Alice Water's takes on Artisan Cheese

[mcdowell]

The American Cheese Society held their annual gathering here in San Francisco a couple of weeks ago, where Alice Waters was invited to speak.

She urged the artisan cheese makers to go organic & stay small, and a few of manufacturers disagreed.

Getting tired of living the high tech life, I recently ran a business plan to see how much cheese I'd have to make & sell if I went into the business, just to be on par with what I make in my current industry. It would take a lot of pounds of cheese at $10-15/lb to just sustain my current quality of life.

I can understand why some of the small cheese makers feel the way they do.

[Steve Klc]

Nice catch, thanks for that link. Waters offered predictably delusional Slow Food-ish boilerplate and the cheese artisans countered, essentially saying sorry, but we live in the real world.

I wonder if this address received any other coverage and whether a panel discussion followed where Waters could rebut these real world reactions. I'd like to have heard or read that exchange. Thing is, I imagine most of the cheese artisans saying "judge me on my end result, my product is either good or it isn't" and I find that pretty compelling. I wonder how many manufacturers in the audience supported Waters and whether only a "few" disagreed.

Anyone have any other leads--or perhaps was in attendance?

[tanabutler]

Interesting—I just posted about the day I spent yesterday with both Alice Waters and John Fiscalini at Frog Hollow Farm. I'm going to send that article to the chef who coordinates the event and see what he says.

The Fiscalini cheeses, by the way, were extraordinary. He brought the prize-winning San Joaquin Gold and the Farmstead Bandage-Wrapped cheddar. Just typing those words made my mouth water.

[Hest88]

It's an interesting topic, but I don't think Alice Waters is all that wrong on an economic basis either.

Thing is, there are two ways to really make it as a niche business. One is to be first out of the gate, snatch all the name recognition you can, and grow big and healthy because you've had such a head start on the competition. I think of Neiman Ranch as such an example.

The other way is to stay small and expensive, making consumers believe that they are purchasing something exclusive--that none of the Jones can easily find or afford--and that reveals the consumer's superior tastes. If you grow too big, you lose your market by losing that illusion of exclusivity, plus you can no longer control the quality that in part made you so exclusive in the first place.

The risk is to be stuck in the middle. Too big to seem artisanal anymore--losing the exclusivity and your quality control--and yet too small to be profitable.

[fifi]

Interesting exchange...

On one end of the spectrum you have the idealists with their view. (My mental image is of sheep, cows and goats, frolicking in a meadow full of wildflowers, tended by Heidi.) On the other end you have, uh, Velveeta? As is usually the case, the winners will probably be somewhere in the middle... talented artisans with their feet firmly planted in reality. They will produce a good product and prosper. Then Heidi can go to college.

I recall one of those Mario shows where he is touring Italy. They visited one of the premier producers of Parmeggiano-Reggiano. (sp? I am too lazy to look it up.) It was a big operation and a lot of it looked kind of like a factory to me.

When I first started paying attention to Waters, I liked her ideas and philosophies. When I am gardening, it is pretty much "organic". (Shudder! The chemist in me really objects that term!) I applauded her efforts to support suppliers that were trying to move toward "sustainable production". (Whatever the hell THAT means.) I like her recipes ok. I just think that she has gotten a bit too shrill and preachy and (to be cynical), now that she has made her bucks, she can afford to drift into unrealistic idealism.

There! I have said it! I have besmirched St. Alice! Pummel away!

[SobaAddict70]

Why pummel? There aren't any more sacred cows these days. (j/k)

Soba

Edited August 18, 2003 by SobaAddict70 (log)

[docsconz]

This is a very interesting article. I doubt that too many of the artisanl producers went into it because they thought they were going to make a lot of money. Most probably did because of the personal values they held and their desire to make a good product. I certainly do not begrudge anyone making a living and making money, especially if their product warrants it. I for one am happy to spend my money and pay a greater price for quality and generally prefer to do it with smaller producers. I believe variety is good and many smaller producers is much better than fewer larger producers. I also believe that is generally healthier environmentally and personally.

The problem is that once the artisanal producers start having a certain level of success, the temptation to expand and make some real money becomes great. If they can do it without destroying the integrity of the product then I say power to them. Unfortunately, I think that will be the exception rather than the rule.

