Pastry books and your experiences

[chefette]

I have issues with many of the cookbooks that are available to me. How about you? Here are some of my thoughts and I hope that many of you have some of your own to add. Or share some of the resource books you have experience with and the experiences you have had trying to use recipes from them. Were the results what you had hoped for or expected? Were temperatures too high, techniques waived, were you talked down to? Did you scour the universe looking for a teaspoon of something that cost a fortune? Did you destroy your kitchen and spend 12 hours just to end up a sticky frustrated mess? Or did you produce exactly what you dreamed of with grace and ease? I for one would be very interested to hear these things - brilliant successes and horrible disappointments. I would also be interested in your opinions on how the resources available to you could have been better - in your opinion - both as home cooks and/or as professionals.

For one thing they are packed with beautifully styled pictures of desserts plated just so on amazing dishes with perfect lighting. Many of the photos contain elements that are not even part of the recipes they accompany. Many times items that are prepared in the recipe are primarily for decorative effect and not for real consumption (take nougatine cups in Michel Roux's Finest Desserts for example a home cook can easily get this book, go to huge amounts of effort to produce the &^*(%$# cups only to discover that they taste good but are not realistically edible.)

Another peeve is that depending on the source many recipes are vague and do not produce results even reminiscent of the accompanying photos

From the perspective of friends who do not cook professionally - the recipes involve ingredients, and equipment they cannot get or never heard of, or can be obtained at fairly high cost.

Sometimes recipes and techniques are oversimplified and written in such a way that seems to imply that the reader is incapable of cooking in the first place

Sometimes cook books do not make it clear to the home cook that some things just cannot realistically be done at home, or that some of the ingredients and equipment they use are superfluous to the home cooking environment and scale.

Since it is unrealistic to expect that people are creating these books solely for the benefit of their peers they should really help everyone by working out both sides of the equation so both worlds could enjoy their books. And if you are going to provide a book translated into English you need to have it well translated and edited in translation as well as in its original language. Since people pay upwards of $100 for many such books, they deserve to be able to use them

I think that many chefs basically have adapted recipes and techniques to give individual diners in restaurants or patrons in pastry shops some version of something they themselves might make at home or have made for them at home if they were wealthy aristocrats at the turn of the century. So all these chefs have adopted tricks to do things in volume or do things fast, or make sure things last long enough to go from production to table. Now we at home are supposed to take their restaurant or shop tricks and copy them? How silly is that? No, I think that to really do a cookbook that will be sold to the public is to do the following:

1- Show and explain the standard for the dessert or item and by what elements one can determine its quality (take an éclair for instance - you should know the proper size, that it should be nicely formed and smooth, that it should be well browned and crisp, that the cream should fill it just so, should be smooth and rich, that the topping should be shiny and not dripping, and should be nicely chocolatey - it should not be limp, and light gold and top sliced off, filled with stiff whipped cream and sort of slopped with brown frosting)

2- provide the and technique for preparation in small batches at home within the limitations of ingredients and equipment available to the home cook

3- provide alterations to the recipe and technique for preparing commercially using professional equipment and ingredients (also providing notes to home users on what these are, why they are employed, etc - so people will not be flipping out thinking they need Glucose or invert sugar or stabilizers to they can make a pint of ice cream at home. Likewise that they do not think they can produce the same results as professional products as well as understand why their ice cream will never taste like Haagen Daz, their cookies like keeblers...)

4- provide information about serving/presenting to guests or customers for maximum enjoyment and goodness

In this manner the book will have greater utility to all audiences and we will also benefit by helping people identify what is good product well executed and what is sloppy or lazy or bad. Then we will not have to keep going back to have endless discussions on why people do not care about desserts and why so many desserts are bad, because we will contribute to giving the public a good solid ability to choose and enjoy.

[Guest Morel]

My sister decided to give me a Martha Stewart cookbook and I'll tell you I have wasted many eggs not to mention time, on most of her book. The lemon cake always never turned out her Pate brissee a waste of time, so I can relate the frustration of reciepes that do not want to work with us.

