Sourdough Bread Troubleshooting (Part 2)

[FjornF]

Does anyone have knowledge (scientific or even better anecdotal) about how starters get, maintain and change their characteristics. I have encountered people who think that old starters are robust enough to maintain their microbial profile over time, and other people who think the starter eventually takes on a profile that is defined by the environment (namely the flour and location).

I recently grew 3 starters, started with rye, white, and semolina flour respectively. After they were established I started feeding them all white flour. The Rye and White starters were indistinguisable, while the Semonlina starter had a distinct sourness and a somewhat weaker rise.

One day I let my White starter feed in the oven. I accidentally let it get to about 110*F. I took it out and resuscitated it over the next 24 hours. However since then it has produced bread that tastes very flat (as if it were over proofed), and while it produces big holes, the crumb is very dense overall. What might have changed when it cooked? These experiences have really illuminated just how little I know about sourdough.

Does anyone have experience with starters changing profile over time? Has anyone had success "breeding" starters?

[hansjoakim]

This is a very interesting question, and one that I have wondered many times myself, namely how the characteristics of a sourdough culture change over time. There is an excellent, albeit slightly longwinded, thread about sourdough baking here at eGullet (click here for that). Then there's also the informative sourdough FAQ (click here for that).

I'm not sure if there is a definitive answer to the question, but I have read about a specific German rye sourdough in which the microflora has been stable for several decades. As any living organism, the culture will adapt to its environment (i.e. your feeding schedule and the pH level in the culture, temperature, flour etc.). If you e.g. increase your level of inoculation, or let more time pass between successive feedings, you're likely to lower the pH level of the culture, and that will favour strains of lactobacilli that better handle acidic conditions. So if you change the environment of the culture (by feeding or ambient temperature for instance) I would say you're likely to shift or alter the microflora of the sourdough.

Based on the observation that the specific German rye sourdough has been stable for so long, I would infer that as long as the culture is healthy and fed according to a strict schedule, changes in flour, water, air etc. is less likely to affect the makeup of your particular culture. The established culture will always have the upper hand during feedings, since it is present in much higher densities than any foreign strains and microorganisms that you introduce whenever you feed your culture. At least that's my reasoning. Actually, I think there is something to the claim that commercially available starters can keep their characteristics for a long time. As long as you stick to the feeding schedule that come with the starter, I don't see why the dominating microflora should change over time. Survival of the fittest, right?

I keep a firm white starter, but I've also experimented with various homemade rye starters to see if there's any significant "tang" or difference in regards to flavour. To be honest, I can't tell any difference. I've never experimented with a semolina starter (I'm not very fond of durum wheat in the first place).

Edited January 22, 2010 by hansjoakim (log)

[Shaun Ginsbourg]

My experience was that after being dissatisfied with the results I got using a sourdough starter I had "caught" and grown at home (in Melbourne Australia), I mail ordered what was claimed to be the famous San Fransisco culture from the US.

I was skeptical about the few flakes that arrived in an envelope, but after faithfully following the instructions I baked successive loaves of wonderful bread.

However over the space of a week or two the quality of the bread seemed to deteriorate and became indistinguishable from the bread my home made starter produced. My theory - unsupported by any expertise on the topic - was that the indigenous yeasts took over my lactobacillus sanfranciscensis starter.

[slkinsey]

A lot of this has to do with the way the culture is fed. Most people, unfortunately, feed their starters in the worst possible way: by "low dilution." To explain: The optimum conditions for the growth of sourdough microflora is when the amount of "old starter" is equal to, or less than 20%. This means, for example, that if you have 10 grams or 1 tablespoon of "old starter" you should feed that with 80 grams or 4 tablespoons (or more) of "new food." Most people do exactly the opposite -- they hold back 50 grams or a quarter cup (or more) of "old starter" and feed with 50 grams or a quarter cup (or less) of "new food." This leads to poor vitality and health of the sourdough microflora and creates conditions that make it highly likely that the original culture microorganisms will be replaced by other microorganisms that are better suited to the low dilution environment. Most any culture that is refreshed with 50% or less of "new food" at each feeding will not be able to sustain a population of L. sanfranciscensis[/i[, and will be taken over by a more low-pH-tolerant strain -- which of course will result in a change in the fermentation characteristics of the culture.