[Steve Klc]

Tana--is there a link to your post somewhere? We'd love to read it.

Hest88--good observation--however, if it was presented as business strategy to stay small and expensive because you'll ultimately make more money--with examples of other products and brands to reinforce the point--I think that would come across differently--less poetic, less spiritual, less, well, socialist. I also think those actually producing something rather than preaching--like these cheesemakers who produce more than give visionary speeches--would be in a better position to talk about brand identity, positioning and market penetration. Then we could realistically talk of various strategies and how to make a living in a crowded marketplace. That isn't how this Waters babble is usually presented, however.

I'm with fifi as well. I find I empathize with Olsen and Fiscalini and Johnson in all this--and the last thing any passionate artisan needs is some preachy semi-retired mythic figure recycling the same old-same old. That's why I wondered just how many or few of those artisans received Waters lecture positively and whether anyone broke it down like you did Hest88.

Problem with your interesting take, docsconz, is if most people who cared formed their opinion of what to buy and what is "good" according to St. Alice, you and they would miss out on Ginger Olsen's "award-winning Capricious farmstead goat cheese" because she doesn't purchase organic feed from an unknown supplier, she instead buys affordable alfalfa from a (known) local grower. And as a result, she fails the Alice Waters litmus test--and if you took your market direction from Alice Waters--her cheese wouldn't pass. You'd be less likely to buy and taste the cheese and form your own opinion. And that would be too bad. That's but one unintended consequence of a propped up saint sticking around too long. Misdirection.

[fifi]

I for one am happy to spend my money and pay a greater price for quality and generally prefer to do it with smaller producers. I believe variety is good and many smaller producers is much better than fewer larger producers. I also believe that is generally healthier environmentally and personally.

The problem is that once the artisanal producers start  having a certain level of success, the temptation to expand and make some real money becomes great. If they can do it without destroying the integrity of the product then I say power to them. Unfortunately, I think that will be the exception rather than the rule.

I completely agree with what you say. And I put my money where my mouth is on the subject. BUT...

I just have this really nagging doubt when you get to the fanatic end of the spectrum and their sometimes elitist customers. "You guys stay small down on the farm so I can pay you a ridiculous price for your product that I can brag about to my friends and in the meantime you still can't afford a new Chevy but I still have my precious small producer and I don't have to worry about the peasants being able to afford your good product so that you get too big to meet my definition of 'precious' anymore so I move on."

I just fail to believe that you can't build a "sustainable" business, making a good profit, supplying to a wider customer base. The more the customer base for good products is broadened, the better for everyone. The "ordinary" good folks of Italy eat a lot of that Parm, and they don't buy it from the smart cheese shops of NYC.

[tanabutler]

Steve, I hope I am linking properly. It's different than the WebX I've been used to from Salon and Readerville.

Outstanding in the Field farm dinner— August 17, 2003

[ronnie_suburban]

I applauded her efforts to support suppliers that were trying to move toward "sustainable production". (Whatever the hell THAT means.) I like her recipes ok. I just think that she has gotten a bit too shrill and preachy and (to be cynical), now that she has made her bucks, she can afford to drift into unrealistic idealism.

I do appreciate Alice's view of the big picture (even as it applies to artisanal cheeses) but I'm not so sure how easy it is to adhere to her 'philosophies' on a practical, everyday basis. I (vaguely) remember a saying...'it's easy to be a holy man while living at the top of a mountain.' For a business owner, I think the ideals she sets forth are even less reachable...as evidenced by some of the comments in the linked article.

In a perfect world, it's all renewable, sustainable and local...but this ain't a perfect world. Most of us don't have the luxury of doing anything more than 'picking our spots' when it's practical to do so.

=R=

[tanabutler]

I just posted elsethread that I experienced Alice Waters as being an idealist—she's got light just pouring from her eyes—and someone who regards the world much as Robert Kennedy must have: "Some men see things as they are and say 'why?'. I dream things that never were and say 'why not.' "

I know what you mean about living on top of the mountain, but I don't think she'd put herself there. I think her idealism transcends everything—including fussing about legalities and monetary issues. Someone's got to hold that ground. She's, um, ideal. Visionaries hold the vision, and inspire others to achieve it. And I've never seen a true visionary that could give up what they see, because they see with a different pair of (inner) eyes than most people. I get excited being around people like that, because generally the goodness ripples out.