[alanamoana]

i definitely agree with chefette regarding most aspects of cookbooks. here is where "subjective" comes to play (technically, i'm a professional in the restaurant business):

i buy cookbooks with pictures because they give me inspiration. i don't buy cookbooks that don't have any pictures because it is difficult sometimes to imagine what the recipe is supposed to look like.

i think cookbooks should be labeled for their specific use. as many people have pointed out in some other cookbook threads, there are books that are easier than others to use at home. supposedly, jacques torres "dessert circus" is specifically for the home cook. he seems to make an attempt to use ingredients/tools, etc. that the home baker would have at hand.

then again, there are a lot of home bakers that have better equipment than some kitchens i've worked in .

i remember one instance where my boss (a chef and restaurant owner) was making a dessert from nancy silverton's original dessert book. she was making this for personal use, but was making it in the pastry kitchen of her restaurant (where i was working at the time). she had the hardest time with this dessert. the descriptions were terrible, the recipes indecipherable, the outcome unforseeable.

i am particularly critical of cookbooks written by well known professionals. they should be easier to read/understand than others. when they aren't, i feel they're merely writing cookbooks to make extra money and they're capitalizing on their name recognition.

with cookbooks, i always have a grain of salt or two ready at hand. there is another thread here on eGullet that asks everyone how many cookbooks they own. i know i feel rather behind the times because i have so few (granted, they're almost all pastry related). i guess i'm also a little pickier. this is not to say that my fellow eGulleteers are buying books indiscriminately, but that some of the non-professionals may fall into the trap of buying books that aren't suitable for anyone (chef or home cook) to cook from.

finally i'd like to add:

all cookbooks should be written similarly to "the joy of cooking" in that the ingredients list should be first and foremost. i prefer that the ingredients be listed in the order that they will be used, and grouped together if they can be mixed ahead of time (like wet and/or dry ingredients in baking). this way, you aren't searching through the instructions when you're making out your shopping list and you then miss something or there are three different places where flour is being used, but you only noticed one so you run out before you're done. i hate that!!!

p.s. i'm adding this because i am the most impatient person in the world: read the instructions and the entire recipe before you do anything with the ingredients. get your mise en place ready. read the recipe again. then start cooking. it can't hurt, right?!!!

Edited November 4, 2003 by alanamoana (log)

[JFLinLA]

Let's be clear, most cookbooks are designed to sell which does not always translate into usable recipes. Many people buy the "beautiful" cookbooks as if they were coffee table books. I buy cook books for a different purpose. Before I do spend money, I will flip through it to see if I think it will be useful. Further, when I get a new one, the first thing I do is read it cover to cover, literally. This may take several days as I sit in bed late in the evening perusing the foreword/introduction, other discussion, along with the recipes.

In terms of which books I use and what I think about them, it depends what I'm going for. Julia Child has never failed me yet and she always does an excellent job of explaining technique. I love many recipes from my old, stained Silver Palate books however sometimes the results didn't "wow" me or weren't worth the effort. Fannie Farmer and Joy of Cooking are always within arms reach as they can easily explain basic technique. In that regard, the Cake Bible also serves as great reference material. I need to poke my nose back into Peter Reinhart and Nancy Silverton to check out some bread stuff but I haven't been focusing there for a while. I love Joan Nathan's Jewish Cooking in America for it's stories and history but have only ever cooked 1 or 2 things from it. I could go on.

I guess I tend to "cherry pick" from the books I have, find what works for me, combine ideas from different sources including books, handed down recipes, online sources, etc.

[BettyK]

I hate pastry books that have useless aka artsy pictures - like a stack of raw chocolate or an empty cup. Who has never seen chocolate in their life? Grrr. Heck if I want to see art I'd go to an art gallery. Show me how the dessert looks damn it.

My other rant is measurement. All pastry books should give weights. Ok give cup measurements too for those who don't have a scale but then don't complain if your cake didn't come out right. I can't stand cookbooks that have cup measurements only. BTW, who invented those stupid cups?

[chefette]

Quote "BTW, who invented those stupid cups"

Someone who hated their scale

[Pyewacket]

As a former pastry chef (25 years) and now a food stylist, recipe tester, developer and editor, I can truthfully say "I feel your pain!"

There was a brilliant article in Gourmet a few years back entitled "Should Chefs Write Cookbooks?" The general conclusion was a resounding NO! Not only do chefs assume that home cooks have comparable equipment as they; but they also assume an easy facility with technique that one who cooks all-day every-day has. Also, they pay little mind to the hard to find and expensive ingredients they take for granted. Attention to obtaining reasonable yields is a rarity. I can't tell you how many times I've had to style recipes from chefs that are to be published in periodicals or cookbooks or used in promotional demos where the recipe is only a rough outline, ingredients are left out of the text, measurments are estimations only (" to taste" kills me!--whose taste? For God's sake, commit to a quantity will ya'?), and there is six times the filling or glaze that you really need to finish the dessert.

