Fine Wine and Fine Dning

[Coop]

Cabrales' talk of having Opus One at the French Laundry made me ask this question. Does fine wine get in the way of fine food? You can also make the case for fine food tripping up a great bottle. Can we enjoy both at the same meal? I say no.

I enjoy both vices but at different times. If I am having a bottle from my cellar I will enjoy it at home with a simply prepared meal. I recently served a bottle of Chateau Fonsalette Syrah with a simply grilled veal chop. This was a perfect match in my opinion. The veal stood back and let the wine run the show.

On the other hand I have enjoyed meals in fine restaurants with a bottle of Beaujolais or other simple wine and found that it complemented the food making both the food and the wine better.

[GordonCooks]

A fine wine paired with an appropriate dish is a wonderful dining experience. The issue seems to be - can you make the appropriate associations?

You said yourself that a simple Beaujolais is made better by the meal – not if the meal was cote du boeuf I would think.

Edited February 11, 2003 by GordonCooks (log)

[Coop]

Yes in a meal with one bottle per dish the association could be made (cote du bouef and an 85 Vosnee Romanee perhaps), but many diners favour multiple course meals with perhaps one or two wine selections. What then?

The wine and food dinners of the early 20th century gentlemen's clubs seem to have given way to moderation especially in restaurants on the west coast of North America.

In a way you make my argument by suggesting Cote du Bouef which seems to be a simply prepared dish. You could easily pair it with a fine wine. What to do when having more complex dishes like Grilled Ahi with wasabi in a celery and apple broth. And just to make things more complicated some of us say let the chef decide.

[mogsob]

One trip to March in NYC will convince you otherwise. Their individualized tasting menus with wine pairings demonstrate conclusively that a great wine/food pairing makes the meal.

It is true that some so-called great wines like Opus One simply overpower just about any dish eaten with it. But then again, I really don't consider any New World Wines to be great -- they are just too damn big.

By contrast, I would drink a well-aged top bottle of Bordeaux, Barolo, or Burgundy (or even a Mosel Riesling!) without fear that it would overpower the meal.

Maybe its not going to far to say that you may have had some great wine, but just not the right great wine.

[cabrales]

Fine cuisine and fine wine can be mutually complementary, and result in a "greater than the sum of its parts" effect. Note that (1) my wine knowledge is very weak, (2) I prefer French white wine and old Champagnes (and am more familiar with the effects of these on cuisine) and (3) I value cuisine much more than I value wine currently.

An interesting example of complementarity: The Troisgros March 2002 Latour Tasting/Dinner (very rough translations from the French menu), led by F Engerer:

PHASE I. TASTING

3 different Forts de Latour (recent vintages; second wine)

Latour 99, 97, 96, 95, 94, 88, 90, 82.

PHASE II. COCKTAILS (Outside Troisgros cellars)

Various Hors-d'oeuvres, with Bollinger Grand Annee 1990

PHASE III. DINNER

Oysters with raifort, Latour '80

Tartar of bass with caviar, little pieces of celeryroot; tartar of tuna method Siam, all with sesame sauce, Latour 67

Ravioli of lobster with porcini, mint and mango, beef bouillon, Latour 71 magnum

Pigeon and foie gras slightly breaded and with sauce of truffle, Latour 61

Duckling of Challans in thick slices with pear and prune, Latour 55

Sampling of three cheeses (Salers, Gruyere of Savoie, aged Gouda), Latour 85

Chocolate and cherry dessert; another dessert

Dish selections by M Troisgros were not necessarily conventional, for pairing with Latourm, but they worked.

[marcus]

To me, this menu looks like an affectation rather than well selected pairings. Latour 61 which is rich heavy and spicy with a foie gras based dish seems particularly inappropriate and I find that red wine doesn't go with cheese at all. In my view, really great wine doesn't go with complex food and can't be successfully paired. It should only be paired with very simple food like a grilled steak which is ideal. Stepping down a few levels on the wine, as most of the early examples on this thread do, can lead to successful pairings with complex food. It is also not the bigness of the wine that inhibits pairing, but complexity. The extraordinarily complex and characteristic mineral scents of Chateau Margaux is an example.

[cabrales]

marcus -- The pairings seem unusual don't they? Lobster ravioli with the 1971? That's what I thought before I took in the meal (not that I know that much about wine).

[Steve Plotnicki]

But wait a second, this is a Latour tasting. They haven't represented that they have chosen the best wines for the food. Nor vice-versa. People are going to this function to taste the wines. The food is secondary. If you are interested in eating Troisgras's food paired perfectly with wines, go on a different night. The food here is irrelevent other then being a balanced meal. How would Latour do this promotion if they served d'Yqueem with the Foie gras?

[cabrales]

The pigeon and foie gras dish was predominantly pigeon. And Troisgros did try (and succeeded, in my mind, despite the unusual-looking nature of the menu) to present dishes that matched each provided wine.

Edited February 12, 2003 by cabrales (log)

[Steve Plotnicki]

Well of course they did but, the notion that Latour goes with every course of a meal is an odd one to begin with.

[cabrales]

Not if there are the talents of M Troisgros being put to bear on the question.

[Wilfrid]

an affectation...

I find that red wine doesn't go with cheese at all...

Et voila.

[Steve Plotnicki]

I'm sorry but even the magical talents of M. Troisgros can't overcome the limitations of nature and physiology. But then again they don't have to because you're not their to eat. You're there to drink.

[cabrales]

Steve -- There is an argument that those who ate/drink are best positioned to address the appropriateness of the pairings.

