New York bagels? Feh

[fresco]

An eGullet poster from the Heartland says that Montreal bagels have it all over their New York counterparts, and Bux, a New Yorker, agrees:

http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?act=ST...T&f=26&t=25307&

[menton1]

Well, I've never had bagels in Montreal, but I agree that most NY Bagels have gone downhill.

The best bagels, as I remember them 30 years ago in NYC, were much denser and a lot smaller. And there were much fewer places to buy them. Now, there is a Bagel Shop on every block and they are too large and have too much air. I suppose many people think a larger bagel is a better bagel. Some are so big you could use them as pillows.

I don't have specifics, but I'm sure there are a small number of bagel shops in NYC making the smaller, denser bagel that is closer to the original.

[slkinsey]

I'd say that there are some places in Montreal that are excellent and are better than many places in NYC. That said, they are not as good IMO as the best places in NYC -- my favorite (and a smaller, denser bagel) being Lenny's on 98th and Broadway.

[Jason Perlow]

Generally speaking I think the bagels in Queens and NJ have manhattan beat.

[alacarte]

WHAAT?!?!?

Sacrilege, utter sacrilege.

Well, I'm told that the quality of bagels has much to do with the water in which they are boiled -- NY water has high mineral content compared to most areas, and that's why NY bagels kick butt compared to most other places. I have no knowledge of the properties of Montreal water.

I attended a presentation a year or so ago given by Annie Hauck-Lawson, who curated a food exhibit called "The New York Food Story" for the Smithsonian in Washington D.C. The exhibit included most of the ethnic cuisines (Chinese, Italian, Polish, etc.) found in NY, and included an exhibit on bagel-making to represent Jewish food and culture. She said that she brought vats of New York water with her to D.C., to ensure that the bagels would taste like bagels should.

P.S. The hit of the exhibit were bialys -- apparently few D.C. area attendees had ever heard of them, let alone sampled them!

[alacarte]

And by the way, Bux, we are hereby revoking your official status as a New Yorker. You may claim Canadian citizenship going forward.

[hjshorter]

P.S. The hit of the exhibit were bialys -- apparently few D.C. area attendees had ever heard of them, let alone sampled them!

I find that very hard to believe. Bialys are available all over the DC area. If this was an exhibit down on the mall, like for the Folklife Festival, then she was talking to tourists - most likely from the Midwest (not that there's anything wrong with being from the Midwest. ) or from other countries.

[Bux]

And by the way, Bux, we are hereby revoking your official status as a New Yorker. You may claim Canadian citizenship going forward.

Moi?

I always thought New York water was relatively soft -- meaning it had few minerals. That's why soaps and detergents lather up so well.

There's nothing wrong with being from the midwest, or the south or southwest for that matter, but it does remind me of a story told about a group of midwestern methodist ladies -- or were they southern baptists? -- who convened at a Miami Beach hotel some time back. As they were not the traditional clientele, the management went out of their way to be solicitious and at the end of the convention, asked how they enjoyed their stay. The answers were very positive with one exception, almost to a woman, they complained about the stale donuts.

[VivreManger]

The real question is what you want to do with your bagel. Eaten on its own, with little or no adornment the best Montreal bagel is certainly tastier than the H&H bafel, the NYC product I know best. On the other hand the NY bagel may very well be superior when its major task is to act as a delivery system for smoked salmon, onion, tomato, chive cheese, capers, etc.

I prefer to bake my H&H bagel for about 5 minutes in a 350-400 toaster oven so the crust is hard and the doughy interior is soft and steamy. Cutting into the sucker, yields a puff of doughy steam which is very pleasant. The contrast between the soft yielding interior and the crusty dough outside is delightful. The butter or cream cheese slightly melts on contact and the cool salmon and onions/tomato create another combination of cool and warm for the palate.

Edited August 3, 2003 by VivreManger (log)

[Bux]

The real question is what you want to do with your bagel.  Eaten on its own, with little or no adornment the best Montreal bagel is certainly tastier than the H&H bafel, the NYC product I know best.  On the other hand the NY bagel may very well be superior when its major task is to act as a delivery system for smoked salmon, onion, tomato, chive cheese, capers, etc.

I prefer to bake my H&H bagel for about 5 minutes in a 350-400 toaster oven so the crust is hard and the doughy interior is soft and steamy.  Cutting into the sucker, yields a puff of doughy steam which is very pleasant.  The contrast between the soft yielding interior and the crusty dough outside is delightful.  The butter or cream cheese slightly melts on contact and the cool salmon and onions/tomato create another combination of cool and warm for the palate.

No, the real question is whether or not there is a standard for bagels.

The bagels of my youth were stars, not delivery boys.

[Fat Guy]

No, the real question is whether or not there is a standard for bagels.

The real question is "Why is there something instead of nothing?"

But there are some other questions worth asking. For example, "If there are standards for bagels, are New York and Montreal bagels striving to meet the same standards."

Let's get one thing straight: Most bagels in Montreal suck. There are fewer than 10 and probably more like 4 places in Montreal (and maybe only 2) that make excellent bagels.