I'd never think of her as a saint, though.

[curdnerd]

A few comments from a cheesemaker who started small, grew to medium-size, and now has started over again, and plans to stay small this time around. We've got 20 cows now, and plan to grow to no more that 40 or 50 in the long run.

From an engineering point of view, a cheesemaker converts milk->cheese->cash, with the two arrows representing "transfer functions".

The first arrow means buying and transporting milk, adding labor, energy, capital equipment amortization, incidental ingredients, and packaging, and turning out a product. If it is an aged cheese, then there is a second phase to this function, namely the ripening room, which is essentially another capital cost, energy cost, plus a 2-18 month time lag.

The second function is the marketing of the cheese, which can be as simple as a cigar box and cooler out by the farm gate, or as complex as warehouses, distributors, salespeople, bill collectors, etc.

If the cheesemaker is also farming the milk, then the first function really has three phases:

Cows->pastures/feed system->milk production->cheesemaking->ripening->marketing.

One of the biggest challenges of profitability in the cheese biz is the fact that these transfer functions have lots and lots of discontinuities, where a change in input causes a disproportionate change in output.

For example, consider a simple case of a transfer function, a garden hose. Turn on the faucet and out comes the water. Turn it a little, get a little, turn it more and you get a lot. The amount of water that flows is a function of the turn of the handle, provided that you stay within the limits of the hose size and the water pressure.

If you turn the faucet up all the way, and you aren't getting enough water, then you need a bigger pipe and higher water pressure from your well. Once you upgrade your plumbing, you're back to having a proportional transfer function, with a new, higher maximum.

Back to the cheese biz:

Let's say I start making cheese with one cow, as a hobby. The cow gives me 40 lbs of milk/day, and I make cheese every day in my five-gallon stockpot, and I end up with 4 lbs of cheese each day. After 2 months, I've got 240 lbs of nicely ripe cheese, with another 4 lbs arriving each day.

So, I start giving cheese away to my friends, and bartering with it for vegetables, the eye doctor, the mechanic, etc. At some point I realize that 4 lbs/day is an awful lot of cheese to move, if you cannot legally sell it, so I realize that I can either give up my hobby, risk incarceration, or go "legal", which means getting licensed to produce cheese for sale.

This is the first place where the trobules begin: in order to pass inspection even in the most lenient jurisdiction, I have to spend some real bucks to build a facility that meets code: washdown floor with drains into an approved septic, washable walls, stainless steel vat with smooth welds and an approved outlet valve ($1200 just for the valve!).

Next, since I'm spending all this cash on a facility, I need to start paying myself for my labor, unless I happen to have a trust fund, which alas, I don't. A well-known cheesemaker of means likes to quip "if you want to make a small fortune in cheese, start with a large one".

So, the question is, how much cheese do I need to make in order to make a living?

The cost of labor in cheesemaking is nearly a fixed cost: it costs the same to stir a 5 gallon vat as it does to stir a 500 gallon vat, but in the latter case you have a lot more cheese to bar the cost. So there's some good news, labor cost per lb goes down as batch size goes up.

Your milk cost starts out high, when you're buying just a few gallons at a time, and it gets lower as you move up toward buying by the hundred or thousand gallons. However, while it might be easy to find a farmer to sell you your 5 gallons of milk each day, if you need 50 or 100, the farmer won't be so eager, since you might endanger his volume premium, a little crumb of extra cash that the milk processors pay to farmers for producing a higher volume of milk. (of course, they do this to help keep the supply up and therefore prices low)

Also, while you can carry the 5 gallons in the back of your Volvo wagon, when you are talking about 100 gallons or more, it gets pretty hard to turn the corner, slosh, slosh.

So, the milk supply has discontinuities: in other words, there are many ranges of bach size that just don't work.