[bethesdabakers]

I’m only really interested in the practicalities of starters’ i.e. do they work. This is my experience:

At present I have two starters, one plain wheat flour and the other rye.

The wheat leaven I started in late 1999 – just a straightforward mix of white bread flour and water. It probably came out of Joe Ortiz Village Baker but it certainly started life as a very stiff dough and I wasn’t happy with it. Some months later I read The Oven Builders and raised the hydration to 100% á la Dan Wing and this seemed to solve my problems. For several years I used the fridge method, storing the starter in the fridge, removing it 24hrs before mixing and refreshing it twice during that time first at a ratio of 1 starter: 2 water: 2 flour, second 1:1:1 (by weight).

Over two years ago I started small scale commercial sourdough baking two days a week from home knocking out anything up to 150 loaves over the two days. Since this time the starter has lived at room temperature without any noticeable change. It’s usually refreshed every 24hrs (12 before baking) but is often neglected. About 200g have been sitting on the counter unrefreshed since Friday (now Sunday a.m.) but I have no doubt that that I can turn this into 6-9K of active leaven when I come to mix on Wednesday evening.

During its life it has been on holiday to France several times, once for as long as two months – seems to like it there (me too).

The rye starter is much older. It came from Andrew Whitley (Village Bakery/Bread Matters) 10 years ago. But he got it from a Russian bakery who were supposed to have been using it for over 100 years. Since I’ve had it it’s experienced the same sort of life as the white starter.

So both starters have been around for some time and have experienced quite big changes in circumstances. I can’t say I have noticed major changes in the way they perform.

People seem to want starters to be shrouded in mystery. But, they are just fermenting mixtures of flour and water, and, if they raise the dough, what more do you want? It would be really good if sourdough stopped being regarded as “difficult” because it’s not. It’s totally straightforward when you have a little confidence. Then, perhaps, a little refinement can be developed.

Mick

[reenicake]

Hi everyone! Haven't been here for awhile, but I am trying to find some information or leads about feeding a sourdough starter non-wheat flour. From what I know this should not be that strange, since the yeast feeds on carbohydrates.

My son and daughter have recently been tested for allergies -- wheat and eggs have come up on the banned list for both. My son is allergic to dairy and casein, nuts and peanuts (aside from fish and shellfish) while my daughter is not. I really like the moistness and keeping qualities that sourdough starters give homemade bread, especially in the absence of eggs (that so many gluten-free breads call for).

I do know that some traditional Chinese/ other Asian cultures' breads are risen with a starter based on rice, but I can't find any constructive info on the 'net.

Thanks for any help!

[gfree sourdough baker]

Hello Reenicake,

I have developed gluten free sourdough recipes around my own food allergies. I have combined old fashioned sourdough techniques with gluten free seed and grain flours and have come up with excellent, delicious breads, muffins and pancakes. They are also free of dairy, eggs, soy, yeast, sweeteners, gums and baking powder. Very suitable for sensitive digestions.

I have posted a free download of the starter recipe plus pancake recipe:

http://www.sanctuary-healing.com/food-recipes.html

This type of baking takes some time to understand and master so it will not be for everyone although if you have some familiarity with sourdough baking it will be easy. My breads are tasty, easy to digest and have an extremely long shelf life because of the sourdough process!

My complete, and continually growing recipe book, Art of Gluten Free Sourdough Baking, is available in pdf and print form on my website, www.food-medicine.com

Good Luck and Eat Well!