A good indicator as to whether recipes will be successful or not can be found in the acknowledgements. If an author compliments a bunch of testers, you can bet that most of the recipes are well tested and work pretty well. Also, in the preface, if the author gives you a sense that the subject is meaningful to them and that they have a genuine history with and understanding of the subject, the recipes generally work. Forget any cookbook published originally in Europe- too much gets lost in the translation from metric to US measurements.

About measurements--the reason the US standard measurement is by volume dates back to settlement times. Most Americans one or two hundred years ago were on the move and transient. Scales were expensive, breakable, inaccurate and heavy-not conducive to life on the frontier. Home cooks made do with teacups and spoons. Grant you, I'd love it if all American cooks started using metric scales for everything! Fewer headaches all around, for sure. But until the US gets with the rest of the world, we must make do in our own way, as we always have.

[tan319]

I think most cookbooks assume a basic knowledge of the subject, for better or worse. So I don't know if we can blame the author if a recipe for a tempered chocolate dish or candy goe's bad. I think we've seen posts or threads here a plenty from people who we assume are at least mid level pro's who are having problems with tempering or even baking (me, for instance)

I have gotten to the point where I only want to buy really good books (ie. expensive)

I've cooked a fair amount of stuff from Oriol Balaguers book ( A Spanish book, btw), basic recipes and others and can't begin to tell you how impressed I am with how well the recipes were tested. Never had a bummer yet.

Richard Leach's book, 'Sweet Seasons' also seems well tested.

I just got Michel Bras dessert 'Notebook' but haven't made anything from it yet. It has volume and weighed measures, which bodes well.

I always read thru a book at least twice and the recipes which intrigue me I'll probably look at 4 or 5 times before I go for it.

From chefette) 1- Show and explain the standard for the dessert or item and by what elements one can determine its quality (take an éclair for instance - you should know the proper size, that it should be nicely formed and smooth, that it should be well browned and crisp, that the cream should fill it just so, should be smooth and rich, that the topping should be shiny and not dripping, and should be nicely chocolatey - it should not be limp, and light gold and top sliced off, filled with stiff whipped cream and sort of slopped with brown frosting)

Chefette, I think most of these criteria could only be filled to these expectations by someone who had the training and or was taught by someone. I'm not sure the average home cook who has an interest but doesn't alway cook is going to cook to those specs!

There's my 2 cents for the moment

[Lesley C]

I think pastry books should be written by pastry chefs BUT there should be major handholding involved by an excellent editor.

I have many more shitty pastry books written by amateurs than professionals. Amateurs often write things that are DEAD WRONG and the execution of the pastries is wretched (see Alton Brown thread on icing a cake ).

[chefette]

One of my all time favorite instructions from famous french pastry chef books is this:

Prepare in the usual fashion

I think this says it all for me.

Anyone else have any favorites?

[nightscotsman]

i remember one instance where my boss (a chef and restaurant owner) was making a dessert from nancy silverton's original dessert book.  she was making this for personal use, but was making it in the pastry kitchen of her restaurant (where i was working at the time).  she had the hardest time with this dessert.  the descriptions were terrible, the recipes indecipherable, the outcome unforseeable.

I completely agree! I have both her dessert and pastry books and have been completely mystified by the instructions for many of the recipes. She makes them sound so wonderful in the intros, but damned if I can tell what the hell they're supposed to look like from the directions. And of course there are black and white photos of only a handful of finished items. A couple recipes I've tried were complete disasters because the instructions didn't make any sense.

Another major peeve in some professional level books from Bau and Herme: no yields! Is it too much to ask to know how many cakes a recipe will make? And Herme doesn't even give ring or mold sizes - I guess you're just supposed to use the "usual" size?

There are - thank God - some cookbook authors who get it right for the home cook: clear and complete instructions, measurements in weight and volume, no assumption of specialized professional equipment, reliable results, etc. I'm a big fan of Flo Braker in this regard. Her stuff may not be on the cutting edge of pastry, but I'm never confused about what I'm making and have always gotten great results. Dorie Greenspan is another great recipe writer that I have learned to trust. Anybody else have a favorite, reliable author?

