TDG: Wine Camp: ABC, Easy as 123?

Fat Guy · May 1, 2003

Are you sitting down? Craig Camp likes Chardonnay.

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Jason Perlow · May 1, 2003

Good chardonnays. Who'da thunk it. It, like, has a varietal character and everything.

docsconz · May 1, 2003

Craig,

Nice article, and I'm sure that you are right - the best value chardonnays come from Burgundy. California makes some nice Chardonnays that rival the great Burgundies - Kistler comes to mind - but their prices rival them as well. Most of the low-end stuff is oak juice without any discernible character.

maggiethecat · May 2, 2003

Great article, Craig. You and Lady T might actually make me an informed oeno.

In my faraway youth, the only Chardonnays I ever tasted were French Chardonnays. With their memory, I was completely confused to hear Wine Folk diss Chardonnays, and The People Who Ordered Them.

Back to Binny's. I'll take your list.

Thanks.

tommy · May 2, 2003

a few points...

Yet we should remember that the reason chardonnay is so popular in the first place is that it tastes good.

to paraphrase willie gluckstern, and some other experts, if there is "a" reason why chardonnay is so popular (in the US) it's because it's easy to pronounce...and because it's sweet. it doesn't "taste good" unless you like the taste of it. "it" meaning the chardonnays that most are drinking.

Yes chardonnay tastes good and matches well with a broad variety of food.

i've addressed the fact that it's generally accepted by even wine novices that new world chards do not "taste good," i'll also submit that they certainly do not match well with a "broad variety of food." c'mon. yer joshin'.

"i hate chardonnay." i tell people that. i tell servers that when they're suggesting a wine if i happen to ask. however, i love a decent chablis or burgundy. i suppose i just hate overly-oaked wines. hell, even some steely chards from australia, south africa, and certianly NZ are decent enough food wines at 8 or 9 bucks a pop.

they should just change the name. "chardonnay" is generally horrible. i'll drink the juice if it's called something else and if the stuff in the bottle isn't defined by the style, rather than by the character.

Edited May 2, 2003 by tommy (log)

Jason Perlow · May 2, 2003

C'mon tommy don't be so harsh.

Even Willie G. doesnt HATE a well-crafted chardonnay. Hey, the ones aged in stainless with no oak actually taste decent. He's even got a few of them at Nancy's.

tommy · May 2, 2003

"harsh" is subjective. my points are valid. and yes, even i love some steely chards. but that's not what i was saying. :raz:

maggiethecat · May 2, 2003

Maybe your longest post, Tommy, you thread-derailer You! :biggrin:

I sense passion here.

Craig Camp · May 2, 2003

to paraphrase willie gluckstern,

Never paraphase Willie. :blink:

Craig Camp · May 2, 2003

...and because it's sweet. it doesn't "taste good" unless you like the taste of it. "it" meaning the chardonnays that most are drinking.
i've addressed the fact that it's generally accepted by even wine novices that new world chards do not "taste good.
"chardonnay" is generally horrible. i'll drink the juice if it's called something else and if the stuff in the bottle isn't defined by the style, rather than by the character.

Bravo Tommy - just what I wrote.

What I hate is the cookie-cutter, plastic-tasting swill that most companies spew out onto the market and that most people think is what chardonnay tastes like.

tommy · May 2, 2003

to paraphrase willie gluckstern,

Never paraphase Willie.

page 47 of "The Wine Avenger":

"[Chardonnay's] popularity with consumers is based on:

- it's soft, unchallenging texture and consistent sameness of flavor

- its easy availability and wide variety of price points

- its easy-so-pronounce name?"

you're right. he can speak for himself. :raz:

Yes chardonnay tastes good and matches well with a broad variety of food.

*that* is what you wrote. :wink:

we both "hate" the same thing. :biggrin:

Edited May 2, 2003 by tommy (log)

Craig Camp · May 2, 2003

"[Chardonnay's] popularity with consumers is based on:
- it's soft, unchallenging texture and consistent sameness of flavor
- its easy availability and wide variety of price points
- its easy-so-pronounce name?"

Absolutely true. That is why the firm, balanced wines of southern Burgundy are ignored by consumers.

Some firm points:

1. I never met an Australian chardonnay I liked.

2. I tend to avoid California white wines (with the notable exception of Iron Horse).

3. I am an unrepentant acid junkie when it come to white wines - (OK red wine too :blush: )

tommy · May 2, 2003

craig, i think we were separated at birth.

but you still said:

Yes chardonnay tastes good and matches well with a broad variety of food.

and i don't think you were talking about chards from burgundy or NZ. or long island. or the finger lakes for that matter. :biggrin:

i'm not taking issue with your tastes at all. i'm merely pointing out that people *think* this because they haven't had the chance to taste other wines. as you said, so many wine lists all across the US list 8 chards (all from the west coast), maybe a pinot grigio (a crappy one in my experience) and that's about it. a SB might show up, but hell, who can pronounce *that*. chards are the "default" for most consumers, and because of that, most restaurants and bars will stock just that.

i recall a few short years ago, when mrs. tommy would always say that i made my "wine face" whenever i drank wine. i now know why i did: because i was drinking chardonnay from CA and other whites of its ilk, and kinda fruity tannic reds as well. i *still* make that face if i drink those wines (although i vomit when drinking oaky whites). i was happy to find out that there are wines that don't make me put on that face. although those with the bracing acidity, which i do adore, make me put on a puckering face. at least i enjoy *that* face though. :smile:

edit: i appreciate the greater point of your article, which is "don't hate the grape." :smile:

Edited May 2, 2003 by tommy (log)

Craig Camp · May 2, 2003

craig, i think we were separated at birth.
but you still said:
Yes chardonnay tastes good and matches well with a broad variety of food.

