Starbucks

[Kenk]

BLECHHHHHHHHHHHH!

[bergerka]

I don't like Starbucks for regular coffee (the little coffee cart on the corner of 41st and Park has better, IMHO), but I will admit, with shame, that I am absolutely addicted to the gingerbread latte that shows up at holiday time.

With whipped cream, of course.

K

[phaelon56]

Manhattan alone has over 70 Starbucks stores - the reason they have them so close together is that they've done their homework - they know the pedestrian (or vehicular in the suburbs) traffic patterns and they put them where the numbers work for them.

There was a very interesting article a while back in the Washington Post's business section about how they choose their locations. If I can find it I will post a link.

I recently relocatd to Syracuse NY, which until recently had no Starbucks at al. Even now there are only two: one on the edge of the SU campus near the hospital complex (three large hospitals and a med school all adjacent to one another) and the other on a main drag in a middle class suburb with loads of vehicular traffic. Syracuse is a blue collar town whose manufacturing industries are rapidly disappearing - Starbucks goes where the money is. Interestingly enough, we have an eastern suburb (Fayetteville) that is decidely upscalae and upper income - it could easily support a 'buck location. reliabel sources tell me that they researched vehicle traffic patterns there for a year or so and settled on one specific location that they believed would work for them - when the real estate was unavailable they walked.

New Orleans: Yes I had difficulty finding good coffee there but once I tried a CC location I was all set - they do indeed do a good job with their java and espresso drinks.

Edited November 12, 2003 by phaelon56 (log)

[Sweet Willie]

I've said this before and I'll say it again: where could you get a decent cup of coffee on in an airport before Starbucks? Or on an Interstate? Or at the mall?

No, it's not the apex of humanity's quest for the prefect cup of coffee, but if in an area of North America with a relatively low concentration of Gaggia's, it can be a sight for sore eyes.

agreed.

Baby steps, we're getting there.

[laurenmilan]

I order Torani Gingerbread and Peppermint syrups and replicate (admittedly much better) versions of their holiday drinks. Eggnog latte... even easier.

Then again, I also put out trays of a copycat recipe of the Cranberry Bliss Bars too, so I feel like I'm harnessing the power of Starbucks and using it for good.

[Hopleaf]

I'm usually not a big fan of corporations leveling taste down to mediocrity, but when it comes to Starbuck's espresso (to date, have never tried their coffee), you can't complain with the level of consistency they get from shot to shot, across the country. That has to be commended. Is it the best espresso I've ever tasted? By no means, but neither are McDonald french fries the best french fries I've ever tasted, but go to any McDonalds (I hasten to say globally, but nationally for sure) and the fries are consistently good (there sandwich products leave much to be desire, but that's another story).

I'm an Extra-shot Americano, grande. So I don't really have an opinion on their milk drinks. But I do think the only thing I could complain about how my drink is prepared is how hot the water is they add to make the Americano. Burning my tongue is right up there with severing my own digits with a meat cleaver...something I go to great lengths to avoid. I've taken to asking for a "couple cubes of ice, please" which seems to be a phrase very much so open to interpretation. I've gotten anywhere from two cubes (a standard interpretation of "couple") to nearly a full scoopful of ice (an overzealousness that screams lack of interest).

Which brings me to my other complaint, the service. I've witnessed attrocities in customer service before, but nothing nearly as bad as what I once saw at the Starbucks in Chicago's Merchandise Mart. Apparently one particular day a Starbucks employee had consumed one too many espresso shots and when a customer asked for drink to be remade since it wasn't what she order (this in the middle of the morning rush, of course) the employee all but hauled off on her. After a verbal tirade that made this meak midwesterner blush and put my head down in shame for having witnessed the incident, the lady stormed off, probably never to return to another Starbucks.

