Chile vs. Argentina

[Dr Vino]

A web site for Argentine wines claims that they are from the "right" side of the Andes. Do you agree?

What are your favorite wines from the region? Any good picks under $10?

Cheers,

Tyler

[Craig Camp]

Signor Dottore Vino,

I suppose it depends which direction you are facing. I just don't taste these wines enough. When I am in Italy they are not generally available and when I am in the US I am concentrating on other wines. In my experience the wines from Argentina are clearly superior. Do you think this is a function of vineyards and climate or winemaking ability?

[=Mark]

It is my understanding that Argentinian vinyards are comparable if not superior to Chilean, but that the Chilean Govt. went much further in uniting and marketing the industry.

[Carema]

An alarming lack of acidity makes wines from S America attractive to the layconsumer and boring to the collector/buyer/corkdork. Malbec is a big hit with the kids- all fruit, beef blood and copper but no tang. An Argetinian nanny came in the shop once and told me that the only good wine from Argentina comes from the mountainous Cafayate region and not boring old Mendoza. In Chile I search out Carmenere, the lost varietal of Bordeaux. Carmenere has a nose of wet cement and freshly cut Jalapeno pepper, and can also be very floral (violets). It can be Merlotesque, save for the nose and some really nice ones have a surprising amount of structure. Alpatagua makes three levels of Carmenere starting at about 12 bucks for the entry tier. The high end one (Grial) is oaked (of course) and so monstrous it is barely drinkable until aerated thouroughly. But that's a tough sell on the shelf for about 50 bucks so I don't stock it.

[Craig Camp]

In Chile I search out Carmenere, the lost varietal of Bordeaux. Carmenere has a nose of wet cement and freshly cut Jalapeno pepper, and can also be very floral (violets). It can be Merlotesque, save for the nose and some really nice ones have a surprising amount of structure. Alpatagua makes three levels of Carmenere starting at about 12 bucks for the entry tier. The high end one (Grial) is oaked (of course) and so monstrous it is barely drinkable until aerated thouroughly. But that's a tough sell on the shelf for about 50 bucks so I don't stock it.

Bravo Carema - Carmenere is also getting renewed attention in Italy where it was mis-identifed as cabernet franc in Veneto and Friuli. There are many interesting wines coming from this varietal in Italy - and South America.

[Craig Camp]

An alarming lack of acidity

Overproduction disease - what do you think Carema?

[Steve Klc]

Quite by coincidence I had both the Concha y Toro Terrunyo Carmenere 2000 and the Susana Balbo "Crios" Torrontes Cafayate 2002 during a meal last weekend and enjoyed both--have you had either Carema? I didn't see what they cost, I'm guessing the former was somewhat pricey, maybe 50 bucks on a restaurant list and which might have been perceived just serious enough to please a few corkdorks and the latter was more of a bargain, fruity, floral and interesting. Both proved very good food wines.

[Carema]

To Craig:

Perhaps overproduction but also I think it is a climatical factor (its hot down there, n'est pas?) Also not sure about rescidification (sensing there is not a lot like in Australia)....

To Steve:

I stock the Torrontes, it retails for about 16 bucks and yes it is delightful although I have another one from La Rioja (another Hilly region there) called la Yunta that sees a touch of oak aging and is a bit more fat. Crios means offspring by the way. Those wines are her babies I think. The Carmenere I have not had. Do you remember its qualities? The cool thing about Torrontes is that tease of apricot in the nose and then dry dry dry once inside.

[Steve Klc]

For me it was like a ripe melon but yes aromatic yet dry, dry, dry.

The carmenere we also found delightful: just complex enough, just bold enough, very tannic, fresh blackberry if I had to pin down one fruit and some spice late. We had it with duck confit, lamb shank, quail with a tamarind glaze and grilled beef and it proved very all-purpose. I have to admit being surprised a Concha y toro wine could be so good.

How does the Crios sell? Do you have to push it and explain the odd grape or does the cute green label sell itself?

[Craig Camp]

Perhaps overproduction but also I think it is a climatical factor (its hot down there, n'est pas?) Also not sure about rescidification (sensing there is not a lot like in Australia)....

