Absinthe: The Topic

[MaxH]

The post about China reminded me that the first true modern absinthe I tasted (25 years ago) was from that part of the world.

They were using the French brand Versinthe, which, according to the sites, has a reasonable level of thujone.

I have that brand and know it well, it was one I listed to eje in the Pastis thread here. Here's some information about it, amplifying what I posted elsewhere in 2001. (The Versinthe sold in China might be different, possibly.)

I saw Versinthe appear in US around early 2000 and researched it. The manufacturer (Liquoristerie de Provence) had (and has) a good English-language Web site as linked below (containing the typo error "45% proof" where it means "45% alcohol," not 45% Proof Spirits). Documentation from the manufacturer at the time indicated that Versinthe was fully legal in US and France, meaning it had only trace thujone content and very limited A. absinthium (common wormwood). The unusual angle was that it also claimed to use further wormwood-related mugwort herbs of genus Artemisia.

Liquoristerie de Provence English-language Web pages

[nerdy]

Kara, what was the absinthe you tried?  Was it home-made?

I ask because, I have a hard time understanding why you wouldn't like real absinthe if you like Pernod.  There are differences between, say, Pernod pastis and Pernod absinthe (Pernod is once again making absinthe).  But I wouldn't call these huge differences.  On the other hand, homemade infused absinthe tastes horrible.

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home made absinthe doesnt have to be terrible, if you know what you are doing. ive been home distilling it for years.... it had become quite popular.... is pernod making absinthe? and is pernod liqour 'pastis'? im not sure if either of these are true... if it is where did you see pernod absinthe? id love to try it.... i know vintage bottles are available, but arent cheap.

i reccomend to anyone who really wants to try it and has any bit of diy blood in them to make it yourself. (home diatillation provides the cook or chef with countless possiblities, i recently saw on iron chef america someone whip out a copper potstill and make a liqour to compliment their dish... ) once one understands the basics of the chemical process of distilation, you will see how easy it is.... ive got wild mulberry liqour on my agena for this summer... imagine that? its relatively simple and relatively inexpensive to create... as long as youve got a lil mcguyver in you and arent scared of "laws" that prohibit home distillation... the atf have bigger threats to worry about id like to think..... and after 5 years of my home distillation endeavours(sp) no one is blind, including me.... or has killed thier loved ones like that guy they based alot of the prohibition on.....

[slkinsey]

A few things:

- Yes, Pernod makes pastis. Pastis is, more or less, a lower alcohol, wormwood-free "absinthe-like" beverage that was developed by absinthe makers like Pernod after absinthe was banned in France. Pernod and Ricard are not only examples of pastis, but I would argue that they define the category.

- Yes, Pernod was originally a producer of absinthe. And, yes, they are making absinthe once again. In addition, Jade makes a "replica" bottling of absinthe that attempts to recreate the original pre-ban Pernod Fils absinthe.

- Most homemade "absinthe" is not distilled, and redistillation following infusion is necessary fo make real absinthe. Several European countries developed traditions of home-distilled absinthe during the ban years. That said, home distillation is no joke. You can hurt yourself and I wouldn't advise anyone to become involved in home distillation with a cavalier attitude or without taking the time to become properly educated and equipped. And, of course, it's against the law in significant quantities.

[nerdy]

A few things:

- Yes, Pernod makes pastis.  Pastis is, more or less, a lower alcohol, wormwood-free "absinthe-like" beverage that was developed by absinthe makers like Pernod after absinthe was banned in France.  Pernod and Ricard are not only examples of pastis, but I would argue that they define the category.

- Yes, Pernod was originally a producer of absinthe.  And, yes, they are making absinthe once again.  In addition, Jade makes a "replica" bottling of absinthe that attempts to recreate the original pre-ban Pernod Fils absinthe.

- Most homemade "absinthe" is not distilled, and redistillation following infusion is necessary fo make real absinthe.  Several European countries developed traditions of home-distilled absinthe during the ban years.  That said, home distillation is no joke.  You can hurt yourself and I wouldn't advise anyone to become involved in home distillation with a cavalier attitude or without taking the time to become properly educated and equipped.  And, of course, it's against the law in significant quantities.