[Wendy DeBord]

Well I'm an admitted baking book whore! I own a good sized collection and love most of them from the little cheapie ones they sell at the grocery store to Herme and Bau. I buy for variety because I do a variety of work from cookies to ethnic desserts.

I know I can't be objective on this topic. I can't look at a baking book and see it as a non-professional would. But I do recall being frustrated and unhappy with books when I began learning. Now I'm not always looking for a whole recipe, sometimes I just want an idea-something different.

I have a list of authors I won't buy future work from because I think their work is inferior or strickly average (and I can judge your baking by what books you say you like and don't like). Then I also have a list of authors I buy everything they write with-out peeking at the contents.

Nightscotsman touched on something that really does anger me- not telling yields...or I wish they'd scale proportionally to the torte mentioned. I don't mind having extra components-I'll freeze them, but when your in a hurry and you expect a mousse to yield a equal an amount to fill the 2 cakes the sponge yielded-having to back track and make more... ruffles my feathers.

When I began working from probooks that wrote "prepare as usual" it did leave me frustrated. But now I've made enough recipes from them that I've grown to trust that instruction, because I haven't had a failure when doing so.

On photos: Ah...I agree on the stupid waste of money spent on publishing artsy photos that don't contain baked goods. I always think that was dumb-why didn't they give me a photo of something I WANTED to see. I do judge very heavily on how the pastries look when they provide photos. When I look at Nick M.'s photos I see dry large crumbed cakes-and run away. I just bought Sherry Yards new book and I'm put off by the degree of brown she takes her work too, cause I know a couple hours after it's out of the oven it's going to be so dry no one will want to eat it. Although she does talk about this and insists that Americans underbake vs. the French (which is a discussion of it's own).

Yes, I really prefer photos with every recipe, but I look at them not for guidance but I try to "read" the crumb/texture. BUT this doesn't stop me from buying from authors I like. Dorie Greenspans Paris Sweets would have a completely different feel with photos. Her words make up for not having them....but few authors can do this well.

[alanamoana]

i will add that alice medrich's book "cocolat" (i think her first), was the first book i tried to bake from. at this point, i had no idea that i'd be doing this professionally. her instructions are clear, there are great photos of the finished product, she does just about everything in weight. i didn't have a scale at the time, and just estimated my ingredients. even doing everything by hand (whisking whites, cream, mixing everything) and estimating ingredient weights, the recipes came out great. so i would have to assume that she accounted for a lot of home cook trial and error into her r & d for this book. i will buy any and every book that she puts out because i have had such good results from "cocolat".

i wish more "pastry chefs"/cookbook writers would use her as an example.

[Wendy DeBord]

Complimenting and dishing specific books:

I just bought Alice Medrich's new book Bittersweet. Although I haven't finished reading it or made anything from it.....* she's the first author I've seen who really dives into education on contemporary chocolates. She talks very clearly about percentages and her in depth experiences using various chocolate types in EACH recipe. Which is a first for a book (that I know of). I think she's does her best to provide the missing links of information on chocolate that even pro-books avoid. IT'S A BUY!

I buy all of Marthas work and always get something worth the purchase out of each.

Books that I should love that I'm not using:

Claudia Flemming- too many frozen items, hard to get ingredients, flavors I can't sell in the mid-west...

Richard Leach- soooo many components-sure they work together but none of them call to me to take out and use in other applications.

Gale Gand-her work contains alot of recipes I've gotten else where. They aren't always good. Many seem childish for all the wrong reasons. I think her work is too dumbed down-don't appeal to me.

Silvertons books- just sit on my shelfs I can't seem to find something I want to make from them.

Torres-although I love his tv work I don't care for his earilier books. The few items I made weren't exciting.

...........to start.

[bloviatrix]

i remember one instance where my boss (a chef and restaurant owner) was making a dessert from nancy silverton's original dessert book.  she was making this for personal use, but was making it in the pastry kitchen of her restaurant (where i was working at the time).  she had the hardest time with this dessert.  the descriptions were terrible, the recipes indecipherable, the outcome unforseeable.

I completely agree! I have both her dessert and pastry books and have been completely mystified by the instructions for many of the recipes. She makes them sound so wonderful in the intros, but damned if I can tell what the hell they're supposed to look like from the directions. And of course there are black and white photos of only a handful of finished items. A couple recipes I've tried were complete disasters because the instructions didn't make any sense.