And another thing: Most bagels in New York suck. There are probably fewer than 10 places in Manhattan that make top-tier bagels, and some would argue there are none remaining in the borough that adequately represent the heyday of New York bagel making.

Now, if we're comparing best to best they are definitely two different species of bagel. The Montreal bagel is smaller, has an eggy dough, is boiled in a honey-water solution, and is baked in a wood-fired brick oven. The New York bagel -- even a small one -- is larger, denser, not eggy at all, and is invariably made in a gas or electric oven at a lower temperature.

As between the two, however, I find it hard to believe an educated foodie with no prior exposure to either would ever choose the New York bagel.

[Jason Perlow]

Of course, this is all mental masturbation, because for most people, top notch New York and Montreal bagels are unobtanium. The same for excellent Pastrami and montreal smoke meat.

[alacarte]

P.S. The hit of the exhibit were bialys -- apparently few D.C. area attendees had ever heard of them, let alone sampled them!

I find that very hard to believe. Bialys are available all over the DC area. If this was an exhibit down on the mall, like for the Folklife Festival, then she was talking to tourists - most likely from the Midwest (not that there's anything wrong with being from the Midwest. ) or from other countries.

Yes, she did say it was held on the mall.

[fresco]

Bagels seem to be one of the odd exceptions to the general rule that moving into the mainstream of food necessarily means the quality and integrity get watered down. In the past 10 years in Toronto, bagels have finally become about as popular as a breakfast item as they are in New York and Montreal. That does mean a lot of bad bagels are consumed, but it has also helped to create a market for a superior, Montreal-style bagel produced in wood-fired ovens, etc.

In my own case, it means that an edible bagel is now available within a two-minute walk of the house, on a stretch of the high street that has become a major tourist attraction because of its Greek restaurants. On weekends the lineup for bagels is often out to the street.

[SteveW]

So in Toronto now, at the bagel places, a wood-burning oven is allowed to baked these suckers? Previously I heard it was disallowed.

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Steve

[fresco]

So in Toronto now, at the bagel places, a wood-burning oven is allowed to baked these suckers? Previously I heard it was disallowed.

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Steve

If you read the first review in the link below you'll see that it specifies "wood-burning oven" And there are also a ton of non-bagel places that boast of their wood-fired cooking capabilities:

http://www.toronto.com/profile/755508/?cr_index=1

[schaem]

Of course, this is all mental masturbation, because for most people, top notch New York and Montreal bagels are unobtanium.

Right. I may be willing to accept that Montreal bagels are better, but since bagels are generally considered breakfast food, and since I'm hungry now, and since i live in Brooklyn...I guess I'll just have to suffer the inferior (but quite dense, chewy, and tasty) product at the Brooklyn Bread Co. (And thank the gods I'm no longer waking up in Minnesota).

[fresco]

Of course, this is all mental masturbation, because for most people, top notch New York and Montreal bagels are unobtanium.

Right. I may be willing to accept that Montreal bagels are better, but since bagels are generally considered breakfast food, and since I'm hungry now, and since i live in Brooklyn...I guess I'll just have to suffer the inferior (but quite dense, chewy, and tasty) product at the Brooklyn Bread Co. (And thank the gods I'm no longer waking up in Minnesota).

Brooklyn does have its own treasures, though. The best roti I've ever encountered anywhere in my travels was last year in Bed Sty, which also has a cafe that makes a truly amazing red velvet cake. Back to bagels.

[schaem]

Brooklyn does have its own treasures, though.

Yeah, and some of those I-talian fellas make decent sandwiches.

[fresco]

Brooklyn does have its own treasures, though.

Yeah, and some of those I-talian fellas make decent sandwiches.

I could have worded that one better.

[schaem]

i guess i should utilize emoticons, to indicate when my tounge is in cheek. (insert tounge-in-cheek face)

[SteveW]

So in Toronto now, at the bagel places, a wood-burning oven is allowed to baked these suckers? Previously I heard it was disallowed.

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Steve

If you read the first review in the link below you'll see that it specifies "wood-burning oven" And there are also a ton of non-bagel places that boast of their wood-fired cooking capabilities:

http://www.toronto.com/profile/755508/?cr_index=1

OK, I have just been told(by someone in the know), that it's illegal to have a wood-burning bagel oven in Toronto, but somehow Kettleman's Bagel has bypassed this law. Kettleman's is the only bagel shop in Toronto with a wood-burning oven. Wood burning pizza ovens are totally different animal, compared to wood-burning bagel ovens(wood burning pizza ovens has never been illegal in Toronto).

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Steve

[coughy]

hasn't anyone been to Ess-a-bagel???????

[Bux]

hasn't anyone been to Ess-a-bagel???????

The attorney general hasn't forced them to change the name to Ess-a-big-fat-roll? An excellent big fat roll designed to deliver the cream cheese to your mouth with little or no hole to lose the best part during the move to the mouth. Need I say more? So-so bagel, good roll.

[slkinsey]

...NY water has high mineral content compared to most areas...

Actually, the exact opposite it correct. NYC has some of the softest water in the US.