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i was under the imperssion that the herbal make up of pastis is somewhat different than absinthe. its not just absinthe sans wormwood. (la fe vert .com) but im no expert.

why not home distill, i think riding a bicycle is about just as dangerous. but that said i read alot of books on moonshing. but when you distill from spirits you dont really produce a dangerous product like when you distill from a fermented wash, or so thats what i thought. i guess the danger results from alcohol vapor in an enclosed space. if your stupid enough to do that, well jets just say stupid is as stupid does. but as i said before, forget the legal aspect. no ones gonna come to your house and arrest you for making a little liqour for you and your friends. were not talking about large scale 'shining here.... this is connisour(sp?) stuff.

i read some other thread where people were really trying to convince this kid that he'd get busted for tax evasion & or health code violation for hosting some paid for private dinners in his apmnt. people are really afraid of the law.... silly. but in all reality, he'd have to be pullin in serious dough and have alot of people coming in and out b4 anyone would even think twice. people live their entire lives selling drugs. they grow old. probably have regular jobs. but they never get caught(i knew this chemist guy a long time ago...). i think taking chances is essential to the creative process. yes it may be risky, or dangerous, or kind of off kilter.... but who knows maybe it would suceed.

[slkinsey]

i was under the imperssion that the  herbal make up of pastis is somewhat different than absinthe.  its  not just absinthe sans wormwood.  (la fe vert .com) but im no expert.

From what I understand, Pernod and Ricard tweaked the formula when they transitioned from absinthe to pastis. Pastis is sweeter, lower in proof and more anise-forward than the absinthes I've tried. So, yea, it's not the same thing as "absinthe without the wormwood" but it was developed as a replacement product after the ban. I was mostly responding to your questions as to whether Pernod currently makes absinthe and whether Pernod's (now) signature product is a pastis. The answer to both is "yes."

why not home distill, i think riding a bicycle is about just as dangerous.  but that said i read alot of books on moonshing.  but when you distill from spirits you dont really produce a dangerous product like when you distill from a  fermented wash, or so thats what i thought.  i guess the danger  results from alcohol vapor in an enclosed space.  if your stupid  enough to do that,  well jets just say stupid is as stupid does.

I guess you must be talking about redistilling spirits in one of those little glass rigs you get in catalogs? Yes, I suppose it's true that there is less danger of things like methanol-induced blindness if one is redistilling a product that has already been distilled. I'd have to be convinced that the end product was worth all the cost and trouble, though. For entirely homemade rigs, there is always some risk that materials or contruction will lead to a dangerous result through contamination or fire hazard.

but as i said before, forget the legal aspect.  no ones gonna come to your house and arrest you for making a little liqour for you and your friends.  were not talking about large scale 'shining here.... this is connisour(sp?) stuff.

i read some other thread where people were really trying to convince this kid that he'd get busted for tax evasion & or health code violation for hosting some paid for private dinners in his apmnt. people are really afraid of the law....  silly.  but in all reality, he'd have to be pullin in serious dough and have alot of people coming in and out b4 anyone would even think twice.

I think it depends a lot on how much you're making, where you're making it and whether any of your neighbors decide to complain. Don't be so sure that the law doesn't care. Years ago my family was spending time in our house in the mountains of Western North Carolina and were burning a fire from logs that happened to be a little too wet. Marshals showed up to make sure we weren't 'shining.

Also, you may think it's silly to suppose that the "kid" might get busted, but don't be so sure it won't happen. All it takes is for one person to get a stomach bug, decide that it was the cook's fault and complain to the wrong person. Or, all it takes is an environment with a reactionary and hypervigilant DOH -- like we have in New York City right now -- to get wind of it. There are plenty of things that seem like they're "no big deal -- the police can't be bothered" right up to the point where the police decide they can be bothered. For example, people have been smoking cannabis on the street in NYC for decades and the police largely couldnt' care less so long as the smokers are discreet (although I wouldn't recommend doing it if a copp is standing next to you). Nevertheless, I have a friend who spent the night in jail for doing it.

[nerdy]

read up on pastis and ricard.... u r correct. ive tried both. as well as my own absinthe, artisinal spanish abinthe, horrid chezh absithe, nice pastis, and crap infused vodka "absinthe"... ( i like mine the best)

as per the law. lets just hope that they are too busy? thats jsut been my additude.

home built rigs, if constructed properly, well researched and opperated w/ proper ventilation i dont think pose much risk. ive built 3 of variying quality as my experience grew. but i may be a exception. im also not using open flame. and i use an exaust fan. and im not doing it in the woods.... if you are in moonshine teritory, yeah the rangers are gonna be lookin for those guys... but i love the fact that they still exist. we wouldnt have some of the bourbons and whiskeys we have here in the states if it wasnt for those illegal operations. gotta love it and i personnaly think preserve the spirit and idea......

[slkinsey]

home built rigs, if constructed properly, well researched and opperated w/ proper ventilation i dont think pose much risk.  ive built 3 of variying quality as my experience grew.

I think it very much depends on one's experience, expertise and knowledge in knowing how distilling works, not to mention working with metals and what metals are appropriate to use, how to ventilate properly, etc. It's not nothing.

