Off the Menu at 15 Restaurants

[Steve Plotnicki]

Martin - It is wrong for you to ascribe motives that ultimately criticize those who partake in this custom. In fact, I can only conclude based on your need to make personal comments, by calling or implying that people are egotistical, pretentious etc., that you do not share the same desire we share. Which is simply to eat well. All we want to do is to get the best possible meal. And if you were as interested in fine dining as we are, you could never say any of that because you would then be talking abut yourself. So if you want to call me anything, call me a glutton. You can even call me a pig. But don't dare say that the request is related to my psyche. It's related to my stomach.

The reason one feels comfortable asking a restaurant to provide this service is because a restaurant is a service establishment. And by asking for something off-menu, or to be prepared especially for you, all you are doing is requesting a certain level of service that might not be apparant on the face of the menu. Some establishments are prepared to go that few extra yards, some aren't. I do agree with you that whether a restaurant will do it or not is a function of how the kitchen, and their administrative system that tracks orders is set up. But if we follow your reasoning as to why people shouldn't ask for it, it assumes that each and every service that an establishment can offer is printed on the menu. Why do you assume that? And what is wrong with my assuming otherwise? History shows that at a certain level of establishment, more often then not, they offer a level of service that is not printed on the menu.

It only takes but one small, and exceptionally delicious story of a dish, to make the point that not only is there nothing wrong with asking for off-menu items, it is in the diner's benefit to do so. In September 1994, six of us were dining at La Palme d'Or in Cannes to celebrate my wife's birthday. We were trying to parse together a tasting menu of about 5 courses for the table. The women at the table were happy with a main course that was printed on the menu, but the men couldn't find anything they wanted to eat. Back in those days, Jacques Cattenosi (sp?) was the Maitre' d there (he was so fabulous but left in about 1996 to run the Ritz London dining room. I wonder if he is still there) and he was taking our order and when he got to the main course, I explained that we were having trouble with the menu. So he thought about it for a moment, and about ten seconds later he said, I can offer you some fresh veal filets with some black summer truffle in a sauce flavored with the truffles. Bingo. We'll take three of those. Well to this day we speak of that dish as one of the great dishes we ever ate in a high end restaurant. And who knows why Veal Filet, or summer truffles, wasn't listed on the menu? Maybe it was for the staff dinner, maybe for the next days menu or specials, maybe the chef was going to serve it at his Tante Paulette's Anniversaire? It doesn't make a difference. We only wanted to eat something delicious. We didn't want to prove we were high roller Americans dropping their big wad on the Croisette.

[Wilfrid]

Interesting, and my first reaction is how artifical the set-up in the original WSJ article was. I mean, these diners didn't have any rationale for ordering off the menu, except to write a story. Setting aside medical conditions or incomprehensible afflictions like vegetarianism, I find it very hard to understand why someone would order off the menu at a restaurant unless they had taken in at least a couple of meals at the place already. Advice often given on eGullet, is that on a first visit to a noted restaurant it makes sense to sample the best-known ("signature") dishes. Subsequently one might eat a tasting menu devised by the kitchen. What does it say about a diner if they show up at a restaurant for the first time, and ask for something not on the carte? They don't know how to choose a restaurant which serves cuisine they enjoy? They don't know how to order from a menu? They need to show off?

Once one develops a little familiarity with what makes a restaurant tick, then sure - for some restaurants, anyway - it might make sense to open a dialogue with the appropriate members of staff about getting "the best possible meal", whether it's on the menu or not. I have eaten at literally hundreds of restaurants in New York over the past ten years, but there are only a handful where ordering off the menu really makes sense to me. Incidentally, Babbo's not one of them, but that doesn't mean to say the staff should not be able to understand and respond to such a request.