Sharon A. Kane

glutenfreesourdough.blogspot.com

[Just loafing]

Can your children have spelt or Kamut? They are ancient grains in the wheat family, but many people who are sensitive to wheat can do one or both of these grains. In flavor, they are both more like rye. I did them both as soudoughs for five years commercially, using a 100 per cent starter of each. The spelt starter came with the business when I bought it, but I started the Kamut myself, by mixing Kamut flour and water and feeding it twice a day while it sat out at room temperature ... took just a few days. My dough was starter, flour, water and a little bit of salt ... no yeast, dairy, sugar or eggs. The breads are dense, but they aren't crumbly. We made muffins using spelt flour ... no special recipes, the only difference was most needed more flour. And we did pizza crusts with both spelt and Kamut. There's a bakery in Vancouver which uses nothing but spelt and makes everything including french pastries. (They do use white spelt however.) Spelt and Kamut flours are expensive ... they are invariably organic, along with there being relatively fewer acres grown. I paid twice as much for organic white and whole-wheat flours as non-O flours and spelt and Kamut were twice as much again. But, I did charge nearly $6 a loaf and sold lots a week.

[reenicake]

Thank you both! (sharon, I sent you a separate email..) Justloafing, I am afraid to try spelt or kamut because of my son's reaction to wheat -- basically he was not allergic (tested at 18 mos), then he was (tested at 3 years), then he wasn't (tested at 5 years), and now he is again (tested last month). Basically his intestines have been barraged and reacted poorly to the reintroduction of wheat -- so much so that it has affected his colon.

I'm afraid that even spelt and kamut (at $4/half pound at my heath food store) are still going to be damaging... I can't afford (literally, cost of the organic kamut plus the cost of the gastroenterologist visits) to take the chance.

[Zacky]

Although I'm sure if I trawled through the hours and days and weeks that have already been spent on forums like this one dealing with precisely this topic, I'd find my answers - it seems that this may be speedier. If anyone knows of any archived chats on the subject then direct me please, but for now, here's the problem:

I have a beast of a starter - wild yeast fermented from strong, organic white flour and tepid water. I've even developed the knack of feeding it 6 hours before making bread to get it really bubbling and my loaves are rising well, proving well and getting a good crust (I'm using a tray with water at the bottom of the oven and also spraying the inside when I put the loaves in).

So far so good, but I'm an awful perfectionist! thing is, my loaves all have a dense crumb, even if well risen and quite 'light'. I've even made a loaf that was, in my opinion, too 'light' - bordering on woolly.

What I'm after are those 'holes' which are surely created through some yeasty action once the bread is in the oven, or perhaps from proving? And along with that, a chewier, more 'pain au levain' type of texture.

It could be that I'm just not kneading enough? My dough is too dry? I've tried using different ratios of flours, such as more spelt or wholemeal along with the strong white, but while the loaves may be denser, they're still a fine, dense crumb that isn't chewy enough.

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

[jackal10]

Need more information about what recipe/formula you are using, and your method (machine mixing or stretch and fold)

Texture is very sensitive to the amount of water.

For an open dough you need about 70% hydration (total water/total flour) where total includes the flour and water from the starter/sponge.

Wholemeal will always give a dnser crumb and not support large gas cells, as the bran pierces the cell wall.

You might also try a weaker flour like AP.

NOt all spelt flours are created equal. Brown spelt flour has bran in it - make sure you use white, and of breadmaking quality.

If you are using spelt a pinch of vitamin C will help

Finally are you over-proving? My sourdough, unless retarded takes 4 hours fom mixing to baking at warm room temperature

[paul o' vendange]

My best off the cuff guess would go to hydration, and a good, continued stretch and fold during bulk fermentation. I use KA bread flour, also have a rocking starter (typically fed once a week, then the night before, given a 12 hour head start, and in the morning the poolish is begun). 4 hour poolish ferment, 5 hour bulk ferment with stretch and fold every hour, 12-18 hour retardation, 1 1/2 hr. tempering and final proofing. By my calculations, I am up to low 80's hydration (83%), and do get a very open crumb. Oh, the main dough has about 9% rye flour, and the starter has a variable feed of anywhere from 50% KA white whole wheat to 100% KA bread flour.

Haven't taken pics in a long time, but these are some older boules:

I have always been relatively pleased with the texture (chewy, resilient, crackling crust), though, as these show, these earlier crumbs were pretty variably open (the pictured loaves also represent about a 70% hydration, whereas I'm currently into the low 80's, as mentioned....my bread has just gone more and more open over time).