I've been thinking about getting the Silverton book for a number of years but, for some reason was holding off. Now I know not to bother. Thanks everyone. You just saved me twenty some-odd dollars that'll get appropriated towards another book.

[alanamoana]

bloviatrix,

this isn't to turn you away from her bread books. i haven't used the "breads from la brea bakery", but i have a feeling she's a better baker than pastry chef. this is my opinion as i don't have first hand experience with her breads.

sinclair,

thanks for your comments on medrich's new book. i'm looking to buy it as you can see i'm already a fan. your recommendation sealed the deal.

[chefette]

A- Dessert/Baking books by women (not pastry chefs - Fannie Farmer, Betty Crocker, Joy of Cooking, Martha Stewart, etc. Baking with Julia would not actually count since it is a collection of work by other pastry chefs)

B- Dessert/Baking books by men (not pastry chefs - can't even think of any off hand hmmmm)

C- Pastry/Baking books by well known american pastry chefs

D- Pastry/Baking books by well known foreign pastry chefs working in the US

E- Pastry/Baking books by famous pastry chefs in France

F- Pastry/Baking books by famous pastry chefs in Spain

G- Pastry/Baking books by famous pastry chefs in other parts of Europe and the world

First: Fess up about your skill level

Amateur home baker/ Pastry student/ Newbie professional / Established Pro

Then: Talk about the category of books from which you most frequently and successfully derive recipes

Then: Talk about the category of books from which you get the most inspiration

Lastly: Talk about the category of books that give you the most satisfaction and which ones frustrate you the most

Just sort of interested/curious in how things might fall out.

[JFLinLA]

Dorie Greenspan is another great recipe writer that I have learned to trust. Anybody else have a favorite, reliable author?

Flo Braker -- already mentioned.

Maida Heatter

Anything by Julia -- even if it's "technically" someone else's recipes those books are always well done.

[Wendy DeBord]

O.k. it's past my bed time........but I'm good at incoherant rambling.

I'm a unestablished pro.

I most frequently use recipes from D: foreign (almost all French) PC's working here in the states. BUT I almost never present them as shown-I make them appear American. Or I'm stealing their fillings and flavor combinations and using them with my established components. But in contradiction, my core cakes and components mainly came from group A.

Since I've a VERY visual person yet I do varied pastry work, I get the most inspiration from: all of the mentioned. A good photograph will do more to inspire me then a great description.

Most satisfaction: probably the ones I use the most because I got my moneys worth and then some. Those books would be: #1 Herme's (all of them), Payard, Roux (2 books), Bellouet ( 3 books), Sherry Yard (3 books), Bau, Deslaunier (3 books), Alice Medrich, Julia, Greenspan and for magazines hands down Martha.

Most frustration: because of ingredients being too extravagent or plating multi temp. items I don't have the situation that will allow that done in, or that I don't have access to decent equipment including serving dishes: Fleming, Leach and Orial B.. And most of all frustrated with MYSELF for not being is a job situation that allows me to use and grow from these chefs.

Edited November 6, 2003 by Sinclair (log)

[chefette]

I love the pictures in the Bras book - not the pastry notebook. I have that but haven't really used it . I have to admit, I love to see the pictures too. Bras desserts look really cool and sound intriguiong, but I have found that the recipes themselves are a TOTAL PAIN!!!!!!! Especially for the home user because he is being a chef - he's grabbing things from mise en place in the kitchen and making a dessert. There is nothing wrong with that - it happens all the time and its good to be creative with what you have on hand. But it makes for incredibly difficult and complicated recipes since for each item or component on a plate you may need to first make two or three other interim items and then use some of that to mash up and add to something else. What I do is look at what he is ending up with and seeing if I can take a more direct route.

[NeroW]

Evil instruments of torment!

Just wanted to say it. Carry on.

[kitwilliams]

Anybody else have a favorite, reliable author?

I've got to add Maida Heatter to this category. I know some people who are put off by her after just glancing at a recipe because her instructions are so lengthy. But if they were to actually read through it, they would discover that she is simply thorough and wants the reader/baker to be as successful as possible. She gives terrific tips (although I've made shortcuts in some of her recipes that I use often) and I can't think of a single recipe of hers that has been unsuccessful.