[Bond Girl]

I agree with Wilfrid, I really don't see the point of ordering off the menu unless there is some sort of medical or dietary restrictions. I'm allergic to red meat and hate birds with a passion, so I might make a request once in a while like 'hold the chicken in that" or 'can you take out the bacon' etc. Usually, I just head for the items on the menu that I can have. Some restaurants such as 11 Madison Park might even ask "is there something you don't like ...." when ordering the tasting menu. Usually, I find that most restaurants are more than willing to accommodate when you are reasonable and I dined at more than a fair share of restaurants in New York. It's one thing to ask for no bacon on your eggs, it's another to try ordering gumbo in a Japanese restaurant, even if you know the chef there is capable of making the best gumbo in the world. Otherwise, why go to a restaurant when you don't like what's on the menu?

Edited February 17, 2003 by Bond Girl (log)

[Fat Guy]

The menu/non-menu distinction isn't necessarily the axis that differentiates the standard-issue experience from the VIP experience. In some restaurants it is: there are certainly some old-school places where the whole point of being a friend of the house is to get access to a better class of food. That approach isn't nearly so prevalent in modern restaurants, where the kitchens are on the whole much more egalitarian. At a restaurant like Gramercy Tavern, for example, I'd probably peg the following as the serious VIP experience: the chef chooses the best of what's on the menu and the tasting menus and puts together a customized multi-course degustation for your table that takes into account your preferences and ordering history. In many meals at Gramercy Tavern, I've only been served a very few off-menu items, and the few I can remember weren't necessarily the best dishes I had there.

I do think customers who care about food should proactively -- though not obnoxiously -- attempt to differentiate themselves from the 90+% of customers at any given restaurant who don't really give a damn about food. You can only benefit from presenting yourself as someone who is there to eat.

[tommy]

I do think customers who care about food should proactively -- though not obnoxiously -- attempt to differentiate themselves from the 90+% of customers at any given restaurant who don't really give a damn about food. You can only benefit from presenting yourself as someone who is there to eat.

agreed. while pleasing my stomach is high on my priority list, it does fall right below not wanting to compromise others, whether they be front house staff, kitchen staff, or dining companions.

[Varmint]

I've been served boiled peanuts at Gramercy Tavern, which is about as off off menu as you can get.

[Holly Moore]

[Steve Plotnicki]

But this whole notion of compromising others that is being thrown out as a reason to not do it is a red herring. And for the life of me, I do not understand the motivation to articulate it that way. If you ask, and they don't do it, the exchange is over. Nobody has been put out to do anything except answer your question. It's just one of the multitude of questions you might ask where the answer is no, like their not having a particular brand of vodka you would like to drink. How is this any different? And if they do perform the service, people aren't being put out either. So I fail to see the repetitive need to charcterize the request as something the diner is doing that is wrong. It's just a very simple question that asks if the restaurant offers a way to dine that isn't printed on the menu.

When I was in Milan last month and had dinner at Aimo e Nadia, at the end of the meal the sommelier disclosed to us that he had a treasure trove of older vintages of Barolos and Barabarescos that weren't on the list. Gajas going back to the mid 50's etc. And when he went down to the cellar to get them to show them to us because he was proud of their condition, we looked at each other and asked why he didn't tell us that before the meal. That is just one situation where asking would have changed the outcome of our meal.

[Varmint]

Believe you me, Holly, they were nowhere near as good as Abbott's peanuts. These boiled peanuts were canned -- part of a gag Mr. & Mrs. Fat Guy cooked up. We were also served Coffee Crisp candy bars as one of our desserts, along with glasses of milk presented by the sommelier. It was one of the finest vintages of milk I have ever tasted.

[Suzanne F]

The reason one feels comfortable asking a restaurant to provide this service is  because a restaurant is a service establishment. And by asking for something off-menu, or to be prepared especially for you, all you are doing is requesting a certain level of service that might not be apparant on the face of the menu.

Please do not confuse service with servant.

I don't suppose you realize -- or care -- how insulting you are being to restaurants in general: you seem to be saying that one must push them to get a high(er) level of service -- they won't do it otherwise. And you're talking about the sort of place YOU frequent; think what that says about "lesser" venues.

