Vintage Beer~

[ledervin]

I went into an allegedly self proclaimed beer store in D.C. the other day and saw for the first time beer with vintages that were meant to be aged. Never heard of this and was skeptikal to purchase a 1998 English 333ml beer for $10. How can the aging help if there is no cork to allow for air to move through?

[Rich Pawlak]

I went into an allegedly self proclaimed beer store in D.C. the other day and saw for the first time beer with vintages that were meant to be aged. Never heard of this and was skeptikal to purchase a 1998 English 333ml beer for $10. How can the aging help if there is no cork to allow for air to move through?

I have been aging beers for years in my cellar,and it all depends on the beer of course. Some English brews, like the old Thomas Hardy ales, are aging-worthy, even recommended. I'm not sure what "vintage" English stuff you're talking about, but I know Fuller's creates some vintage stuff, as does Sierra Nevada (Celebration and Bigfoot), Anchor (Our Special Ale and Old Foghorn). And they are ALL worth cellaring.

[Mayhaw Man]

Strong beers are the only thing worth aging, as most beer deteriorates rapidly due to oxidation and the closer to the aging tank the better for drinking.

I have some 7.5 oz. bottles of Andygator (Abita Brewing Co., Abita SPrings, LA) that were bottled when I was still at the brewery (which makes them at least 5 years old) and they have aged beautifully. The beer is already pretty "winey" to begin with and has a nice perle bite to it, so it is well suited for aging. It is also 9% abv, so it naturallyholds up pretty well. This beer was bottled with absorber crowns and that probably helped initially to keep 02 levels down.

Edited November 24, 2003 by Mayhaw Man (log)

[beerguyjim]

Strong beers are the only thing worth aging, as most beer deteriorates rapidly due to oxidation and the closer to the aging tank the better for drinking.

I believe there are a few exceptions, such as Berliner Weisse and lambics. Saison de Pipaix is sold in several vintages, which leads me to wonder if sourness somehow lends itself to aging.

[Rick Cook]

Hi guys,

I'm new here and saw this topic. I hope you don't mind if I jump in since this topic is a bit of a hobby.

ledervin - 1998 English 333ml beer with no cork. I'm curious, was it Lee's Harvest Ale? (though at 10 bones that's pricey).

Mayhaw - I agree that a healthy abv is generally one of the better indicators of ageability. Thankfully though, there are a few exceptions. Your mention of Andygator makes me wonder if you know a couple of LA beer geeks - John Dauenhauer and Bill Brantley.

Jim - Good call on lambic. I have a lot of them, particularly from Boon, Cantillon and Hanssen's. I've had some for about eight years now, primarily gueuze, and they've mellowed beautifully, including the Hanssen's, which tends to put the funk in funky. One of my favorites is Hanssen's Oudbeitje, made with wild strawberries.

I cellar in a commercial facility and have three 24-case lockers dedicated to beer. As time has gone on I've pretty much focused my collection on barleywines and other high octane beers, Belgians and spiced beers/holiday seasonals.

As far as aging, I tend to prefer the larger format bottles and have up to 3 liter bottles. I always buy a couple of each year's OSA in the 1.5 liter bottle and have those going back to '93. Still, I have about 40 cases of smaller bottles, ranging from nips to half-liters. I think the amount of air in the headspace definitely has an effect.

I've also found that bottle conditioned ales don't have a monopoly on ageability, as filtered lagers like Sami, EKU 28, and Kulmbacher Eisbock are showing terriffic longevity, not to mention increased complexity with age. While I'm on the subject of bottom fermenters, I love Baltic Porters and have had great success with them.

If there's an interest in cellaring beers I'd be interested in continuing this thread.

Rick

Edited November 30, 2003 by Rick Cook (log)

[beerguyjim]

I've also found that bottle conditioned ales don't have a monopoly on ageability, as filtered lagers like Sami, EKU 28, and Kulmbacher Eisbock are showing terriffic longevity, not to mention increased complexity with age. While I'm on the subject of bottom fermenters, I love Baltic Porters and have had great success with them.

Coincidentally, just the other day I asked Matthias Neidhart at B United about how a filtered beer might benefit from aging. He forwarded my question to head brewer Giles Dennis at JW Lees, and this is his response:

Where does one start, never mind finish!

