe where the food was basically French.

Furthermore - I don't think anything has changed in the last 20 years. I am going to London this spring for a week - and a large number of the most highly-rated restaurants there are (no surprise) French. Gayot is even more "French-centric" than Michelin. So rather than rely on the French arbiters of stars and points - my husband and I are deciding what kinds of foods 1) we really want to eat; 2) we can't get at home; and 3) that the UK is known for. Indian food is an obvious example. So is British food (I love lamb - and it's hard to beat the UK when it comes to lamb). Then we're reading articles/reviews in magazines and on line so we can make decisions.

By the way - I can read and write Spanish - and read Italian - but if you feel compelled to write in Italian - I think it would be useful if you'd translate what you've written. Robyn

giovanni · December 19, 2003

... rather than rely on the French arbiters of stars and points - my husband and I are deciding what kinds of foods 1) we really want to eat; 2) we can't get at home; and 3) that the UK is known for. ... Then we're reading articles/reviews in magazines and on line so we can make decisions.
By the way - I can read and write Spanish - and read Italian - but if you feel compelled to write in Italian - I think it would be useful if you'd translate what you've written. Robyn

Sorry for the Italian and the missing translation. Guess my Italo-American blood got caught up in the moment....

My hat is off to you and your husband. Seems to me that's exactly the way to approach a culinary adventure.... and the same way my wife and I try to do our pre-travel planning, whether in Italy, here in the States, or elsewhere. I wish more people would do the same....

robyn · December 19, 2003

Sorry for the Italian and the missing translation. Guess my Italo-American blood got caught up in the moment....
My hat is off to you and your husband. Seems to me that's exactly the way to approach a culinary adventure.... and the same way my wife and I try to do our pre-travel planning, whether in Italy, here in the States, or elsewhere. I wish more people would do the same....

Don't worry. We loved travel in Italy - and Italians in general. It is *so* different than travel in France. I am pretty good at travel plans - and my husband is pretty good at languages. So we always split things up. I'd learn about places - and he'd learn as much of the language as he could. He is fluent in Spanish - so he managed to learn about equal amounts of French and Italian before we went to France and Italy.

In France - well the truth of the matter is people were frequently - but not always - obnoxious (some places were better than others). Pretending they couldn't understand his French - pretending they couldn't speak any English (when they really could) - etc. - etc. In contrast - when we were in Italy - people were always delighted to hear his Italian - they helped him when he made mistakes - and they even tried to talk with me even though I can only speak Spanish. I guess it is the difference between people who genuinely like life - and people who don't.

We were in Enoteca in Florence - and I agree with you about the food. We were staying at the Villa San Michele in Fiesole. The food was more "Italian" at the Villa San Michele when we were there - and much better.

But the absolute best kind of meals we had in Italy would go something like this. We'd be driving - and we'd get lost in the middle of nowhere. We'd stop at a place for lunch that had a fair number of cars parked there. At one such meal - we simply asked them to serve us the house specialties. First they brought out an enormous bowl of pasta. It was delicious - but we didn't know how we'd finish it. We finished it. Then they brought us out little roasted birds (I don't even know what they were). Again - delicious. We didn't know how we'd finish them - but we did. Ended with a bit of dessert and coffee.

Seemed to me that this was the essence of Italian cooking: local, fresh, relatively simple, and delicious. We don't have any Italian restaurants like that where we live. Luckily - it is not terribly difficult to make some of these things at home (for example - I grow my own basil - and make fresh pesto all summer - if we have the time - we make fresh pasta to go with it - if we don't have the time - we buy decent dried Italian pasta). Obviously I can't get all the ingredients one would find in Italy. But it is more important to remember the concepts - local - fresh and relatively simple - and to use what's available to you - than to try to make exact duplicates of meals you can't possibly duplicate. For example - we have excellent local shrimp - not the same as Italian - but better to use our local fresh shrimp than 3 month old frozen Italian (if we could get them - and we can't).

Anyway - I thank Italy for teaching me about eating - and cooking - and having a good time.

By the way - what part of the United States do you live in (I live in north Florida)? Happy Holidays, Robyn

P.S. In all this talk of Italian and French restaurants in the United States - no one has mentioned restaurants in cities like Boston and Philadelphia. Both have large Italian/American populations. I lived in both cities when I was younger - much younger - about 30 years younger - and I remember both cities having good Italian restaurants. Does anyone know whether that is still true?

menton1 · December 23, 2003

In France - well the truth of the matter is people were frequently - but not always - obnoxious (some places were better than others). Pretending they couldn't understand his French - pretending they couldn't speak any English (when they really could) -

I have to take issue with this. This is more stereotype than fact. I have traveled extensively throughout France, and I've encountered an obnoxious person there about as often as I encounter one in New York, Rome, or Venice. The French are quite tickled when I attempt to communicate with them in their native tongue. I know they do dislike loud Americans who assume that everyone in France speaks English. As a rule, the French have a very polite, reserved society-- Americans are far, far more rude and brusque than the French. I won't go into detail here, but I have had numerous experiences in France where someone (not in the tourist industry) has gone above and beyond to be extremely friendly and helpful to me. People are really similar everywhere, and I've always had mostly wonderful encounters with the French people.