I think I'll go make her ginger biscotti right now.

[pim]

I am a not a pro by any means, but I would call myself a somewhat skilled amateur baker. What I find interesting is the trajectory I’ve gone through in terms of which pastry books or what type of recipe I have found useful over the years.

When I began to bake a few years ago, I found recipes and books with a lot of tricks and special instructions very useful. I used books like The Pastry Bible, The Cooks Bible, The Best Recipes, and actually used recipes from Cooks Illustrated which had me add egg yolks that have been passed through a fine sieve in my biscuits!! I relished recipes that asked for special things, like yoghurt in muffins, cider vinegar in pie crusts, etc, believing that they would guarantee my success. The actual success rate, of course, varied.

Now that I feel quite comfortable with my baking skills, I find that I couldn’t be bothered with those finicky recipes any more. I’m no longer willing to buy buttermilk or keep my cider vinegar chilled just to add to my pie crust. The recipes I use now are simple. The pie crust contains flour, butter, water, salt, that’s it! And the type of books I now go for has changed. I have one book I used for basic recipes such as various pâtes, génoise, meringue, etc. The book I use most often is Larousse des Desserts by Pierre Hermé. The other recipe books I use mostly for inspiration, for new combination of tastes, texture, etc. I always go to my old trusted génoise recipe or pie crust recipe rather than following what the other authors provided.

[tan319]

I love the pictures in the Bras book - not the pastry notebook.  I have that but haven't really used it .  I have to admit, I love to see the pictures too.  Bras desserts look really cool and sound intriguiong, but I have found that the recipes themselves are a TOTAL PAIN!!!!!!! Especially for the home user because he is being a chef - he's grabbing things from mise en place in the kitchen and making a dessert.  There is nothing wrong with that - it happens all the time and its good to be creative with what you have on hand.  But it makes for incredibly difficult and complicated recipes since for each item or component on a plate you may need to first make two or three other interim items and then use some of that to mash up and add to something else.  What I do is look at what he is ending up with and seeing if I can take a more direct route.

I love that gorgeous Bras book too!

I'll get that at some point. I guess knowing I can go to my local Barnes and Noble to look at it has kept me from getting it.

And I know what you mean about pictures too. I'm quite surprised I ended up with the notebook, knowing it had no pictures, only drawings. Years ago, when Michel Richard's cookbook came out, I passed on it because there were next to no pictures.

At this point, I'm looking for ideas and inspiration, and the Bras book is tweaking that a bit.

There is a lot of mise for a lot of his stuff!

Edited November 7, 2003 by tan319 (log)

[chefette]

Like I said - although I have the notebook, I haven't been inspired by it and haven't given it much attention. For the desserts in the beautiful cookbook, you are almost better off taking Sinclair's approach and looking at the pictures, reading the basic elements and coming up with your own methods. Of the recipes I tried I did not think the resilts were that good, things were too sweet and stuff didn't really work the way he had indicated it would. I did get some good ideas and came up with some tasty things that I liked based on his concepts. But if I was in a bind and someone said pick a book and make something great out of it I would not pick his book especially if you had to follow his recipes.

As for "reading the crumb" from pictures I find that is frequently deceptive. things look thick or moist or dense, but when you make them they are not like that at all.

Someone I know asked for a specific cake out of the Bau book (which is actually an event that led me to think about this). In the photos it looked pretty lucuious. I started looking over the recipe and realized it was just his sort of take on an opera cake. It didn't look like it in the picture because they were on ultimate close focus and so it was deceptive. I realized that this was a cake you would easily make by the hundreds in a production environment, that would hold up well in a case and look good. I think that it did not have much going for it in terms of flavor. Too sweet, too boring, no texture really and no contrast. It is a recipe for a cake sold in a shop that is some imitation of a good cake you would make at home but can't do in a shop because of time, or cost, or durability. I think that is a problem. Yes, its good to get recipes that work in shops, but I think that we are all looking for shops that sell nice cakes that taste great - don't just look great. This is the root of the evil trend to the 'rustic' desserts and the bizarre idea that ugly cakes will taste better. Well, maybe, but as soon as shops get this in their heads, they just start making ugly yucky cakes. yuck! And if you do not have a shop and want to make one nice cake for your own occasions why should you put in the effort to make a production cake - which frankly is alot of work for one cake. Not bad when you can do 20 or something, but for the home user...