Ageing is so complex and not fully understood. Yes, the beer is filtered,

but the alcohol reacts with the many flavour compounds, mostly derived from

the yeast during fermentation, present in the beer. A fitting subject for a

mature student with nothing better to do than gaze melancholically into

glasses of beer.

Perhaps a project for my retirement!

[Rich Pawlak]

Hi guys,

I'm new here and saw this topic. I hope you don't mind if I jump in since this topic is a bit of a hobby.

Oh well, there goes the neighborhood.

Folks, meet Rick Cook, from Los Angeles, and saying beer is his hobby might be the understatement of the year. He is also one of the denizens of the old Prodigy beer community, and was the originator of two tasting traditions there: "Christmas in July" , an annual tasting and discussion about winter and holiday beers in the middle of the summer; and the previously mentioned (see "Beer Here!" post) "Days of Barleywine and Roses", an annual review and tasting of big beers that Rick hosted every February.

You'll enjoy his extensive knowledge of beer styles and his experienced palate, and his detailed, picayune descriptions of what he's drinking. And yes, the man collects beer like nobody's business.

Nice to see ya, Cook!

[Rich Pawlak]

You'll enjoy his extensive knowledge of beer styles and his experienced palate, and his detailed, picayune descriptions of what he's drinking. And yes, the man collects beer like nobody's business.

Or maybe not.

[Mayhaw Man]

Mayhaw - I agree that a healthy abv is generally one of the better indicators of ageability. Thankfully though, there are a few exceptions. Your mention of Andygator makes me wonder if you know a couple of LA beer geeks - John Dauenhauer and Bill Brantley.

Yes. I know them. I met them in jail

I also know Andy Thomas, another of their cohorts (I believe that he has been released). Andy is the Andy in Andygator and his winning of a Homebrew contest in New Orleans is what got his name on the bottle (but not his recipe in the bottle, we already had that ).

Nice guys all and all avid (he says avid while looking crosseyed and thinking of all the grain they hauled off from me) and technically adept homebrewers.

Glad to have you here.

[john b]

I know next to nothing about aging beer, but I have a 1986 Thomas Hardy and a Fuller's Vintage Ale (along with a few vintages of local micro barleywines) that is about three years old. Both are in my basement, sitting upright in a dark corner.

So, the $64,000 question is...how long can/will they age?

[Rick Cook]

Always cool to get a response from a brewer. Interestingly, I've had mixed results with Lees. I had '89 and '90 Harvest Ales a few years ago that were wonderful, yet a sixer of '98 Harvest Ale that I've tried over the last few years falls way short. I bought a couple dozen bottles of the much lower abv Lees Moonraker a few years ago and it's evolving nicely.

I've visited with Bill and John half a dozen times since first meeting them in '95. Bill and his wife Carol spent a week with us in Santa Fe and Taos last May. All, including John's wife Rita, are great people. I can't get enough of New Orleans. Had my only Schlenkerla Weizen at d.b.a.

About John's beers - Temperature fluctuation is a big consideration with passive cellars. If your temp is fairly constant your beer should be in good shape. The more the temperature fluctuates, the greater the chance of damage. Also important to remember is the higher the temp, the faster the aging.

I'd open the Hardy. No good reason, I just would. As far as the Fuller's Vintage, I have that going back to the first year ('97?) and it's showing to be a beauty of an ager. I haven't been real diligent about buying every year, and I'm regretting it. What year do you have, and what are your local b/ws?

Rick

[babyluck]

Anyone read the T.C. Boyle story "Quetzacoatl Lite" about archaeologists searching for an elusive ancient can of beer? This thread just reminded me of it--great story.

[john b]

What year do you have, and what are your local b/ws?

Rick

One 2000 Fullers Vintage Ale

One 2000 Heavyweight Old Salty Barleywine

Two ???? (most likely 99 or 00) Victory Old Horizontal Barleywine

Two 1986 Thomas Hardy's Ale (6.04 oz bottles)

One 03 Dogfish Head Olde School Barleywine

Four 02 Victory Storm King Stout

I bought the Thomas Hardy's when I was in college, going through my "every week, let's drink a different beer that we've never heard of before so the chicks will think we're cool" phase. It was a great way to discover new beers, but it didn't have the intended effect on the women

[Rick Cook]

Haven't read the story, babyluck, but I've ordered Boyle's "Descent of Man" based on your recommendation and it'll be the first one I read when the book comes in.