Now let's look at sales:

If you can sell all of your product out of a cooler with a cigar box on top at the roadside, then you have a truly perfect frictionless market, where stuff goes away and is replaced by cash. However, unless you live in a high-traffic area with no crime, this methodology probably won't work beyond, say, 5 lbs/day.

So now you decide to have market hours, either at the dairy or at one or more farmer's markets. Now you have some cost of sales: counter help, market fees, travel, packaging, and oy, vey,shrinkage: most markets make you pre-cut and wrap your cheese, soif you don't sell it, it gets dry and ugly within a week, unless you cryovac it, in which case it stays the same for a few weeks. It's dead, of course, but at least it's stable.

Ah, now it gets complicated: you must have enough cheese to support your sales channel. If you go to a market with 10 lbs of cheese, and sell it all for $200, you'll probably have trouble paying your sales person. So you'll need at least 25-50 lbs per market day in order to cover the fixed costs of being in a market. And, as you grow, you can start selling at multiple markets, but again, you have to have the volume to support them. Again, there are sizes that just don't work on the sales side, too.

Now, to make things even more complicted, let's say that you're farming the milk yourself. Now, instead of deciding how much milk to buy and how often to make cheese, now you decide each year how many cows you'll be milking, and you hope and pray for the right mix of sun and rain to keep your grass growing. Soil, you should know, tends to become alternately mud and dust, but it only grows grass during the transitions.

In other words, your milk supply becomes what the insurance industry likes to refer to as an act of God.

So, how does ANYONE actually make a living making cheese? It's not easy, but it can be done, we're doing it, I'm pleased as punch to say. Bu it requires a thorough udersanding of all the transfer functions that conned rain to soil to grass to cows to calves to milk to cheese to the cave to the market to the palate, where the transfer function becomes transubstantiaton, as fat and protein become stuff of the soul.

Back to Alice Waters. One of my most prized possessions is a thank you note that she sent me for some cheese that I had sent to her. She, along with Jean-Louis Palladin are special people to me, for the impact that they hav had on food and agriculture in America. I only hope that her comments to the cheese society included the term "grassfed" along with the word "organic". Organic milk produced by confining cows indoors and feeding them organically raised grain is NOT what the founders of the movement had in mind.

I keep telling people that the best way to change how food is grown in this world is to vote with your teeth. Chicken that costs 69 cents/lb, or cheddar that costs four bucks a pound has social costs, in the environment, the agricultural community, and right at home in your liver. Cheap food is what got us into the mire, and paying more for real quality, as only your palate can define it, is what is going to get us out.

[Steve Klc]

Well stated and a pleasure to read. Your conclusion, though, which I personally agree with, seems to contradict the Waters message. Her message doesn't seem to be "paying more for real quality, as only your palate can define it, is what is going to get us out." Her message has very little to do with palate--just to take a quote from this cheese address we're talking about. Most important to her:

“Sustainability is the most important issue in this world today,” Waters said. No matter how delicious the cheese, Waters said she will always inquire about its origins prior to consumption. “It’s a beautiful cheese but tell me, what were those animals eating? Was it organic feed? I want to support those people whose values are the same as mine,” Waters said. The contrary set of values – fast food values – represent everything that is fast, cheap and easy, she continued."

That said, a comment like yours:

"Organic milk produced by confining cows indoors and feeding them organically raised grain is NOT what the founders of the movement had in mind"

is exactly the kind of real world, knowing, producer-specific comment which deserves a wider audience. If only the visionaries would work that into their stock script instead of taking the simplistic, easy way out--"organic good, fast food values bad."

Thing is, too, there's a lot of room--in the real world-- between "organic and small scale" and those evil fast food values of big business. And she knows full well if we relied on our palates we'd find wonderful products all along that sliding scale.

Did either of you attend this gig?

[Fat Guy]

Jonathan it seems what you're saying, in part, is that you've found a herd size and production amount that makes you happy. That is to say, it will provide you with sufficient income to live your life in a manner that you find attractive, whereas growing larger than that would require more labor than you consider worthwhile given the return. But to focus on the quality side of the equation, how big do you think you could get while still making cheese that's just as good as what you're making now or are going to make at your projected maximum herd size? Could you, for example, go 10x larger and maintain quality? How about 100x or 1000x? If there were no other considerations -- if all you wanted to do was make the absolute most cheese you could make without sacrificing quality -- what kind of numbers could you do?