After screwing up my back, I've returned to baking, a first love as a kid...so take everything I've said with a spectacular grain of salt, since if I have been cooking a long time, I feel like a neophyte again when it comes to baking. But I'd shoot for a really wet dough, a decently proteinaceous flour to aid the gluten development sought by the mixing and folding techniques, and a long fermentation/retardation.

Edited October 11, 2010 by paul o' vendange (log)

[Zacky]

Good advice guys. I guess I'd had a sneaking suspicion in the back of my mind that after trying a very hydrated dough initially and it having failed to rise - I'd obtained the shape of loaf I wanted by making a less hydrated dough. Therein lies the problem. I need to use more water, more stretch and fold, more rising and proving time, and maybe let it prove twice. Back to the drawing board.

As for recipes, I HAD been using one from Bertinet's book 'Crust' but I abandoned it and have been kind of winging it - which felt good as bread making is such an organic process; influenced by so many environmental factors. His recipe IS for a very wet dough. The problem I had with it was that after I'd kneaded it, it rose, but then after 'knocking back' it didn't rise as much and I had awful problems getting it into the oven. Each time it just flopped down and became a rubbery disc.

BTW Paul - great pics and that's exactly what I'm after - could you share the recipe and technique in more detail?

Edited October 11, 2010 by Zacky (log)

[paul o' vendange]

Zacky, sure, and thanks for the kind comment - but so much of the credit goes to our very own sourdough clinic, for so much of this. If you haven't come across this, I found it a fantastic resource:

EG Sourdough Clinic

One key thing I learned from the thread is the value of not knocking back the dough during bulk fermentation. The stretching of both glutens and entrapped bubbles was very interesting, to me, and an entirely new technique from all I remembered as a kid. If anything - and I know this is debated - I tend to try for entrapping additional air when folding over - I stretch and then "fwap" the dough a bit, to create a pocket of air, if possible, at each fold. Could be my being a former brewer...with aerobic phase of yeast being the generative phase, before going into anaerobic fermentation. I like a lot of growth in yeast, as opposed to dosing heavier at the start, because it's in growth/yeast budding and daughter cells that so much of the flavor by-products are kicked into the mix. Sorry if this is redundant information.

Anyway, once a week I take a couple of tbsp of my starter, and add enough flour and water to make for a fairly thick, renewed starter (thin for a first feeding, but I toss a final amount of flour and refrigerate whenever I feel the starter is renewed appropriately..the thickness makes it "tough" for yeast, and slows metabolism accordingly...just a hunch, to keep the starter churning slow but steady until my weekly bake). I will repeat this process, if necessary (discarding all but a couple of tbsp., with a small reserve in case my "new" starter gets accidentally killed, toasted, etc.), if I have for whatever reason let the starter autolyze by staying dormant on depleted nutrients too long. To be honest, though, even when gone unfed for 3 weeks, and I detect a strong whiff of acetone and other staling compounds, I still get a renewed starter back pretty easily.

Anyway, I'd encourage you to check out the above thread, if you haven't. I deviate very little from that - the only thing I did do differently is a 1 1/2 hour temper and final proofing, whereas Jack (Jackal10) gets fantastic bread by just dropping in his (I'm salivating) brick oven directly from the cooler. When I do that.....lol...I get what my wife affectionately calls "boob bread." For obvious reasons:

(Ahem...on the right, compared to the left).

