We're getting quite off the original topic, but since the topic is "Meat Blasphemy" with respect to well-done steak, I suppose someone has to stick up for the orthodox position on what such blasphemy consists in...
5 hours ago, scott123 said:
So you're copping to being the steak police, huh? As long as your body cam doesn't mysteriously malfunction, I think we'll be fine
Seriously, though, if you really want to split this many hairs, okay... let's start splitting
Split away! We split a lot of hairs (and carcasses) at the Academy.
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First of all, you're overlooking an absolutely critical aspect of the protein denaturation equation. Fat. In lean meat, sure, protein molecules will latch on to each other and squeeze the liquid out, but, just like wheat protein molecules have trouble latching onto each other in fatty pastry crust, muscle fibers have issues latching on to each other in fatty meat. Less cross linking = weaker bonds = less water loss. Well marbled steak, when cooked until well done, is still very tender, succulent and juicy.
Nobody is arguing that well-marbled steak isn't perceived as juicier than leaner steak. I'm agnostic on this point, since I don't know whether or not it's true (or whether or not fat literally preserves juiciness rather than simply enhances the perception of juiciness). I don't want to fight you on the meat science on this one, but my understanding of denaturation doesn't depend on fibers grabbing onto one another, but rather proteins within each fiber unfolding. Either way, fat is good. We both agree. Gelatin is also good. We both agree there. Where we seem to disagree is that if juiciness is your goal, cooking your meat to a lower temp is better. Or maybe we both agree about this too, and the discussion is about whether or not well-done meat can ever taste good. But we already both agreed that it can...
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Secondly, how, exactly, did you become the arbiter of 'normal' marbling? Was that part of your training at the academy?
I would think, that, within these walls, when the topic of steak is brought it up, unless cost is specifically mentioned, it's in the context of 'good' steak, the context of well marbled steak. Is well marbled steak hard to find? Absolutely. But just because it's difficult to source doesn't mean that all steak related discussions should only focus on typically inferior supermarket fare.
It was part of my training at the Academy. Given that Prime accounts for about 1-4% of graded US cattle (depending on the sources you consult) and that it's almost unavailable in supermarkets (none of my local markets carry Prime, and I live in a city of more than a quarter of a million people), it definitely doesn't count as "normal" by most plausible conceptions of the term. The Academy agrees. And even low-grade Prime beef doesn't really have *that* much fat in it. Top Prime is a different story, but even that pales in comparison to even lower grades of Wagyu on the BMS and A grading scales. But given that Wagyu is definitely abnormal, and Prime is rarity (and isn't even that fatty), the Academy taught us that top Choice to be in the upper range of "normal". And it should be remembered that American Top Choice, even if it's not all that great, is still much better marbled than most beef in the world, owing to our illustrious feedlots and abundant production of garbage corn-and-soy-based "feed" that has not yet been embraced by Europe or Australia.
The Academy considers cooking top Choice (or below) steaks to a well-done temp barbarous. You accuse us of being Nazis. Yet you accuse Choice beef of being garbage. I suppose we all have our own bigotries.
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Third, the ribeye cap that I linked to wasn't Wagyu.
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Just about all ribeye caps have that level of marbling, even in choice meat. In your typical ribeye, the cap will only be a small fraction of the entire steak. I'm not presenting ribeye cap as being typical or in the slightest bit common. I'm only using it as an example to show how incredibly delicious well done extremely well marbled steak can be. Once someone has tasted well done cap, any stigma they might attach to well done well marbled steak will be obliterated, as it was for me.
I like ribeye cap as much as the next person. In fact, it's my favorite piece of meat on a cow (and I love cow-meat). I'd like to point out that it's not a paradigmatic cut to be served as a steak. I've had it well-done, and it can be delicious. But my personal preference is to cook it sous vide and finish it by deep-frying it in tallow.
QuoteFourth, this isn't about my own personal taste. Cook a ribeye cap, any ribeye cap, well done, and you will be hard pressed to find anyone that doesn't do backflips after tasting it. When you move towards the leaner end of the spectrum, towards well marbled rather than extremely well marbled, the appeal will be less universal in comparison to medium rare, but it will still have it's adherents. And this group will consist of far more food aficionados than one or two odd ducks. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to see 3 out 10 people prefer well done well marbled meat in a double blind setting.
The issue isn't whether or not there are things that can be cooked well-done and still be delicious. The issue is whether or not most tender steak cuts at most of the better-but-still-not-mail-order level of quality are better cooked well done. And I've yet to see anything to suggest that they are (if juiciness and tenderness are your concern).
QuoteFifth, have you ever pan fried brisket? If it's fatty enough, it fries up beautifully. Does connective tissue/collagen play a part in the burnt end equation? Of course. But I guarantee you that the lion's share of what makes people go so incredibly nuts over burnt ends relates directly to the fact that the ends of brisket tend to be the fattiest.
Only when it's been jaccarded and sliced thin. Mechanical tenderization is key. At any rate, I agree that fat is a big draw on burnt ends. But so is surface area and crust maximization. But we're not talking about steak anymore, so...
QuoteWhen all is said and done, none of this hair splitting is all that relevant. I'm not the one looking down my nose at fellow food lovers. I'm not the one calling anyone names- in seriousness or in jest. To make my case, I don't have to prove that well done steak is always comparable to less cooked steak. It obviously isn't in every instance. All I have to prove is that, depending on the fat content, well done steak can be phenomenal, and that, if the food snobs could actually taste a well done well marbled steak, I'm not saying that they'd prefer it, but they'd see enough value in it to end the derision.
To be fair, I didn't call anyone names. I just said that a certain preference is barbaric. Likewise, you didn't call anyone names. You just said that most people's steaks are garbage. We're both snobs. I don't think that's a bad thing. But whatever, my whole point is that for most cuts of beef served as steak -- not brisket points, not Wagyu ribeye cap (or even Prime ribeye cap) -- it's best to cook them less rather than more if your goal is to retain juiciness. Even if they're fatty. That's the official view at the Steak Police. The more you cook something, the less juice it retains. Dem's the facts.
To reiterate our case: Top Choice or even Prime cuts of tenderloin, ribeye, striploin, or sirloin are juicier and more tender if they're cooked less. And most people prefer juicier and more tender meat. That is all we're saying.
Of course, the Steak Police agree with you that more marbling is better than less -- within limits. (At a certain point, like with high BMS Wagyu, you're not really serving steak anymore, but fat laced with steak). But we're not sure whether or not the perceived juiciness of well-marbled meat at higher levels of doneness is due to fat's ability to preserve juices or due to fat's mouth-coating ability to enhance perceived juiciness, even at diminished moisture levels (as is the case in falling-apart chuck roast).
But we digress...
We agree again that none of this really matters to the debate at hand.