Craig Camp · December 23, 2003

In France - well the truth of the matter is people were frequently - but not always - obnoxious (some places were better than others). Pretending they couldn't understand his French - pretending they couldn't speak any English (when they really could) -
I have to take issue with this. This is more stereotype than fact. I have traveled extensively throughout France, and I've encountered an obnoxious person there about as often as I encounter one in New York, Rome, or Venice. The French are quite tickled when I attempt to communicate with them in their native tongue. I know they do dislike loud Americans who assume that everyone in France speaks English. As a rule, the French have a very polite, reserved society-- Americans are far, far more rude and brusque than the French. I won't go into detail here, but I have had numerous experiences in France where someone (not in the tourist industry) has gone above and beyond to be extremely friendly and helpful to me. People are really similar everywhere, and I've always had mostly wonderful encounters with the French people.

Ditto for me. I have been treated with nothing but kindness during my many visits to France.

I do make a point to never eat in Italian restaurants there though. :wink:

Fat Guy · December 23, 2003

I think "Are French people rude to tourists?" is the current hot discussion topic over on the National Association of Trolls site. I can't imagine we're going to get anywhere with that debate here on eGullet.

tsquare · December 23, 2003

P.S. In all this talk of Italian and French restaurants in the United States - no one has mentioned restaurants in cities like Boston and Philadelphia. Both have large Italian/American populations. I lived in both cities when I was younger - much younger - about 30 years younger - and I remember both cities having good Italian restaurants. Does anyone know whether that is still true?

With all the talk about U.S. - the topic is "outside of Italy". The new Gourmet makes it sound like Toronto does a mighty fine job with Italian cuisine. Speak up our Northern neighbors!

robyn · December 23, 2003

I have to take issue with this. This is more stereotype than fact. I have traveled extensively throughout France, and I've encountered an obnoxious person there about as often as I encounter one in New York, Rome, or Venice. The French are quite tickled when I attempt to communicate with them in their native tongue. I know they do dislike loud Americans who assume that everyone in France speaks English. As a rule, the French have a very polite, reserved society-- Americans are far, far more rude and brusque than the French. I won't go into detail here, but I have had numerous experiences in France where someone (not in the tourist industry) has gone above and beyond to be extremely friendly and helpful to me. People are really similar everywhere, and I've always had mostly wonderful encounters with the French people.

Not stereotype. But our bad experiences in France were certainly more in Paris than smaller cities and the countryside. So perhaps it's a city/country issue - and not a national issue. Doesn't much matter to me personally these days in terms of the way I travel (and I am also too old to worry about it). Robyn

Craig Camp · December 24, 2003

I have to take issue with this. This is more stereotype than fact. I have traveled extensively throughout France, and I've encountered an obnoxious person there about as often as I encounter one in New York, Rome, or Venice. The French are quite tickled when I attempt to communicate with them in their native tongue. I know they do dislike loud Americans who assume that everyone in France speaks English. As a rule, the French have a very polite, reserved society-- Americans are far, far more rude and brusque than the French. I won't go into detail here, but I have had numerous experiences in France where someone (not in the tourist industry) has gone above and beyond to be extremely friendly and helpful to me. People are really similar everywhere, and I've always had mostly wonderful encounters with the French people.
Not stereotype. But our bad experiences in France were certainly more in Paris than smaller cities and the countryside. So perhaps it's a city/country issue - and not a national issue. Doesn't much matter to me personally these days in terms of the way I travel (and I am also too old to worry about it). Robyn

Excuse me I must be lost. I'm looking for the Attacking Italian Restaurants thread. Instead I found the END of a short discussion on something to do with French people.

...ahh here is the Italian thread again.

vserna · December 24, 2003

And (picking up on the Toronto mention) I am still looking for more input on Italian restaurants abroad... but not only in New York! (And Valentino in Santa Monica... I see it's still considered the best Italian there. Goodness, I last ate there in 1984, and it was already the best Italian in LA. Are they doing things extraordinarily right, or is the LA restaurant scene much more petrified than I would have thought?)

One example: There are no fewer than four Italian restaurants in Paris which Michelin has judged worthy of one star each: the Gualtiero Marchesi clone at the Hôtel de Lotti, Carpaccio at the Royal-Monceau, Sormani and Il Cortile. Any opinions on the true culinary merits of these?

Edited December 24, 2003 by vserna (log)

menton1 · December 24, 2003

There are no fewer than four Italian restaurants in Paris which Michelin has judged worthy of one star each: the Gualtiero Marchesi clone at the Hôtel de Lotti, Carpaccio at the Royal-Monceau, Sormani and Il Cortile. Any opinions on the true culinary merits of these?

There has to be some message in this about Michelin-- In all of Rome, there are only 8 one-star restaurants (all Italian). It somehow seems peculiar that Paris would have 4 Italian 1-star, and Rome only 8. I think the Michelin system is definitely skewed toward French-style restaurants, and restaurants in France overall.

Bill Klapp · December 24, 2003

Menton 1, nothing surprising at all--Roma is a pretty crappy restaurant town for its size and prominence, while Italian food is a big growth industry in Paris while the French envy the Spanish for all of the attention they have garnered lately and plot the next new thing in French cuisine. Tourism does incredible and perhaps irreparable damage to most local cuisines in Italy.

fresco · December 24, 2003

P.S. In all this talk of Italian and French restaurants in the United States - no one has mentioned restaurants in cities like Boston and Philadelphia. Both have large Italian/American populations. I lived in both cities when I was younger - much younger - about 30 years younger - and I remember both cities having good Italian restaurants. Does anyone know whether that is still true?
With all the talk about U.S. - the topic is "outside of Italy". The new Gourmet makes it sound like Toronto does a mighty fine job with Italian cuisine. Speak up our Northern neighbors!

The arrival of 300,000-plus Italians postwar helped to transform Toronto from a dreary, puritanical place with bad food to a much more fun loving place with quite a lot of good food.

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