[tanabutler]

Well stated and a pleasure to read.

Steve Klc beat me to it.

I am learning so much every day at eGullet. It's so great to read the input of people who know so many different aspects of food.

Thanks.

[ronnie_suburban]

I just posted elsethread that I experienced Alice Waters as being an idealist—she's got light just pouring from her eyes—and someone who regards the world much as Robert Kennedy must have:  "Some men see things as they are and say 'why?'. I dream things that never were and say 'why not.' "

I know what you mean about living on top of the mountain, but I don't think she'd put herself there. I think her idealism transcends everything—including fussing about legalities and monetary issues. Someone's got to hold that ground. She's, um, ideal. Visionaries hold the vision, and inspire others to achieve it. And I've never seen a true visionary that could give up what they see, because they see with a different pair of (inner) eyes than most people. I get excited being around people like that, because generally the goodness ripples out.

I'd never think of her as a saint, though.

I'll concede that she is a sincere visionary--I respect her greatly and have no reason to believe otherwise--it's just that I'm also dealing with the reality that if I don't dismiss her from time to time, I feel guilty when I go to the 'regular' grocery store.

=R=

[ronnie_suburban]

Well stated and a pleasure to read.

Steve Klc beat me to it.

I am learning so much every day at eGullet. It's so great to read the input of people who know so many different aspects of food.

Thanks.

Jonathan,

Let me echo the above sentiments and say thank you for taking the time to write that. It was a pleasure to read and your effort is very much appreciated.

=R=

[fifi]

Thing is, there's a lot of room--in the real world-- between "organic and small scale" and those evil fast food values of big business.  And she knows full well if we relied on our palates we'd find wonderful products all along that sliding scale.

Steve, you beat me to it. Well said.

curdnerd... Thank you for the informative post. I had suspected some of the complexities in the "supply chain" of making cheese. I really enjoyed your exposition of the details and the delightful way you wrote it. (Milk sloshing in the Volvo cracked me up.) You obviously have an undertanding of the realities of the market and how to manage to fit that and your principals into a profitable enterprise. And, I am assuming that what I have heard here is true (of course), and you are able to produce an exceptional product. That was exactly my point when I referenced the Parm.

I am glad you got the thank you note from Waters. And I also understand where tanabutler is coming from regarding visionaries and their place in this world. But I still have a nagging worry about the cheese maker that gets a bad rep if Waters won't buy her cheese because she can't say for sure about her alfalfa. Does she feel any responsibility for potential effect on that cheese maker's market? Did she taste it first? Waters may be an idealist but she is also a public figure with a big audience. There is a responsibility that comes with that.

[slbunge]

Interesting discussion. Thanks for the insight Jonathan, I have been a fan of your since getting my first taste of an Egg Farm Dairy cheese many years ago.

I share the same feelings about their being a whole range of cheese between what Ms Waters is looking for and the commercial cheeses in supermarkets. Reading the post from Jonathan makes me think about all the risks associated with calculating the cost of a pound of cheese.

I'll continue to look for cheeses from small producers who seem to care about quality incredients and great taste. Those producers will know far more than I do about the specifics of their market conditions and I'll trust thier judgement on the selections they make. I expect to pay more for their cheese hoping that the price is not what the market will bear, but is fair.

[Steve Klc]

If anyone hasn't already followed tanabutler's link, recounting a wonderful farm dinner she attended with Alice Waters and one of the cheese artisans, you're missing something special:

http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?act=ST...T&f=13&t=26325&

What I wonder is--are winemakers being urged by Alice to "stay small and go organic" as she's urging these cheese artisans? Does anyone know who is closer to the scene out there? If not, why? How has her "take" been received by California's wine industry? Winemakers are farmers first. It would seem to me that if there was realistic value in this message, the higher end/boutique elements of the wine industry would be much more likely to have embraced this message, been certified "organic" and it would have a much greater overall impact than artisinal cheese makers, no?