[Craig Camp]

But wait a second, this is a Latour tasting. They haven't represented that they have chosen the best wines for the food. Nor vice-versa. People are going to this function to taste the wines. The food is secondary. If you are interested in eating Troisgras's food paired perfectly with wines, go on a different night. The food here is irrelevent other then being a balanced meal. How would Latour do this promotion if they served d'Yqueem with the Foie gras?

I agree with Steve completely. The food at a wine tasting dinner is like the frame on a painting. You go to this event to increase your understanding of Latour not the restaurant. The Chef must do the best he can in a difficult if not impossible food and wine situation.

The worst at this are the Champagne houses that push these all Champagne dinners.

[Steve Plotnicki]

The better argument would be that if these pairings were so compelling on their own, Troisgros wouldn't need Latour to come in a do a promotional dinner, including bringing the wines from their cellar in Bordeaux, to offer them. In fact, I would be extremely surprised to see the sommeliers at Troisgros suggest these pairings on their own outside of the context of a promotional dinner. And in fact, I do not know a single sommelier anywhere who would indeed make those recommendations. So delicious as the dinner might have been, and as good as the pairings were, a promotional dinner is a promotional dinner and they can't get around it. Latour does it to enhance their reputation and in hopes of selling off-vintages to collectors who get to taste them in that setting and among some of the great Latours. And while you can spin it anyway you want, if you speak to anyone who works in the trade (at the producer level,) they will tell you this is exactly why they do it. But I am going to sign off this thread at this point because I made my point in detail. And I don't want it to become like the thread about whether that dinner at Blue Hill was worth it or not. The only objective evidence I can put forth is what usually happens when there isn't a special promotion going on. After that, everyone can have their own likes and dislikes. I'm quite happy to drink '61 Latour anytime and with anything. Whether it goes well with the food or not. And that is because, by itself, it is better and more important, and certainly rarer to come upon then the food is.

Edited February 12, 2003 by Steve Plotnicki (log)

[marcus]

an affectation...

I find that red wine doesn't go with cheese at all...

Et voila.

Wilfrid -- your subtlety transcends my understanding.

[Wilfrid]

I was cheekily implying that your sweeping comment was an affectation. I know the arguments for white wine and cheese, and unquestionably there are some cheeses which will destroy any red wine, but a pairing which has pleased millions for centuries must have something going for it. (Another thread, I suppose...)

[marcus]

I was cheekily implying that your sweeping comment was an affectation.  I know the arguments for white wine and cheese, and unquestionably there are some cheeses which will destroy any red wine, but a pairing which has pleased millions for centuries must have something going for it.  (Another thread, I suppose...)

There are all kinds of popularity measures, McDonalds has sold billions and billions of burgers pleasing millions, if not billions. I don't think that the opinion that red wine and cheese do not go well together is affected, I think that it is quite commonly held today by serious people, and I wonder what your view is on the question.

I actually do not personally make the argument for white wine and cheese, which in my opinion go better together than red and cheese, but ultimately not well enough. I specified the point re red wine without further elaboration, because I consider it to be generally accepted, but didn't want to dismiss the white wine proponents out of hand, where I feel that a real debate is still in progress.

[cabrales]

marcus -- Senderens received considerable criticism a number of years ago by indicating that white wine went well with certain cheeses. He still hasn't figured out what wine to go with a certain cheese (I believe Camembert?).

[Wilfrid]

If we haven't done this before, we should definitely start a separate thread. I am wondering, Marcus, what you do drink with cheese, and I have decided views on the camembert question. Shall we?

[Beachfan]

I specified the point re red wine without further elaboration, because I consider it to be generally accepted

Two key exceptions to that generalization.

1) Me

2) Max MacCalman

Wine and Cheese

*Sorry that I didn't wait for the new thread Cabby)

[cabrales]

Beachfan -- No scintilla of anything relating to apology. Here are some of Senderens' thoughts:

http://www.lucascarton.com/harmonies11.htm

-- "Senderens, who more than two decades ago caused an uproar by proclaiming that white wine should be served with cheese. ... 'Some people are interested in painting, others in literature. Why can't food be analysed in the same way as colours in a painting? The table is an art of living where each element needs to be spelled out,' he said. [My kind of chef]But perfection at times is difficult to come by and Senderens admits to failing to find the perfect marriage of a food and of a wine where camembert from Normandy is concerned. Red wine with that cheese is simply 'revolting' and his only suggestions so far are **calvados, ciders,** 'nothing that is quite right'."

http://iafrica.com/highlife/kitchenlife/fe...ures/172607.htm

-- "'In the early 1970s, I put together a cheese plate and served it with only white wines. I was assassinated by the press! But I persevered, and now white wines with many cheeses are universally accepted.'"

http://www.winespectator.com/Wine/Archives...75,1906,00.html

(a wonderful, but dated, article on French three-stars)

Note I don't particularly like Camembert, so have almost no experience on the pairing of that cheese with wine.

Edited February 12, 2003 by cabrales (log)

[marcus]

I specified the point re red wine without further elaboration, because I consider it to be generally accepted

Two key exceptions to that generalization.

1) Me

2) Max MacCalman

Wine and Cheese

*Sorry that I didn't wait for the new thread Cabby)

Beachfan -- I accept your opinion, but Max has a deeply vested interest and I strongly question his objectivity. In addition, I very much dislike the cheese service at Picholine, but this has already been heavily hashed out on previous threads.

[cabrales]

By the way, why is camembert so difficult to pair?