I still have some of Victory's original Storm King bottling, John. I remember how strong the hopping was when I first received it. Imperial Stouts really benefit from time in the cellar.

We get several Victory beers in Los Angeles, including Storm King and Old Horizontal. I try to put a few of each away every year.

Haven't had the Old Salty. In fact, the only Heavyweight I have is a bottle of Perkuno's Hammer. Haven't had the Olde School either, though it's promised to me. I have some fairly old bottles of Immort Ale, plus Raison d'Etre and Worldwide. DFH is another brewery that's made inroads into L.A.

That's a nice selection of beers you have.

Rick

[budrichard]

Purchased some Japanese 'New Year Celebration Ale' 2004 'Hitachino' at Mitsua yesterday. Does this qualify? $4.69US/bottle. Lable says "Ale brewed with spices"-Dick

[Rick Cook]

Hi Dick,

Sorry for the late reply. I had the Hitachino once in December, but we'd been drinking a bit that night. I have a bottle open now, and I plan to put the rest away.

Currently the carbonation is a little on the high side, and the spicing is muddled and strong. Coriander, orange peel, nutmeg, cinnamon and vanilla bean is quite a mix, though the coriander and orange peel seem to dominate. It's a pleasant enough beer now, but I expect that age will reduce the carbonation and bring the flavors more into focus.

jmo,

Rick

[budrichard]

Rick ,thanks for the reply. My post was a bit facietious because I purchased the brew for the novelty and to have with Sashimi as a first beer, we then switched to Asahi 'SuperDry'(real 'SuperDry' from Japan) and unfiltered Sake. I don't age beer and don't plan on it in the near future. I will stick with wine. -Dick

[Rick Cook]

Hi Dick,

Facetious post or not, you selected an ageworthy beer. The high abv and spices in the Hitachino are both positives for cellaring.

Cellaring beer isn't for everyone, and I've heard "I prefer wine" several times, as though the two are mutually exclusive. I cellared beer only for several years, but the results, in combination with a curious palate, led me to do the same with wine. I started with cabs and zins, but in the last several years I've focused more on Rhones (particularly CdP), Rhone varietals, and Burgundy/Pinot Noir.

I did a tasting for several wine people at a local shop's wine bar last year. Part of the tasting was comparing current bottles of beers available in the wine shop against the same beers with a few years of age on them from my cellar. People were blown away by how much complexity the beers gained with age. If anything, there are now a few more barleywine drinkers in the world.

Sushi - I'm nuts for sushi. I most often drink beer, though sake and champagne can make for some great matches. I particularly like mackerel and sake, and salmon and rose champagne.

Rick

[Okbrewer]

Rick, I went beer hunting today and found a pretty good deal. The store I was in had 6 bottles of Fuller's Vintage Ale (2000). Fuller's normally sells for about $5.99 a bottle around here, but since this stuf was "old" it was marked down to $3.44! I bought all 6 bottles and asked if he had more, but he didn't. Saved me from having to store it for a couple of years! As it is, it's pretty near drinkable right now!

[babyluck]

Haven't read the story, babyluck, but I've ordered Boyle's "Descent of Man" based on your recommendation and it'll be the first one I read when the book comes in.

I'm so glad to hear it! The funny thing is that I was never quite sure whether his premise was fabricated or not until I saw this thread about ancient Egyptian beer a little while after this one popped up.

[Rick Cook]

Hey babyluck,

First of all, thanks very much for the Boyle recommendation. He's a little dark, and the book I read was some of his older stuff, but I really like his writing and will be picking up some more of his work. Great reading.

While beer goes back seemingly forever, canning certainly doesn't. Boyle's story strikes a nerve nonetheless with the way he captures the geekiness of the collector. Anyone who has become obsessed with trying every beer, every wine, every whatever, can relate to the enthusiasm/obsession of seeking out that prize find.

Rick