I'd bet, though, that even the small, passionate, most environmentally-caring winemakers--say the Chappellets or Deborah Cahn and Ted Bennett of Navarro--wouldn't pass this too-idealistic Alice Waters litmus test--parroted by the media--if it were applied to them. Yet Navarro is always on the Chez Panisse list. Are there different value systems for cheese and wine?

As I was reading your post Jonathan, I thought of the Deborah and Ted example. They are "organic" and environmentally-aware according to their own vision and definition for their hilly land, not Alice's, not Oregon Tilth, etc. They protect their ancient redwood groves on the top of their hills in the Anderson Valley because it is the right thing to do. Their wines are wonderful, sell out at their current production levels mostly "direct to customers" and every year some of their planned production, especially with their late harvest botrytised dessert wines, is a crap shoot--and lost revenue--a farmer's best intentions affected by the vagaries of the weather. In my mind, they've transcended the Waters effect--their customers vote with their palate year after year by supporting their products and they aren't hijacked by not being organic enough or small enough according to someone else's standard.

In light of Steve Shaw's post, do you ever wonder how relevant the comparisons are between winemaking and cheesemaking? And what did you learn about yourself, the marketplace, and your strengths or values, which prompt you this time to stay small rather than become medium-sized again?

[docsconz]

Back to Alice Waters.  One of my most prized possessions is a thank you note that she sent me for some cheese that I had sent to her.  She, along with Jean-Louis Palladin are special people to me, for the impact that they hav had on food and agriculture in America.  I only hope that her comments to the cheese society included the term "grassfed" along with the word "organic".  Organic milk produced by confining cows indoors and feeding them organically raised grain is NOT what the founders of the movement had in mind.

Jonathon, Great post - I was hoping you would chime in.

While I don't know the full story on what Ms. Waters actually said, I would have to think that her sentiments if not her words would echo yours. She is a major US supporter of Slow Food. What you stated is integral to the Slow Food philosophy. You are right - "certified organic" is not enough. It is also extremely expensive and difficult for a small farm to be "certified" organic even if their practices exceed the standards. Unfortunately, this may not be reflected in Ms. water's provenance search, thereby limiting support for the truly small quality farmer.

Sustainability IS important. Sustainability of the business since it does no good for the business to succomb to economic losses, but also sustainability of the environment both local, and beyond. An economically successful business in the short haul will not last unless its environment remains suitable for continued quality production over the long haul. So many commercial agricultural practices are designed for maximal nearterm gain and de-emphasize the potential long-term repercussions.

[curdnerd]

I'd like to clarify a point that might ghave been clouded by the cobwebs of my mind last night, as I unwound my post into the computer: the health and well-being of the cows expresses itself directly on the palate, if the cheesemaker didn't make any mistakes in process. So, by extension, what's inside the wrapper tells you more about the sustainability of the cheese than adjectives on the label. Alice has a good palate, and she does indeed buy uncertified products when her palate tells her that ther'es real quality in there.

[Rail Paul]

That outside agency, whether it's NOFA or Tilth, etc, exists to replace the traditional bond between grower and consumer. I've seen Jonathan's farm, understand his logic, and trust his track record. So, I buy his cheese and bread regularly. I'll buy some groceries at Trader Joe's because I trust their vetting procedure.

In the July Gourmet magazine, Andrew Griffin and Julia Wiley explained why Mariquita Farm hasn't sought organic certification for their crops: it's too expensive. Their customers know them, trust them, and accept that Griffin and Wiley eat the same food. Ultimately, Alice Waters is in the same role, deciding whom she trusts for the supply of food served to her customers.

(Thanks to tanabutler for her comments on Mariquita Farm)

Mariquita Farm

[Hest88]

Curdnerd, thanks for the interesting and cogent post. Fascinating to read about the nitty-gritty that goes into sustaining a cheesemaking business.

I admire Alice Waters for her unswerving commitment, and wish we lived in a world where everyone could adhere to her vision and be profitable. She, and I, are also lucky enough to live in an area where everyone around us spouts the same sentiment--whether they practice it in real life or not--so I think it makes it easier for her to remain idealistic. I just hope that underneath her much-needed zealotry she also takes into consideration real pressures and real obstacles.