I am sure they can do what ever they want - not many legal restrictions as you can imagine. One of my biggest problems with South American wines is that strange... tip of the tongue acidity that seems to come from getting your acid from bags instead of nature.

[Carema]

One of my biggest problems with South American wines is that strange...  tip of the tongue acidity that seems to come from getting your acid from bags instead of nature.

tip of the tongue, eh? I will have to focus on that next time. I always sense a gritty chalkiness that brightens fruit, and there is some dull a** fruit sometimes out of these regions. Still not my favorite wines but the BYOB customers love em so...

[Craig Camp]

One of my biggest problems with South American wines is that strange...  tip of the tongue acidity that seems to come from getting your acid from bags instead of nature.

tip of the tongue, eh? I will have to focus on that next time. I always sense a gritty chalkiness that brightens fruit, and there is some dull a** fruit sometimes out of these regions. Still not my favorite wines but the BYOB customers love em so...

...aahhh - that's right. You are right across from Tango Sur - the best steak BYOB in Chicago. You know with that garlic sauce they have you need a bit of ZIP in your red wine.

[Carema]

How does the Crios sell?  Do you have to push it and explain the odd grape or does the cute green label sell itself?

We sell a lot os Crios Cab but in our store everything is a damned handsell (if we had KJ we would probably have to hand sell that too "here is a wonderful off dry Chardonnay chock full of oaky chips..."). The Torrontes sells allright given its relative obscurity. Our new big thing is Portugual now (we are fickle) and were are selling a lot of the Jao Pirez Dry Muscat which if you like the Torrontes will cause a new crush in your white wine world I am sure. It is from the region of Terras do Sado and imported by Whitehall co (www.ewhitehall.com) bitter orange peel and lemony apricots and a hint of frizzante.

[Winot]

Just got back frrom two weeks in Argentina which included a trrip to the Cafayate wine region (190km south of Salta).

Torrontes was our real find and we drank quite a lot of it (even though the food is all steak) cos the weather was quite hot. The descriptions are all spot on -- Oz Clarke likens it to a muscat (grapey yet dry) which seems about right.

The best we tried was Michel Torino's top cuvee "Don David". Michel Etchart also good. We visiteed Etchart's vineyard and came away with a bottle of his top red "Arnaldo B Etchart" but haven't tasted it yet.

The reds from the region were decent cab sauv/malbec mixes but nothing to challenge the old world.

[Dr Vino]

Susana Balbo (Crios) is definitely a good producer in the mid-range. The Torrontes is very nice, as is the Syrah-Bonarda in the reds. The Alamos line is also a good value from Argentina.

The frustrating thing to me about Argentine wines is not the winemaking, which is excellent in the exported wines, but rather it is that the prices did not fall while the peso was crashing! Pegged at one to the dollar until late 2001, it fell to 4 to the dollar in 2002. Were these tremendous cost advantages passed on to the US consumer? No! This was a huge missed opportunity for the producers to gain recognition and market share. Now the peso has rallied against the dollar (indeed, which currency hasn't!) so the window that the currency dip provided is closing somewhat.

Winot, did you stay in the Park Hyatt Mendoza when you were there?

Cheers.

[Winot]

Winot, did you stay in the Park Hyatt Mendoza when you were there?

We didn't make it to the Mendoza region (which is a long way from both BA and Salta/Cafayate). There are some great hotels in BA though, and the peso collapse makes a tremendous difference to pricees generally.

[helenas]

Yesterday we had a bottle of 2001 Maipo Valley Vitisterra Grand Reserve Syrah, our first foray into Chilean wines, and it was very nice, especially with rosemary/mushrooms braised pork ribs.

[ctgm]

From a personal point of view, I think that Chile has let a fantastic opportunity slip. In England they made a concerted effort to take on the Australian wines and had a lot of success. Maybe it was the novelty of it, but it seems that the cheaper range of Aussie wines reassesed themselves and are making much better quality than the Chilean wines of similar price. To a certain extent I believe that over production is the problem with Chile.

