Can My Butt be Saved?

[maggiethecat]

Stuplicate. Sorry.

Edited September 22, 2003 by maggiethecat (log)

[BettyK]

So, how was the butt? Please tell.

[maggiethecat]

Betty:

Thanks for asking. It was great, and I/m still alive. Will post more tomorrow, when I'm awake!

[maggiethecat]

The pork was wonderful, and obviously, because I have no GI problems, the few hours off heat didn't turn it into the Butt of Botulism.

The skin was almost too crispy; the cracklin' wouldn't crack under anyone's teeth! Next time I will defintely skip the initial forty minutes at 500. And (remember:I attempt to follow a recipe as written the first time out) it doesn't need 24 hours. I'm not sure what the minimum oven time might be, but I would guss that 18 hours would be plenty for an eight pound butt.

Thanks, guys for your suggestions and reassurance.

[BettyK]

Glad to hear it worked out well. I'd suggest you use a thermometer next time and start checking after 8 hours or up to 12 hours for a big roast. The collagen should break at 210 degrees. Then you can call it done.

Better crust next time

[ronnie_suburban]

The collagen should break at 210 degrees.

Thanks Betty...I learn something new everyday.

=R=

[fifi]

And... If you monitor the temperature of the pork like you might in a smoker, I'll bet you will find the same temperature stall that you do in the smoker while the fat melts and the collagen converts to gelatin.

Now, what I want to know is, why do I keep seeing these recipes that start out scorching hot, then go way too long. This one isn't the first I have seen or heard about. The one time I tried it I concluded that it was just all wrong. Talking to some other pork cooking friends, they have been hoodwinked into trying the same technique and came to the same conclusion. Nuts. Don't these people who write these things try it out before publishing?

Oh well... I wondered what Kafka was smoking when she wrote that roasting book, too. (Well, we do know that she smoked her kitchen! )

[fifi]

Something just occurred to me. I have been reading in several of my books on the chemistry of fats and, in some cases, what happens to animal fats when exposed to high temperatures. It is NOT pretty. The oxidation products can lead to off flavors for one thing. That explains the "funny taste" that I didn't like the time I did one of those high-temp-start pork butts.

I am guessing that on a steak, for instance, the cooking time at the high temp is not as long as normally recommended on the pork butts, so you don't get that funky taste. So maybe, on short term steak cooking, or other short term grillling techniques, high temp is GOOD. But, when you start exposing the fat to 30 minutes to an hour of the high temp, things get funky.

I do remember when I tried the high temp Kafka method on a beef roast, I didn't like the flavor very much at all. (I sure as hell didn't like the shriek of the smoke alarm.)

Am I nuts? (Now... THAT is a dumb thing to ask here.)

[Dave the Cook]

The collagen should break at 210 degrees. Then you can call it done.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Collagen begins breaking down at 140 F, and is fully under way at 160 F. Assuming this temperature is maintained, complete collagen conversion is simply a matter of time -- the question is how much. As has been pointed out in several of the smoking threads, there is no target temperature for this type of cooking, since by the standard temperature guidelines, the meat is "done" just about the time the collagen is breaking down. Rather, doneness is ascertained by feel: the looseness of the bone indicates fairly complete conversion. But fifi makes a great point:

If you monitor the temperature of the pork like you might in a smoker, I'll bet you will find the same temperature stall that you do in the smoker while the fat melts and the collagen converts to gelatin.

Inspired by this thread (and by 69-cents-a-pound pork shoulder), I put an eight-pound butt in a 225 F oven at 10 p.m. last night. At 8:00 this morning, it was at 164. At 9:00, it was at 165. At 3:00 this afternoon, it was 175. When I got home at 7:10, it was 186. I don't know for sure when it started or ended, but I think an 11 degree rise over seven hours indicates a stall. And my thinking is that, once this stall is over and the temperature starts climbing again, it's time to pull the butt -- any further heating will only further dry out the muscle proteins. What do you think, fifi? Now I wish I had made a temp-reading table at 15- or 30-minute intervals.

The pork was wonderful, and obviously, because I have no GI problems, the few hours off heat didn't turn it into the Butt of Botulism.

Just for the record, and to complete a hat trick of smug scientific bastardism, the effects of food poisoning don't usually show up until 24 to 48 hours after ingestion of the dastardly bug. So you're just entering the prime observation period, Lily.

[guajolote]

Inspired by this thread (and by 69-cents-a-pound pork shoulder), I put an eight-pound butt in a 225 F oven at 10 p.m. last night. At 8:00 this morning, it was at 164. At 9:00, it was at 165. At 3:00 this afternoon, it was 175. When I got home at 7:10, it was 186. I don't know for sure when it started or ended, but I think an 11 degree rise over seven hours indicates a stall. And my thinking is that, once this stall is over and the temperature starts climbing again, it's time to pull the butt -- any further heating will only further dry out the muscle proteins. What do you think, fifi? Now I wish I had made a temp-reading table at 15- or 30-minute intervals. 

When will one of the thermometer manufacturers come out with a model that logs your temperature by time and exports the data to your computer?

[maggiethecat]

Just for the record, and to complete a hat trick of smug scientific bastardism, the effects of food poisoning don't usually show up until 24 to 48 hours after ingestion of the dastardly bug. So you're just entering the prime observation period, Lily.

Oh, just thanks bunches! , Archie.

I will you my pie bird collection.

[ronnie_suburban]

When will one of the thermometer manufacturers come out with a model that logs your temperature by time and exports the data to your computer?

Someone must make them...we have these in our warehouse coolers...

=R=

[Schneier]

I have nothing to add on topic, but I just wanted to say that this is the funniest thread title that I have seen, ever.

I chuckle every time it goes by.

Bruce

[Al_Dente]

I can only reiterate my previous position. I'm sure your butt is fine.

[Dave the Cook]

Well, if you've got three hundred bucks (probably less than what I've spent on a variety of lesser devices over the last couple of years), there's the Fluke 54, which I think MatthewB suggested a few months ago. It does over and under, can accomodate two sensors (contact, probe or a combination), and comes with PC software for analysis.

And I really want one of these to measure grate, pan surface and charcoal fire temps.

[fifi]

Dave... You are absolutely right. Whether in a smoker or in an oven, the chemical reactions regarding the fat and the collagen are the same, being driven by temperature.

Being a certified SSB, I would love to track this. However, I don't have the equipment (yet) and someone beat me to it:

http://www.virtualweberbullet.com/pork2.html

Those of you not familiar with this site, these guys are fanatics. If you search around on the site, you will even find the Excel graphs.

(Off topic note: I have a weather staion in a box that I will install in my new house. It will transmit every weather condition into the house and into my computer. I am also a weather nut. Now I am inspired to extend that technology to my smoker.)

edit: Forgot to add, Dave... My opinion is that once the temperature finally starts to rise, you are probably drying out the meat if you go any longer. In a perfect world (and with properly placed temperature probes... my instumentation freaks are working on that) as soon as the temp starts to rise, you pull it off. That SHOULD be the optimum.

Edited September 23, 2003 by fifi (log)

[maggiethecat]

I have nothing to add on topic, but I just wanted to say that this is the funniest thread title that I have seen, ever.

I chuckle every time it goes by.

Bruce

Thanks, Bruce. I aim to have a (tiny!) talent to amuse.

And I am stunned by the great stuff I've learned about butts from all you SSBs. Thank you.

Edited September 23, 2003 by maggiethecat (log)

[Al_Dente]

Did you take a pic of your butt? I took one of mine.

Here it is: