TDG: Wine Camp: Corky Paranoia Redux

Fat Guy · August 17, 2003

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Andre · August 17, 2003

Again a pleasure to read,

Whenever a waiter\ess asks me if I want a glass after choosing a wine, I answer that it is impolite to drink from the bottle.

"Corky wines are easy to spot and once you get the knack it's like riding a bike. First of all think musty. Find an old damp basement with some books that have been sitting there for a few years. Open that damp book and insert your nose. Breath deeply. That's what corky wine smells like".

How about plastic ?

When the first plastic bottled 1.5l mineral water appeared, I could not drink it because of the plastic flavor it had. The artificial addition was unacceptable to me.

Water belonged to nature and plastic did not. You can get used to them but they can never marry.

Another type of modern cork that just hit the market is the Metacork I will look for a link.

Andre · August 17, 2003

Metacork:

http://www.bullworks.net/daily/metacork.wmv

IrishCream · August 17, 2003

Thanks for demystifying this for the wine amatuer. I know exactly what a musty book smells like! So what's the deal with examining the cork?

Andn how do you handle it if a restaurant resists your diagnosis of a corked bottle of wine?

Craig Camp · August 17, 2003

So what's the deal with examining the cork?

The cork should be presented for two reasons:

1. So you can see the trademark so you know it is not a fake.

2. If a cork is really badly infected you can pick up the odor on the cork. However this is not a totally reliable method only an indicator of potential problems. Sometimes the cork smells musty but the wine is fine. The only accurate test is to smell and taste the wine.

Craig Camp · August 17, 2003

How about plastic ?
When the first plastic bottled 1.5l mineral water appeared, I could not drink it because of the plastic flavor it had. The artificial addition was unacceptable to me.

This is true. There is no doubt here in Italy that the same mineral water tastes fresher in glass than in plastic.

Fat Guy · August 17, 2003

Though eliminating corks would eliminate corked wine, it would not eliminate all defective bottles. There are still the problems of oxidation, maderization, and refermentation to contend with -- all of which are valid reasons for sending back a bottle of wine. Craig, since you were so articulate on the issue of how to detect corked wine, can you give similarly clear instructions on how to detect other rejection-worthy defects?

Also, from the restaurant's perspective, I have to sympathize with managers who over time grow skeptical of customers' claims that wines are corked. Too many customers use the term "corked" to refer to matters of taste. Certainly, as the article indicates, education on both sides of the equation is required.

Fat Guy · August 17, 2003

When the first plastic bottled 1.5l mineral water appeared, I could not drink it because of the plastic flavor it had. The artificial addition was unacceptable to me.

There's plastic and there's plastic. The stuff they're using to line the insides of screw caps is pretty damn inert. If they made whole bottles out of the same material, I doubt you'd be able to detect a difference between glass and plastic bottled water. I assume it's just that the material would be too expensive for water bottles, so they go with cheaper plastics that do impart some (though less and less over time as technology improves) taste.

Craig Camp · August 17, 2003

Though eliminating corks would eliminate corked wine, it would not eliminate all defective bottles. There are still the problems of oxidation, maderization, and refermentation to contend with -- all of which are valid reasons for sending back a bottle of wine. Craig, since you were so articulate on the issue of how to detect corked wine, can you give similarly clear instructions on how to detect other rejection-worthy defects?
Also, from the restaurant's perspective, I have to sympathize with managers who over time grow skeptical of customers' claims that wines are corked. Too many customers use the term "corked" to refer to matters of taste. Certainly, as the article indicates, education on both sides of the equation is required.

...ah - the proverbial can of worms. First of all the rule for returning wines to stores or in restaurants should be that the only reasons that justify this are that the wine is technically faulted in some way. Those faults can come from bad winemaking, bad storage or the failure of the cork to keep the wine in top condition.

To give a outline of this is difficult after all some wines are oxidized on purpose. In Greece they add pine tar to wine. Dr. Barolet added cognac to his Burgundies. What is right is a rather broad concept. What is legal a whole other concept.

If you don't like the way the wine tastes it is your problem as long as the wine is SUPPOSED to taste that way. Give it to your bad neighbors if you hate it.

However, if somebody sells you a ultra-sweet dessert wine and told you it was dry as a bone you have a valid complaint.

Andre · August 17, 2003

When the first plastic bottled 1.5l mineral water appeared, I could not drink it because of the plastic flavor it had. The artificial addition was unacceptable to me.
There's plastic and there's plastic. The stuff they're using to line the insides of screw caps is pretty damn inert. If they made whole bottles out of the same material, I doubt you'd be able to detect a difference between glass and plastic bottled water. I assume it's just that the material would be too expensive for water bottles, so they go with cheaper plastics that do impart some (though less and less over time as technology improves) taste.