[Moopheus]

Charbucks coffee is terrible. I'll drink dark roast coffee but theirs just tastes burnt and bitter to me, no coffee taste. Also, I'll never forgive them for destroying the Coffee Connection (a Boston-area coffeeshop chain that had excellent coffee. When Charbucks first moved into New England, they knew Coffee Connection would be stiff competition, so rather than compete, they just bought them out. Six months after the usual "we're not going to change anything" line, the Coffee Connections were all gone.)

[tommy]

jean-georges gets his coffee from starbucks.

[phaelon56]

jean-georges gets his coffee from starbucks.

To my way of thinking.... this only confirms a point that has been made on other threads relating to haute cuisine, "fine dining" restaurants and the abysmal coffee that is often served in them. Abysmal in the sense that it in no way approaches or comes near the level of or quality of coffee served at good cafe operations that understand the processes and principle of making excellent coffee. Sure.... Daniel Bouley, Jean-Georges and others aren't serving swill but no way are they serving really good, freshly roasted coffee that is made correctly.

Why use Starbucks? Several possibilities....

1) He's not a coffee drinker and doesn't know any better or perhaps has allowed some consultant or other "expert" tell him what coffee is "best".

2) A cozy arrangement with Starbucks. They're shrewd enough that it wouldn't shock me to see them paying a high profile restaurauteur for the privilege of serving their coffee in his restaurant. Kind of a "product placement" deal. The very fact that you are aware of what brand they're using indicates that there's a successful marketing twist of some sort going on. No slight intended against you Tommy - it just serves as another confirmation of Starbucks marketing genius - people think of the company name as the coffee type rather than even identifying with a specifc varietal they truly enjoy. Ask many peope and they'll say their favorite coffee is Starbucks. Ask me and I'll identify the varietals I like best (Sumatra Mandheling, Ethiopian Harrar and Mexican Altura being among them)

3) It's an easy compromise - using Starbucks coffee assures him of a reasonable consistency from one batch to the next, even if it's roasted too dark and may not be as good or as fresh as what he could get from a quality microroaster. Starbucks roasts dark to mask inconsistencies or variations betwen varous batches of beans. They're striving for corporate or mass market uniformity. Darker roasting maks sthe subtleties of flavor but ensures that batches form different farms, different gorwing seasons etc will yield a brew that tastes pretty much the same year in and year out. Like wines, the crops from different years have markedly different characteristics. Guatemala Antigua or Cost Rican Yauco Selecto is NOT the same every year or from every estate in the same way that not every presisng of wine from a particular grape grown in a specific vineyard is identical in quality. The 'bucks buys baens in such huge quantities that they're forced to do a dark ewr roast in order to maintain the uniformity they want. Think of it as the coffee version of table wine - can be consistently good and predictable - enjoyable enough to drink but never an evanescent or ethereal experience - lacks the subtlety to rise above.

Please note that I'm no Starbucks basher, unlike many. The 'bucks is what it is and has its place. They've also done an admirable thing for coffee drinkers in general by raising the bar and forcing the competition to perform better.

Unlike WalMart, who CAN drive out competition just by offering larger selections, deeper inventory levels and lower prices on commodity items, Starbucks does not sell on price. They are rarely if ever cheaper than the independent coffeehouses they compete against. If an independent fails when Starbucks moves into the neighborhod, it's because the independent is not doing a good job. The margins are already there for all to enjoy and the customers are driven by a combination of quality and shrewd marketing.

I can also attest to the fact that I've tried their coffee at home and in the office. When I fix it myself and use the correct ratio of water to beans, it is far better than what they serve in their stores but is nowehere near to offering the subtlety of flavor and the freshness that I get from microroaster varietals or my own home roasts.

[tommy]

i meant that the man stops at starbucks when he wants coffee (from what i've read). i'm not sure what he uses in his restaurants, although i'm guessing it's not starbucks. though i wouldn't be surprised. i should have been clearerer.

Edited December 23, 2003 by tommy (log)

[phaelon56]

I see your point. Even if he does not get the restaurant's coffee at Starbucks, your remark served to stir up some worthwhile discussion. I've had so much bad coffee in NYC that more often than not, when I'm in Manhattan, I also get my coffee at Starbucks. Apparently Jean-Georges and I travel in the same select circles (not)

[malachi]

As a caveat - I'm a barista by training, profession and passion. My bias should thus be obvious.