The 2 wines that have ahd a "glorious" past who under achieve are Cusino Macul and Los Vascos. I have been lucky enough to try some from the days before big investment and find them much better than todays wines (having said that I must confess to having been put off them so have not tried for a couple of years now).

The only Chilean wine that I have in my cellar is the 1988/1994/1995 don Melchior which is quite a nice drop.

As far as Argentina is concerned the UK market share is still very small. I am slightly biased about the wines as I have a friend who makes and has a vineyard in the south. His own vieyard makes a fantastic 100% Malbec, which he sells to his distributors at about $40.

[tighe]

I haven't tried higher end wines from either country, but in the mid to low-price ranges I find Argentinian wines to be superior. I particularly like Bodega Norton's Malbec and I recently tried a Sangiovese from them that was good, although bearing little resemblence to the Tuscan variety.

[chbarg]

Tighe,

I am not an expert in wines but I would also recommend another winery from Argentina: Catena. They have the low end line Alamos and the Catena line that ranges between $16 and $22. I do like the chardonnay (specially 1999 & 2001) and the Cabernet 1999 (I haven't tried other vintages).

They are my favorite (good price-value ratio).

Cheers !!!

[Andre]

Concha Y Torro's Terrunyo Carmenere is the best Carrmenere I have tasted from Chile. It is a must for much lesser quality of Carmenere is produced by other famous wineries and even CYT itself [ What are we talking about - 5 wineries under this name?].

Recommendations from Argentina:

Suter - cheap and with an excellent value. [5$]

Vina Maipu, Maipu Mendoza. A great value Malbec. [7$]

Luigi Bosca Reserve, Maipu, Mendoza. full bodied dry with massive amounts of chewy tannins. [20$]

The New Argentina:

Passo Doble and the massive Corbec from the Tupungato area [1000m above sea level] by the famous Italian Masi.

The wines are blends of Corvina and Malbec and succesful they are...

[Miguelito]

I would also recommend another winery from Argentina: Catena.

Catena is a large and well-known brand, perhaps somewhat akin to an Argentine version of Mondavi. Nicolas Catena is the progenitor; his daughter has spun off a separate operation called Luca, which makes nice reds.

I find the regular Catena chardonnay (current release is '02) pretty appealing -- relatively light in body, with tropical fruits dominating the palate (which I gather suggests stainless steel fermentation and brief, if any, oaking) -- and serve it as my house chard. I second the comment on the price/value ratio.

I've got a few bottles of Catena Zapata '99 cab layed down in the cellar; those will age for a while. Just had a '99 Luca cab last night and found it nice -- ripe red fruits right up front -- but maybe just a little bit flabby.

[Gaucho]

I guess my signature line says it all about where I stand on the "right" side issue, but on a more serious note, I think that the last 2-3 years have shown that Chile is better at making whites, while Argentina is now clearly ahead in the reds department. Of course, each side of the Andes has an exception to this rule.

The coming of age of the Argentine wine industry is less than 10 years old, before that almost no wine was made according to current tecnological standards, and almost no wine was exported (at least not quality wine, lots of bulk and mass produced grape juice yes). This is in sharp contrast to Chile, where both the government and the private sector have a track record of at least 15+ years in making a market for Chilean wines abroad. Already in 1996 you could find mini bottles of Concha & Toro wine in the minibars of hotels in Hong Kong.

Argentina currently produces a good list of wines of various price ranges that have decent cellaring potential. If one is willing to pay and enter the super-premium range, there are huge wines with decades of drinking potential. Some of the producers making these labels include: Catena Zapata, Achaval Ferrer, Clos de los Siete, Terrazas de los Andes, and Federico Benegas Lynch - just to name a few.

In very recent history, some of the best known "gurus" of the industry have taken notice and focused on Argentina. Apart from Robert Parker´s comments on Malbec and its potential, one of the best known flying winemakers (Michel Rolland) has been focusing a relevant portion of his investments in Argentina - not only in Mendoza but also in the northern Terroir of Salta. Sure, one can discuss about the commercial interests behind many of these opinions, but in my view its beyond discussion that Mendoza is now recognized as a region that can and does produce world class wines.

important note: In the interest of full disclosure, I am a Buenos Aires based wine merchant.