[MaxH]

Separate "Pastis" thread has formal definitions of the word from standard sources, Grossman's US reference book Here and a standard French gastronomic encyclopedia Here.

[Mayur]

I don't see this anywhere in the thread, but any comment on the difference between Verte de Fougerolles and Blanche de Fougerolles in recipes? I've been substituting the Blanche into Attys and it works nicely, but I wasn't sure if there were a separate set of drinks that use it. Verte is clearly more of a "classic" absinthe for cocktail purposes, but I'd love some suggestions as to what to do with the blanche.

[nerdy]

from my own experience, blanche ive never tried to create or drink, but ive always sipped a little of my unfinished verte before the flavor/color round of herbs were added... its really different. it lacks the sweetness that my verte developes from the addition of licorice root. i think its closer in flavor to the pastis that ive tasted... id base drink ideas on that.

[mickblueeyes]

It is interesting to see how opinion on this spirit has changed over the years (I was one of the first posters on this thread). There is certainly a different perspective. Looks like I was just ahead of my time

Olie, who posted a while ago, has a great product that I am carrying in my shop now called Absinto Carmago. It is a Brazilian Absinthe style liqueur. The taste is very good and well styled. The mint/methol really pulls away the intensity of the herbs and anis. Great in cocktails.

[Mayur]

from my own experience, blanche ive never tried to create or drink, but ive always sipped a little of my unfinished verte before the flavor/color round of herbs were added...  its really different.  it lacks the sweetness that my verte developes from the addition of licorice root.  i think its closer in flavor to the pastis that ive tasted...  id base drink ideas on that.

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Thanks for the info!

[MaxH]

It is interesting to see how opinion on this spirit has changed over the years (I was one of the first posters on this thread). There is certainly a different perspective.

I think that depends on whose perspectives you mean, mickey. All the hard data I posted in this thread came from meanstream sources* whose upshots (relative toxicities, thujone consumed in other herbs, even absent from some commercial absinthes) have been public for between 60 and 100 years. Yet as recently as last spring, an absinthe article in the New Yorker missed most of these points, emphasizing instead the recent hobbyist and manufacturer buzz which includes some of the old misconceptions while complaining about others.

People have been trying to demystify absinthe for decades (see Grossman's books cited in another thread Here).

*USFDA data, standard scientific references, and absinthe literature reprinted in popular modern writing.

[mickblueeyes]

Max, what I mean is that I was on the side of demystifying at this thread's inception and I took a lot of heat for it from some respected members (and on other threads demystifying other spirits). I just find it interested that many of them have changed their tunes over the past few years. I can certainly appreciate the attempt to apply science to absinthe. . .I tried to do the same thing.

It never ceases to amaze me. I have worked in or been associated with the booze industry in the US for around 10 years, primarily dealing with premium wines and spirits. Almost weekly for 7 years (since Absente came out) I have had some goth kid come in to the shop and tell me "I had real Absinthe in Spain last year and I couldn't remember where I was at for 3 days". My reply is always a firm and direct "Bollocks". I have been an absinthe enthusiast for years and never had one incident of "hallucinations" or other mind-altering experiences. Anyone who tells you they have is doing drugs in addition to absinthe.

I am happy that people are finally starting to get it.

[MaxH]

Almost weekly for 7 years (since Absente came out) I have had some goth kid come in to the shop and tell me "I had real Absinthe in Spain last year and I couldn't remember where I was at for 3 days".  ...

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Interesting characterization. An independent online absinthe forum has become much busier than it was seven years ago (in 2000, before all this sudden interest, my Google searches on "absinthe" surfaced maybe five relevant hits). I mentioned it to a longtime student of absinthe, who characterized that forum nowadays as mostly goth people.

[jmfangio]

The Cocktail Chronicles has a brief bit on Ted Breaux's Lucid Absinthe, with buying information, and a link to a quick review on an absinthe forum.

[mickblueeyes]

Almost weekly for 7 years (since Absente came out) I have had some goth kid come in to the shop and tell me "I had real Absinthe in Spain last year and I couldn't remember where I was at for 3 days".  ...

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Interesting characterization. An independent online absinthe forum has become much busier than it was seven years ago (in 2000, before all this sudden interest, my Google searches on "absinthe" surfaced maybe five relevant hits). I mentioned it to a longtime student of absinthe, who characterized that forum nowadays as mostly goth people.

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That wouldn't happen to be La Fee Verte would it? I have lurked around there for many years.

[eje]

Ooo! Spooky!

It's not quite the dumbest looking bottle I've ever seen. Still, a puzzling marketing strategy for a bottle priced as a premium spirit.

Notes to follow later this week.

[BrooksNYC]

If that isn't the dumbest bottle you've ever seen, I defy you to show us a dumber one!