It's interesting to me that so many people who would not set foot in a McDonald's by choice (or at least without an ironic intent) choose to drink coffee at Starbucks.

From reading the various posts, my guess is that even this subgroup (arguably a self-selecting group of palate focussed or obsessed individuals) is woefully under-informed when it comes to espresso. The only explanation that I can come up with for the drinks that people here are choosing to consume is that few if any have had the chance to taste truly great espresso. It make me sad. It would be as if everyone still felt that the only good thing to do with Tuna was to can it.

I implore folks here to try and seek out great espresso in your area. It's a taste experience you need to have. And when you find it, please... just once try it without milk, sugar, syrups or chocolate. A great espresso needs no such gussying.

As for Starbucks... the reason that their drinks have so much milk - are served in such big cups - are mixed with syrups and flavours and the like is that their espresso is nearly undrinkable without being thus masked. Espresso is very hard to produce well. Nothing I cooked in a restaurant was as challenging. The vast majority of consumers think that it is simply a matter of putting some ground coffee in the machine and pushing the button. Starbucks has done a good job of selling this belief. It's simply not true. Dr Ernesto Illy once estimated that there are more than 1000 variables in the production of a shot of espresso. It is simply impossible to produce great espresso in a business like Starbucks. They seem to have realized this and have tailored their product and their marketing to get around this by not selling espresso.

Starbucks has done far more harm than good in the US. They've miseducated the american consumer in many ways. The vast majority of Americans believe that coffee needs to be strong to be good, and that strong means dark and bitter. The vast majority of Americans think espresso (straight) doesn't taste good.

Starbucks is the Almaden of our time.

[Moopheus]

As for Starbucks... the reason that their drinks have so much milk - are served in such big cups - are mixed with syrups and flavours and the like is that their espresso is nearly undrinkable without being thus masked.

I have to agree completely with everything Malachi has said here. For me the dividing line between good coffee and bad coffee is that I can drink good coffee uncontaminated by milk or sugar and bad coffee cannot be had this way. Starbucks coffee does not pass this test. I figure if a coffeeshop can't give me a drinkable plain old cup o' joe then they aren't likely to have anything else worth paying for.

[cjs]

I've been a smoker for, lets just say a long time,and recently have been trying to give it up. Down to a couple a day. Its funny how since I've done this, my cup of starbucks coffee has taken on an odd taste. I guess what they say about tastebuds is true.

[hillvalley]

I am not much of a coffee drinker, but even I know the coffee doesn't deserve the popularity. I must admitt though that I am a big fan of their Vanilla Creme. It's hot chocolate made with vanilla instead. I often bribe myself with them on cold mornings when I can't get out of bed.

I was in London the summers of '99 and '00. It was absolutely disgusting how many Starbucks popped up in one year.

[phaelon56]

Starbucks is the Almaden of our time.

Now that you mention it... I did notice that they're now selling bulk coffee to go in a cardboard box with a plastic liner...

[Moopheus]

I can also attest to the fact that I've tried their coffee at home and in the office. When I fix it myself and use the correct ratio of water to beans, it is far better than what they serve in their stores but is nowehere near to offering the subtlety of flavor and the freshness that I get from microroaster varietals or my own home roasts.

This is true of Dunkin Donuts coffee too--if I make it myself from their beans, it's a lot better than what you get at the shop (I used to drink it a lot when I had an office job and no money--it's cheap and heavily caffeinated). Better than what you get from Charbucks, too. But then, if I get fresh roasted coffee from the coffee shop down the street (they have their own roaster right in the shop) it's still better if I make it myself. I think there's just a tendency for coffee shops to chintz on the amount of grind they use in the pot.