...And who knows why Veal Filet, or summer truffles, wasn't listed on the menu? Maybe it was for the staff dinner, maybe for the next days menu or specials, maybe the chef was going to serve it at his Tante Paulette's Anniversaire? It doesn't make a difference. We only wanted to eat something delicious. We didn't want to prove we were high roller Americans dropping their big wad on the Croisette.

Staff dinner? Unlikely. But they surely were in the house for a reason, as part of a plan. Which you upset because you expected that nothing on the menu would be delicious enough for you. Proving your status as rich, spoiled Americans (not that nationality matters) is EXACTLY what you did.

[Fat Guy]

I'm surprised that so many people feel it's inherently obnoxious to try to get the best out of a restaurant. To me, the only potential obnoxiousness is in the way one presents the request. Can we agree that these are really two different issues?

[Holly Moore]

I'm surprised that so many people feel it's inherently obnoxious to try to get the best out of a restaurant. To me, the only potential obnoxiousness is in the way one presents the request. Can we agree that these are really two different issues?

I go into a fine restaurant expecting to get it's best without the need of any additional prompting or challenging from me. I would expect nothing less from Le Bec-Fin or many of the other restaurants listed in the Journal article. At Le Bec-Fin I would only request something different if there was an item on the menu I shouldn't eat for health reasons.

At lesser restaurants I might request an added ingredient such having my schnitzel Holsteined. But that's giving the restaurant a specific, reasonable request that shouldn't screw up their production all that much.

[Fat Guy]

I go into a fine restaurant expecting to get it's best without the need of any additional prompting or challenging from me.

In my experience this is sometimes the case, and more often not the case. I happen not to think that asking for an off-menu menu is the way to go about getting a restaurant's best. But I do think that proactive, non-obnoxious customer participation often reveals tiers of excellence even at the best places.

[Suzanne F]

Well, I'm surprised that some people think that one must make exceptional demands in order to get get the best out of a restaurait. Yes, of course places, like people, have off-days. But a restaurant that does not at least TRY to do its best all the time, for all its patrons, should not be in business.

[Fat Guy]

Well, I'm surprised that some people think that one must make exceptional demands in order to get get the best out of a restaurait.  Yes, of course places, like people, have off-days.  But a restaurant that does not at least TRY to do its best all the time, for all its patrons, should not be in business.

It's not so much the best in absolute terms as it is the best for a specific customer. Most restaurants, for example, are going to assume certain group preferences in the clientele. But an individual client could have much more specific desires. For example, a restaurant might assume that a seven-course tasting menu at a certain price point will be ideal for most customers. Then a customer might come along and want a 14-course tasting, and might want to triple the budget so as to get additional luxury ingredients in there. The average customer would consider it intrusive even to be offered that option, so a code develops whereby you learn to feel out what a restaurant offers beyond the standard presentation. If done right, without pretense, obnoxiousness, or entitlement, it's win-win.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Suzanne - Two things, most of the better restaurants in the world are more then happy to do this for you. That's the business they think they are in. And I'm glad they think that way because I get to eat better as a result. And I'm glad you aren't running one of those restaurants because we would all eat worse for it. In fact come to think of it, that might be the exact reason you don't run one of those restaurants. The second thing is, all you have done is to apply egalitarianism to the situation. I'm not really interested in that. My dining experience, and capabilities, are not the same as every other diner in the restaurant. I would like a meal that is good enough to satisfy my level of expertise which is not the same as diners who don't do it on a regular basis. And sometimes a restaurant has what will make me happy on it's printed menu and wine list and sometimes it doesn't. Quite often, I find that restaurants are hiding little gems for special customers. Because how would I have ever gotten to taste the magical 1958 Marquis de Riscal Rioja if I didn't stand firm with the sommelier on his giving me the reserve list, which he tried desperately not to give me? Fortunately a wine dealer friend of mine told me about it. This is just one example of why you need to ask. And why asking isn't doing anything wrong.