Happily, it's a lovely absinthe, if lighter and less complex than the Jades. For that reason, I'd recommend starting with 1 part absinthe to a scant 2 parts water (vs. the more usual ratio of 1:3). Taste, and add more water - gradually - if needed. Because of its gentle flavor profile, Lucid flattens out if you over-water it.

I don't think it needs sugar, but the camps are divided on this point.

Of the vendors listed on Lucid's web site, this place has free shipping. In my haste to order, I purchased from another vendor, and it cost me an extra $23.00.

Bringing absinthe back to the US was an arduous undertaking. Thanks and congratulations to Ted Breaux and the guys at Viridian Spirits.

Onward, upward, and cheers!

[eje]

I defy you to show us a dumber one!

I dunno, maybe the premium vodkas? Trump? Cavalli?

I'll have to think about it. I feel certain I've seen something dumber.

[...]

Of the vendors listed on Lucid's web site, this place has free shipping. In my haste to order, I purchased from another vendor, and it cost me an extra $23.00.

Bringing absinthe back to the US was an arduous undertaking. Thanks and congratulations to Ted Breaux and the guys at Viridian Spirits.

[...]

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Absolutely! I'm really looking forward to sampling it later this week.

I ordered from DrinkUpNY and had no problems, aside from the usual UPS folderol. I did kind of wish they had a more interesting selection of other spirits to pad out my order.

The bad news from their website:

DrinkUpNY is currently accepting pre-orders for our next shipment Lucid Absinthe, which is expected to arrive in the last week of July. Suppliers of this limited-production liqueur are currently out of stock in the United States, so reserve your bottles now to receive them as soon as possible.

And why do they keep calling Lucid a "liqueur"? Annoying.

Edited June 20, 2007 by eje (log)

[eas]

Once you taste the Lucid you'll see why it could be called a liqueur. Technically this could quality by TTB as a liqueur by virtue of it's sugar content, but it appears it may have been classified as a distilled spirits specialty.

Given Lucid's nuanced differences from other Ted's other Absinthe projects, its not so surprising this takes a different and contemporary packaging design. Want to see packaging that's truly base? www.krugy.com

Edited June 20, 2007 by eas (log)

[slkinsey]

If that isn't the dumbest bottle you've ever seen, I defy you to show us a dumber one!

Right here baby!

Edited June 20, 2007 by slkinsey (log)

[BrooksNYC]

My jaw has popped out of its hinges and fallen to the floor.

And now we know the trick of making the Lucid bottle look sophisticated and restrained (shopkeepers take note). When arranging the shelves, wedge Lucid between Krugy, the happy sperm cell, and Ed McMahon.

[eje]

Wow, I was just thinking of something like the dreadful "Vampire Wine" from Romania.

You two definitely have me beat with Ed McMahon and Krugy the sperm.

In any case, eas, you believe the Lucid is sweetened with sugar?

Any facts to back that up?

What are the TTB rules about amounts of sugar in things classed as liquor?

The perceived sweetness of the herbs like fennel and anise can make it tough for me to tell what is sugar and what is herbs.

By the way, one of the big differences between Lucid and the Jade products is the base alcohol. The Jade products are based on grape neutral spirits and Lucid is based on beet neutral spirits.

[MaxH]

I defy you to show us a dumber [bottle]!

Good answers already. I don't have a handy picture of it, but a liquid appeared a few years ago and surprisingly became popular in parts of the US -- it was a mixed, fruit-flavored cordial, blue, smelled to me like Hawaiian Punch, and came in a frosted bottle with scattered characters around (and an allusion somewhere to Russia) and a name that if, you took the letters as Roman, spelled something like "Hypnotic" but if you took them as Cyrillic -- and I don't know if this was a clever joke or just a coincidence -- was more like "Nurotic."

And why do they keep calling Lucid a "liqueur"?  Annoying.

I would call this less annoying, the more you know about the word "liqueur."

A youngish crowd of spirits hobbyists and bartenders has taken this word lately to mean only what it has usually, but not always, meant in North America, namely a sweetened flavored spirit, or cordial. (That narrow sense was reflected in Wikipedia, for instance, last time I looked -- one of many examples of Wikipedia offering a confident, incomplete explanation.)

More traditionally there was a wider sense of the word: a spirit, usually with strong flavor. For decades I've seen, for instance, recipes suggesting you flavor a dessert with "rum or other liqueur." "Absinthe," explains a standard medical reference (illustrating uses of the Compositae herbs), "is a liqueur containing angelica, anise, marjoram, and wormwood oils."

This wider sense of "liqueur," in other words, has long and respectable history. While it's not the way I usually use the word, a little more awareness of this wider sense might aid understanding.