Tommy - I have a feeling if we were separated at birth our mother had an extremely long labor. :blink:

My only point about matching chardonnay with food is that when done in a balanced style it really does match a very broad range of dishes. The sweet swill doesn't match well with anything.

tommy · May 2, 2003

My only point about matching chardonnay with food is that when done in a balanced style it really does match an very broad range of dishes. The sweet swill doesn't match well with anything.

ok. so we're clear on that then. i just don't want you to mislead anyone. the last thing we need is some lurker going to Lugers and asking for a nice chardonnay, as it goes so well with food, at least "that's what the guy said on egullet." :blink: :biggrin:

Edited May 2, 2003 by tommy (log)

TrishCT · May 2, 2003

Craig/Tommy:

Have either of you ever tried Joseph Phelps Chardonnay (California/various years...)? I have had the pleasure to sample it a few times...and thought it was very good.

tommy · May 2, 2003

Trish, i must say that i simply do not drink california chardonnays. i know that they're coming around from the oaked syrup that they produced in the 90's, but by and large, they are still all the "same." although, i get out to napa/sonoma about once a year, and i've seen a big changes in some of the wineries' wine making style. whether those "experiments" are hitting the mass market remains to be seen. in time, i would imagine. the tides are clearing turning.

maggie: you should see me when i get drunk. :wacko: fat guy said i worked really hard on this one.

Edited May 2, 2003 by tommy (log)

pariah_kerry · May 2, 2003

maggie: you should see me when i get drunk.

And this one time at wine camp...

Beachfan · May 2, 2003

Craig,
Nice article, and I'm sure that you are right - the best value chardonnays come from Burgundy. California makes some nice Chardonnays that rival the great Burgundies - Kistler comes to mind - but their prices rival them as well. Most of the low-end stuff is oak juice without any discernible character.

I wonder whether Craig agrees on the Kistlers. I want to love them as I have a bunch of them, but the more I drink them, the more I think "wood", not "wine". Last one I had tasted like a liquid tongue depressor.

I had a Littorai last month that seemed more restrained with the wood, and really yummy.

carpet bagger · May 2, 2003

Craig I wonder if you ever tasted Australian Chardonnays, Leeuwin Estate or Bannockburn or Giaconda. They are not Burgundy but they are also not California. In each case they need to be drunk warming up to almost room temperature. I agree with you, I love French white Burgundy the best. Its hard not to.

Craig Camp · May 2, 2003

Craig/Tommy:
Have either of you ever tried Joseph Phelps Chardonnay (California/various years...)? I have had the pleasure to sample it a few times...and thought it was very good.

I have not tasted a Phelps Chardonnay in many years. Sorry.

Craig Camp · May 2, 2003

Craig I wonder if you ever tasted Australian Chardonnays, Leeuwin Estate or Bannockburn or Giaconda. They are not Burgundy but they are also not California. In each case they need to be drunk warming up to almost room temperature. I agree with you, I love French white Burgundy the best. Its hard not to.

I have tasted Leeuwin and Bannokburn but not Giaconada. They were both a little over the top on the tropical side of things for me. My biggest complaint about Australian chardonnay is that the acidity always tastes like it is manipulated in some way. You have these ultra-fruity wines and then in the finish is this zing of lemon/lime that just doesn't seem to fit naturally.

Craig Camp · May 2, 2003

Craig,
Nice article, and I'm sure that you are right - the best value chardonnays come from Burgundy. California makes some nice Chardonnays that rival the great Burgundies - Kistler comes to mind - but their prices rival them as well. Most of the low-end stuff is oak juice without any discernible character.
I wonder whether Craig agrees on the Kistlers. I want to love them as I have a bunch of them, but the more I drink them, the more I think "wood", not "wine". Last one I had tasted like a liquid tongue depressor.
I had a Littorai last month that seemed more restrained with the wood, and really yummy.

Wines like Kistler are interesting intellectual experiences, but not very good culinary ones. They are great fun to taste, analyze and debate with friends. However, what the heck to you eat with them? These huge, high oak, high extract, high alcohol chardonnay wines just don't taste good with food.

The only California chardonnay I have successfully aged is Kalin.

mamster · May 2, 2003

Craig, the extent to which our wine palates coincide is amazing. This article rocked.

There's a place in Seattle that does (or did last time I was there) half-price bottles of wine on Monday nights. Their house wine is a very nice Macon-Villages that never got anywhere near a handful of wood chips, and it was $11.50. A serious wine bargain.

KatieLoeb · May 2, 2003

Pepi makes a California Chardonnay that is (oh my GAWD :shock: ) COMPLETELY UNOAKED!!! All done in stainless steel, and shockingly, tastes like what Chardonnay FRUIT tastes like, not what THE INSIDE OF A BARREL OR A BUNCH OF OAK CHIPS taste like. :cool:

I like the liquid tongue depressor comparison. Pretty much sums it up for me... :biggrin:

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