The screw cap is yet to stand the test of time.

Looking at the other side of things.

Aged wines are in touch with the cork and some flavor will affect the wine over the years.

Don't you think that would be missed ?

Humans used to use barrels as a mean of transportation since glass was so sensitive. Now we use barrels mostly for flavors and even moved on to oak chips.

Craig Camp · August 17, 2003

The screw cap is yet to stand the test of time.
Aged wines are in touch with the cork and some flavor will affect the wine over the years.
Humans used to use barrels as a mean of transportation since glass was so sensitive. Now we use barrels mostly for flavors and even moved on to oak chips.

1. Not that screw tops have, but natural corks don't seem to be standing the test of time either. When I keep wines for 20, 30 or more years only to open an undrinkable bottle because of a bad cork I don't think they have stood the test of time. What other beverage would you accept a packaging failure rate of over 5%? Wine sometimes suffers and sometimes benefits from the quasi religious status conferred on it.

2. What flavor does the cork add? Good question. If we are looking for totally neutral seals why would we not jump at modern technological advances just like we do with cars and computers?

3. Barrels impart more than just the wood flavor of chips. The slow, controlled oxidation is the most significant advantage that barrels can bring to SOME wines.

Fat Guy · August 17, 2003

The screw cap is yet to stand the test of time.

It doesn't need to. The point is to use it on wines meant to be consumed right away or within a few years, while continuing to perform longer-term studies (many of which have now been underway for quite some time -- I think in Australia they have screw top bottles from something like 30 years ago). As I understand it there is currently no question that screw tops are good for 10 or even 20 years. That means they're appropriate for all but the most elite level of ageworthy wine -- in other words almost all wine, just not necessarily first growth Bordeaux and the like.

Craig Camp · August 17, 2003

It doesn't need to. The point is to use it on wines meant to be consumed right away or within a few years

Exactly. 99% of the wine produced does not require (and the producers don't want) aging. If you eliminate the corks for everyday wines corks for great wines will improve. There is not an unlimited supply of natural cork.

Fat Guy · August 17, 2003

the rule for returning wines to stores or in restaurants should be that the only reasons that justify this are that the wine is technically faulted in some way

I'd depart from that in two ways: 1) There's a point of super-expensive agedness where the risk of a bad bottle has to fall at least in part on the customer. Restaurants aren't in the business of providing insurance on $5000 bottles of wine. People who play in that league understand that they assume some or all of the risk of a bad bottle. 2) I wish more restaurants would adopt the attitude that, even after pouring a taste, a rejected bottle with no technical flaws will yield 4 glasses at the bar at 25% of the bottle price. If the bottle isn't too expensive, it should be no big deal for restaurants to accept the occasional rejection based purely on preference and to sell it off in this manner.

Craig Camp · August 17, 2003

the rule for returning wines to stores or in restaurants should be that the only reasons that justify this are that the wine is technically faulted in some way
I'd depart from that in two ways: 1) There's a point of super-expensive agedness where the risk of a bad bottle has to fall at least in part on the customer. Restaurants aren't in the business of providing insurance on $5000 bottles of wine. People who play in that league understand that they assume some or all of the risk of a bad bottle. 2) I wish more restaurants would adopt the attitude that, even after pouring a taste, a rejected bottle with no technical flaws will yield 4 glasses at the bar at 25% of the bottle price. If the bottle isn't too expensive, it should be no big deal for restaurants to accept the occasional rejection based purely on preference and to sell it off in this manner.

We will request Mark Sommelier's consultation on this, but I think if a customer orders an expensive old bottle and it is corked that it can and should be returned. The scary thing for restaurants about old wines in not corked bottles, but consumers that don't know what old wine tastes like.

It is very true that a rejected bottle that is good wine can be easily sold profitably by the glass. Unfortunately many restaurants also sell the rejected wine from bottles that are actually corked by the glass.

docsconz · August 17, 2003

The metacork looks interesting. I wonder how the cost compares to a traditional cork. It certainly looks nicer than your basic screw cap and seems to have some practicality to it. The worst thing about corked wines is that one never knows when one will be encountered - often at the worst times such as that special bottle saved for a special occasion :sad:

Mark Sommelier · August 17, 2003

the rule for returning wines to stores or in restaurants should be that the only reasons that justify this are that the wine is technically faulted in some way
I'd depart from that in two ways: 1) There's a point of super-expensive agedness where the risk of a bad bottle has to fall at least in part on the customer. Restaurants aren't in the business of providing insurance on $5000 bottles of wine. People who play in that league understand that they assume some or all of the risk of a bad bottle. 2) I wish more restaurants would adopt the attitude that, even after pouring a taste, a rejected bottle with no technical flaws will yield 4 glasses at the bar at 25% of the bottle price. If the bottle isn't too expensive, it should be no big deal for restaurants to accept the occasional rejection based purely on preference and to sell it off in this manner.
We will request Mark Sommelier's consultation on this, but I think if a customer orders an expensive old bottle and it is corked that it can and should be returned. The scary thing for restaurants about old wines in not corked bottles, but consumers that don't know what old wine tastes like.
It is very true that a rejected bottle that is good wine can be easily sold profitably by the glass. Unfortunately many restaurants also sell the rejected wine from bottles that are actually corked by the glass.