[tommy]

I'm surprised that so many people feel it's inherently obnoxious to try to get the best out of a restaurant. To me, the only potential obnoxiousness is in the way one presents the request. Can we agree that these are really two different issues?

i haven't seen anyone characterize these requests as "inherently obnoxious."

besides, it's not what you say, but how you say it.

as far as it possibly compromising one of any number of people, look at the situation where the manager pushes the kitchen to grant the request, even though they are in the weeds, only because perhaps the person has ordered an expensive bottle, or because the manager knows he's a good customer. now, i submit, the kitchen, and perhaps the servers are being put out. cleary it's not always as straight forward as "If you ask, and they don't do it, the exchange is over. Nobody has been put out to do anything except answer your question. "

Edited February 17, 2003 by tommy (log)

[Fat Guy]

asking isn't doing anything wrong.

I'm on board with that, although I do acknowledge a point at which asking becomes more akin to harassment. I've seen it too often. But again I think it all gets back to how a customer presents the request. I see nothing inherently wrong with the request. In fact I see it as a good thing if it's done right.

I get the feeling these WSJ reporters didn't have much of a clue about any of this, though.

[tommy]

I get the feeling these WSJ reporters didn't have much of a clue about any of this, though.

it's safe to say that pretty much everyone here has a better understanding, or at least is demonstrating a better understanding, of the issue than the reports in the article did. but then again, they're just trying to sell newspapers.

[Fat Guy]

as far as it possibly compromising one of any number of people, look at the situation where the manager pushes the kitchen to grant the request, even though they are in the weeds, only because perhaps the person has ordered an expensive bottle, or because the manager knows he's a good customer.  now, i submit, the kitchen, and perhaps the servers are being put out.

I'd place that in the "not my damn problem" category. The restaurant needs to know its own capabilities and needs to be the responsible decisionmaking party if granting a request is likely to affect the other customers adversely. This is, by the way, an illustration of the one-incident flaw in the Gramercy Tavern inspection the WSJ performed. There are no comprehensive notes regarding how busy the restaurants were on the nights they were visited. There were some mentions, but not in every case.

[tommy]

I'd place that in the "not my damn problem" category.

to extend the scenario...

you ask the server. she seems confused. you ask her to speak with the kitchen. she does and suggests that it won't be possible tonite. the manager hears of the exchange and asks the kitchen to do what they can.

i dunno. my point is that it's not as simple as just asking and taking no for an answer. the situation, clearly, can be a bit more dynamic. and those who might be prone to entitlement might not pick up on those clues that they are in fact asking too much, and will go on their merry way telling everyone about how the chef at x restaurant is always more than pleased to do anything for the diner, if he or she shows that he or she is discerning.

ediot: speeling.

Edited February 17, 2003 by tommy (log)

[Wilfrid]

Let me catch up. Are some of you - Tommy ? Suzanne? - saying that asking the kitchen to cook off the menu for you is something you should never, ever do (still setting aside medical/dietary issues)?

[Fat Guy]

(still setting aside medical/dietary issues)

Not that the pure version of the argument would or could set those aside . . .

[tommy]

Let me catch up.  Are some of you - Tommy ?  Suzanne? - saying that asking the kitchen to cook off the menu for you is something you should never, ever do (still setting aside medical/dietary issues)?

i'm not saying that at all. if anything, i'm playing devil's advocate. however, the notion that people can sometimes make requests that are obnoxious and stem from entitlement is obviously shared by a few posters. do all diners know what "no" means? i'm guessing that depends.

[Fat Guy]

those who might be prone to entitlement might not pick up on those clues that they are in fact asking too much

No doubt true. A restaurant needs to train its staff to deal with mild cases of entitlement, though. If the place is going to collapse over every selfish customer, it's doomed anyway. I'm more concerned about the extreme badgering form of entitlement. Even old pros are often not well equipped to deal with that.