[malachi]

At many coffee shops the staff is less likely to cheat on the amount of coffee in the pot, and far more likely the cheat on the shelf-life of the pot and/or the completeness of the cleaning of that pot. The most likely cause of your coffee tasting better is that it is truly fresh brewed. A very good coffee bar, on the other hand, will be dilligent about throwing out pots of coffee that are past their standard max shelf-life and will clean very thoroughly each and every night.

[hillvalley]

The most likely cause of your coffee tasting better is that it is truly fresh brewed. A very good coffee bar, on the other hand, will be dilligent about throwing out pots of coffee that are past their standard max shelf-life and will clean very thoroughly each and every night.

How long is the max shelf life for coffee and steamed milk? You see it sitting there sometimes and start to wonder.....

[malachi]

It depends.

If you're talking about brewed coffee, the shelf life can be rather short (in a small, open pyrex pot) or a bit longer (in an airpot). In either case, in a commercial environment a pot of brewed coffee should never be older than an hour at the very outside and it's far preferable if it's served or thrown out earlier than that.

If you're talking espresso... if it sits in a shot glass while the barista finishes the drink it shouldn't be longer than say 30 seconds. If (god forbid) the espresso is being pre-made (I have heard of such things) then run screaming from the building.

As for steamed milk... there are two answers. First, if a barista is making your drink and after steaming the milk puts the pitcher on the counter while building the drink, that's one thing (though in general it is preferable to steam while pulling the shot and thus not let the milk sit and separate). But if you mean a pitcher has been steamed, poured and is then sitting, partially full, on the countertop... you should go to another coffee bar. Seriously. I, personally, won't patronize a place where they re-steam milk at all, but I can see it being maybe borderline acceptable if the milk has been re-cooled in the refrigerator before being re-steamed and the milk is then used in something like a Caffe Mocha -- but only if it's been re-cooled.

Edited December 31, 2003 by malachi (log)

[LaurieA-B]

Article in Willamette Week (Portland, OR) about why Starbucks is not evil and how they increase business for local coffeehouses. The one thing not discussed in the article is the quality of Starbucks beverages.

[Gary Soup]

Jusy say no.

[laurenmilan]

I'm not a fan of Starbucks, but then again, I only drink espresso. I think theirs is horrible, and I really don't like the fact that they serve it in a paper cup even if I'm staying at the shop. If I'm forced to go there with friends, I ask for a real cup, and they rarely have them.

LOL that's one of my pet peeves too... coffee is meant to be enjoyed slowly. Gimme ceramic!

Again, reason #4,186 to frequent the indie coffeehouse... you have to request paper instead of the other way around.

[laurenmilan]

And I have to admit, I'm all over their gingerbread latte during the holidays.  It's yummy!

But when it comes to just a plain cuppa joe, I pull out my can of Cafe du Monde, throw a little cinnamon and/or nutmeg in the grounds before brewing and I'm a happy little camper.  And it doesn't cost me $5!

A few companies, including Torani, sell the 750 ml bottles of gingerbread syrup for $7. Starbucks has a house brand of its own, and sells it in little bottles.

If you Google for it, you can find recipes for the gingerbread syrup too.... ditto for peppermint syrup.

You know, that is one of my OTHER 'Bucks beefs, and although it isn't entirely intentional, it is relevant: the fact that even basic coffee-making has become something considered out of the realm of the average "joe". People have become so assured that it is impossible to make their own drip coffee, let alone mochas, cappuccinos and cafe au laits, of any quality.

It's disturbing that when I make coffee after dinner for company, I'm being told that the coffee's amazing, how do I do it, in this wide-eyed wonder (FYI. it's just Trader Joe's). Folks shouldn't be amazed that home coffee can taste good. And it seems like unless you live in New Orleans, good cafe au lait has to start at home. Mmmmm, Cafe du Monde....

Edited June 4, 2004 by laurenmilan (log)

[stephenc]

I've said this before and I'll say it again: where could you get a decent cup of coffee on in an airport before Starbucks?

Dunkin Donuts of course!