Craig,

Commercially available wines that are corked or cooked can be returned to the wholesaler for credit or replacement. When we get into the realm of older wines, rare wines and auction wines, the game changes. For me, provenance is everything. Where has that wine been for the last 30 years? (This is one reason that I no longer do any business with C&E.) You are correct in assuming that the average consumer will sit there and happily drink a horribly corked wine, thinking its corkiness is just an exotic flavor. When I encounter a corked bottle at work, I run away and fetch a new bottle. The customer is always curious why I ran away and brought a new one. With few exceptions, I detect the TCA from the first sniff of the cork. This is why the cork is presented: the make sure it smells like wine and not wet books. I also always make a point of letting customers taste the good bottle versus the bad bottle so that they can see and taste the obvious difference for future reference. As far as having the customer assume some of the risk when buying an older wine, unless that is specifically stated on the winelist or menu, it is un-enforcable and can only lead to bad feelings. As far as selling off a rejected bottle by the glass, I can only say that I never have had a bottle rejected purely because the customer didn't like the wine I had sold him. This is part of the art of assessing the taste people are looking for. Besides, if it is an expensive bottle, the chef and I would drink it first! :raz:

tommy · August 17, 2003

great article, craig. it should be required reading for every server, manager, and bartender on the planet. clearly they all too often have no idea what they're doing.

Edited August 17, 2003 by tommy (log)

Andre · August 17, 2003

I fully agree that there is no need for natural cork on the short run.

New Zealand is a big fan of the screw caps yet I see little export of Nrew Zealan wines with them.

It seems the plastick corks left a bad impact, namely when a lot of South-African wines were exported with them.

There are still a few questions left unanswered:

What do you think will happen if there is a change in temperature and the wine needs to expand ?

Will it seal the bottle in the same manner if it heats up ?

The plastic corks suffered the most from wines with high acidity. If I am to pick an Italian wine: Morellino Di Scansano 2000 by Elisabetta Geppetti. The plastic cork was in a bad state all through the many wines I opened. Do you think acidity iss an issue when it comes to the screw cap, even though

bottled don't need to lie down ?

Craig: "an expensive old bottle and it is corked that it can and should be returned."

From a customer point of view, a big yes, but that could mean the end of aged wines in a restaurants or any other than private stocks. The customer is always right could pose a problem in this case.

Would love to hear Mark's response as well.

Mark Sommelier · August 18, 2003

Andre said:

The customer is always right could pose a problem in this case.

Andre,

A friend of mine in the business says: "The customer may not always be right, but the customer is always the customer".

docsconz · August 18, 2003

I would think that for the very expensive bottle of wine that the customer considered "corked" that it would make a big difference if the customer was a respected "regular" or an unknown.

Mark Sommelier · August 18, 2003

TCA and Brett have similar smells: DISCUSS

melkor · August 18, 2003

TCA and Brett have similar smells: DISCUSS

To my nose Brett is more of a band-aid box smell and TCA is more of a 'someone strained this through a gym sock' smell. But overall I agree with you, and I also generally find them to be equally welcome in the wine I'm drinking :blink:

Mark Sommelier · August 18, 2003

TCA and Brett have similar smells: DISCUSS
To my nose Brett is more of a band-aid box smell and TCA is more of a 'someone strained this through a gym sock' smell. But overall I agree with you, and I also generally find them to be equally welcome in the wine I'm drinking

melkor,

A small bit of brett is normal in certain Bordeaux. Ducru is pretty bretty. It is hard convincing those customers who know what TCA smells like that brett is a different thing.

melkor · August 18, 2003

TCA and Brett have similar smells: DISCUSS
To my nose Brett is more of a band-aid box smell and TCA is more of a 'someone strained this through a gym sock' smell. But overall I agree with you, and I also generally find them to be equally welcome in the wine I'm drinking
melkor,
A small bit of brett is normal in certain Bordeaux. Ducru is pretty bretty. It is hard convincing those customers who know what TCA smells like that brett is a different thing.

People aren't loving the 'it's wet dog, not wet cardboard' explanation? :laugh:

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