Outside of that, my home oven has brick tiles down on the wire rack, I pull the bread for 1/2 hour, turn the oven to 500F, allow to preheat for 1 hour; bread then gets 1 1/2 hour total final proofing. When ready, I fill a wine bottle with about 1c of hot water - I previously heat the bottle so the water doesn't cool - stroke the tiles with a decent slathering of hot water via kitchen towel; drop the levain on a cardboard - yep, have never gotten around to getting a wooden one - peel, slash, drop in the oven and dump the water onto my now-fried iron crepe pan on a tile on the bottom. Drop immediately to 400, and pretty consistently go to 50 minutes, turning it with 15 minutes to go very quickly, as our apartment oven is crap and this aids an even crust browning.

amount particulars:

poolish: 2 tbsp starter, 1/2c KA bread flour, 3/4c water.

dough: the above, added in toto to 22.5oz KA bread flour, 2.25oz rye, and 13 oz. water. My back is fried, so I am limited in my ability to knead and use a processor for a 25-30s mix, only. Per the thread, rest 1/2 hour, then add 1 1/2tbsp salt, re-mix an additional 25-30 seconds, avoiding warming both times. Toss into oiled bowl, every hour, stretch and "fwap" fold for 5 hours. Drop into floured banneton - mine is some straight canvas lining a wicker basket from a dollar store - retard for 12-18 hours, temper and proceed as above.

I do want to stress I'm no baker, though it was my earliest cooking love (we're talking 8-9 years old...a, uh, fairly long time ago), so tap the expertise of Jackal's thread, and others, over yours truly's paltry contributions. I also love The Fresh Loaf - an entire sub-forum on sourdough and starter:

The Fresh Loaf - Sourdough

Have fun!

Paul

Edited October 11, 2010 by paul o' vendange (log)

[Zacky]

Paul, you've been MOST helpful! I will put this into practice and promise to post a picture of my success. Thanks a lot. Zac

[paul o' vendange]

Zac, glad whatever I could offer was a help - I really do want to thank Jackal here (and the folks over at the Fresh Loaf) for his tremendous thread, really started me on a love of inquiry I haven't had in decades.

Here's to your enjoyment!

Paul

[Zacky]

Success! I've cracked it! Thanks again for your help and the link to the eg sourdough clinic. That reaaaally helped me a lot. I realised I was actually using a biga, rather than a poolish and had been knocking my dough back - so losing all those precious bubbles. This loaf represents my first real success. I stuck with a thicker biga starter (400g) and added some water and 400g strong white bread flour (we don't have the same brands as you guys over there - KA etc. Here it's just 'strong' or not). I went for really hydrated dough. Man, it was like bubble gum by the time I stopped kneading it - popping and super elastic. That's when I knew I had something good. Then after folding, I let it rise ever so slightly before stopping the fermentation in the fridge and allowing it to firm up. I also invested in some fire bricks for the oven shelf and that helped a lot too. Now I've got the open crumb, the chewy bread and the crackling crust.

It's still not quite perfect though - I'm going to try Paul's repeat folding during bulk fermentation next and add some refined white spelt flour for extra flavour, but guys - the smug satisfaction I got from eating this today cannot be matched and it's given me the biggest buzz. My family love it too. Imagine, all this from just flour, water and salt!

Edited October 21, 2010 by Zacky (log)

[paul o' vendange]

That's awesome, Zacky, congrats! Looks wonderful - really chewy, yes?

I found the hours of bulk ferment (with hourly folds - a gentle stretch then fold, two directions, like a puff pastry foldover), coupled with the high hydration, really oxygenates the yeast and so by the anaerobic, fermentative phase it seems the ferment truly is rocking. The only drawback for me is in not getting the prettiest grigne - but I think that might be the tradeoff with a wet dough...just can't hold the "lip" of the slashing, to get that classic toothed edge (I think the top set of photos show it pretty well - not really "ugly" hashmarks, just not that distinctive, cliff's edge lip, if I'm explaining it well enough).

Anyway, glad you're getting what you're looking for. Many happy loaves!

Paul

[piracer]

So i tried making this Laura Hart's sourdough recipe which involves making a starter dough with a 1:1 ratio of 'strong' plain flour and water. Im not sure what she meant by strong so i just used half and half of bread flour and AP. Now i basically messed some part up involving me putting the starter inside the oven set onto warm and it warping the plastic container i placed it in accidentally (stupid i know, i didnt even need to put it inside the oven i dont know why i did that), so i tried scooping out what i could but now the ratio of flour to water had been messed up. I tried adjusting it by feeding it with another 1:1 ratio of flour and water and waited to see what would happen.

Anyway i carried on with the recipe but in half and forgot to half the amount of salt put in also. The dough i felt didn't really rise during the supposedly rising process but i carried on and also did the whole kneading thing. OK so i FEEL like i might have overworked my dough (i just kept on kneading it every now and then hoping something would happen)and its been sitting there for the last 24 hrs or so.

I decided to cut a chunk off to make a mini-roll of sort, baking it at the same temp (less time) and the results was what i was expecting: heavy tough bread. It had some holes in it so im guessing part of it did rise but so im wondering whether:

1.) Did i over work it?

2.) My amount of flour + water to starter was way off (not enough starter)

3.) too much salt (but i think thats for flavor)

Ideas? Also anyone have any suggestions on what to do with over worked sour dough? I tried kneading it down to make a sorta pizza thing but again, its just tough dough which didnt do to well to rolling out thin. If not i was thinking just bake it off and turn it into bread crumbs

[Lisa Shock]

Sounds like you killed the yeast with too much heat in the oven or through some other incident with the starter. Or, your rising area is super-cold.

It's really hard to overknead dough by hand to the point where a long relax won't mend the situation. I really think there's a problem with the yeast.

[Broken English]

I've baked a bit of sourdough in the on-site bakery of the restaurant I used to work in.

I find that slowing the proving process by doing it all in the fridge after each stage (dough, then the individual loaves helps get a lighter texture with more air bubbles, and the process of folding the dough is also critical to the lightness.

My preferred sourdough recipe now doesn't use an ongoing starter that needs to be fed, it just gets made the day before and sits in the fridge, then added to the main dough, which then goes back into the fridge,before being folded, portioned, then folded and shaped again, before going back to the fridge. The longer it stays in the fridge between each stage the better for flavour and texture in my view, though one day is usually the most practical (and even then it turns the making process into a four day thing).

As for the original question, yes the dough may be overworked. If it feels firm (at least the recipes I've used, then it's not going to be much good (I've always worked with a soft, wet dough which is firmed and dried by the folding and shaping process. But recipes vary greatly, and I'm by no means an experienced baker, so it could be fine, you can only try it out.

Good luck with it.

[350degrees]

several factors:

i think you killed it by putting it in that oven. if it's hot enough to warp plastic, it seems like it's too hot for the starter to do it's magic.

if that's not it, then you might have overproofed with the 24 hours. i'm not familiar with the recipe, but 24 hours in singaporean weather seems like it might make the little guys reproduce too fast. if you find that you overproofed the dough, it should go immediately into the oven, letting it sit out won't help any, and just extends the lifecycle of the starter.

or, maybe you didn't have enough starter as you mentioned at the beginning.

and i think the "strong" flour refers to a high gluten flour. like a bread flour, or a winter wheat.

Edited October 11, 2011 by 350degrees (log)

[Isabelle Prescott]

How many days did you let the starter sit before trying to use it to make bread? Did it get bubbly and did you feed it regularly before trying to use a portion of it to make your dough? If you put the starter an the oven that was hot enough to melt plastic it almost certainly killed any chance of it rising.

I've been baking sourdough bread for many years. Getting the starter too hot will kill it, just at getting yeast too hot will kill it. I've never been able to recover a dough that won't rise properly for whatever reason and I've tried mightly. It will stay like a brick when you bake it even after 3 or 4 days of trying to get it to rise. Best thing is to throw it out and begin anew.

Don't be discouraged. Once you've made a successful loaf of sourdough, you won't believe how easy it is.

Good luck.

[350degrees]

Don't be discouraged. Once you've made a successful loaf of sourdough, you won't believe how easy it is.

and delicious!

[piracer]

Thanks for the comments so far!

So i'm actually not in singapore (status needs an update) but am in eastern Washington State. Its getting cold so its not the heat but i guess all the other comments are right - heat killed the yeast. The thing is that before i made the dough the starter itself had bubbles and smelled sour which made me think it was ok. The starter was also sitting out for about 4 days. But it looks like i need to start over.

And not put plastic in the oven

But no suggestions for what to do with the dough?