When is it permissible to not tip?

[Jenni]

I've never eaten in America (haven't even been there!) but honestly I think I would have a real problem. I reduce tip or even don't tip at all if service is bad, and also I would feel really uncomfortable supporting such a horrible way of paying workers. I really do not know how I would deal with tipping in the US.

[Mjx]

I've never eaten in America (haven't even been there!) but honestly I think I would have a real problem. I reduce tip or even don't tip at all if service is bad, and also I would feel really uncomfortable supporting such a horrible way of paying workers. I really do not know how I would deal with tipping in the US.

It's difficult, the whole tipping thing in the US. You'd probably find some way of finding a balance between conscience and indignation. You probably wouldn't stop feeling troubled (at least, in the 15 years of my more-or-less adult life spent in back in NYC, I didn't; then again, I budgeted a flat $10 week for the homeless, even when I didn't have enough to pay $75/week SRO rent, so I'm probably a complete sucker).

And, of course, this brings us back to the question of, 'What constitutes bad service?'

[Big Joe the Pro]

And when I went to the hotel nightclub at my hotel in Mexico, the owner (who was serving me) went out of his way to say, as he handed me the bill, "the tip is not included."

That pisses me off when they do that. Sometimes I pony up, sometimes not.

I'll have to ask my Chinese friends and colleagues about tipping. They don't seem adverse to it like the Japanese do. I mean, they don't normally do it here but they realize that it's expected abroad.

I just hope that my countrymen (in the US) can recognize and understand the differences between Chinese and Japanese (and that Chinese tip fairly, they have to keep up their end of the bargain!). The Japanese I've known have all been so condemning of the horrible service they receive when in the States. What do they expect when they don't tip?!?

Japanese seem so demanding as well. A Japanese woman was telling me about some minor screw up by the staff in a hotel in Southern China. She wanted a written apology from the manager? Give me a break...

Edited October 20, 2011 by Big Joe the Pro (log)

[ScoopKW]

I've never eaten in America (haven't even been there!) but honestly I think I would have a real problem. I reduce tip or even don't tip at all if service is bad, and also I would feel really uncomfortable supporting such a horrible way of paying workers. I really do not know how I would deal with tipping in the US.

It's simple really -- if problems are the result of the kitchen or bar, and not the server, you tip the full percentage. For me, that's 20%, sometimes more.

If the server is doing his or her best, but mistakes happen, knock off a little if you want. I don't.

The the server gives you attitude, ignores you, or otherwise makes your dining experience less enjoyable, ask for a manager and then either don't tip at all, or leave a small amount.

Many times, the mistakes aren't your server's fault. Your "dressing on the side" salad was picked up and brought to the wrong table by a different server; and now everyone waits while a two new salads are prepared. This happens ALL THE TIME, EVERY DAY around here. I know who the biggest offenders are, and I'll stop it if I see a server pickup up the wrong plate. But my eyes are usually on what I'm doing, not the pick up window.

[KatieLoeb]

I've never eaten in America (haven't even been there!) but honestly I think I would have a real problem. I reduce tip or even don't tip at all if service is bad, and also I would feel really uncomfortable supporting such a horrible way of paying workers. I really do not know how I would deal with tipping in the US.

"When in Rome....."

This is my point. Foreign visitors come here and because they think the system sucks, so they don't tip in the customary fashion or sometimes at all. The servers and bartenders suffer for this. When I travel I research the local customs before I go so I don't offend anyone or do something inappropriate. This is the same thing. Are you supporting a horrible system? Sure you are. But it's the one that exists and the one that tipped restaurant employees have to function within. There are plenty of things that are not mandatory but are customary, like not speaking too loudly in the theater or not urinating/defecating in public. You can choose to flout the local customs but will be thought an ass for doing so. In this country it's customary to tip between 15-20 percent. Live with it, because we have to.

:climbs off her soapbox:

[Edward J]

Uhh.. Katie?

Jenni hasn't been to the U.S. and considering your post, presumably never will.

For someone who lives 2 hrs from the U.S. border, I've only been to the U.S. once--a pilgramage with the kids to see the duck and the mouse.

If you want to get angry at someone, get angry at the hospitality unions. They garnishee salaries but give nothing in return. They say nothing about tipping or sub-standard minimum wages, say nothing and do nothing about implimenting standards and benchmarks to bring the hospitality industry to earn liveable wages. Hit them where it hurts: Get a bill passed to make it illegal to garnishee salaries. My most turbid, erotic dream features the shop steward standing infront of the staff lunchroom with an empty coffee can, the "Edward's" scratched off, and "Union Dues here" written over, and everyone laughing at him......

[KatieLoeb]

Union?? What's that? Only place that applies where I live is in hotel properties. I'm a member of that grossly underpaid collective of completely disorganized folks...

I wasn't directing my rant at Jenni specifically, and I certainly hope she'll have the opportunity to visit the United States some day. It was a more general rant at those who refuse to think the facts through, even once they're aware of them, and continue to punish myself and my brethren in the well worn shoes simply because they disagree with the way we pay restaurant employees here. I disagree with it too, to some extent, and my tip average is well above 20%. I love my job and I love my customers. I have fun at work. I don't want to get a different job or work in a different industry. But I am forced to literally rely on the kindness of strangers for the bulk of my income. Does that suck? Only if they aren't taking their role in the equation seriously. Otherwise I do just fine...

[Edward J]

No....the only Union members in hospitality unions who make decent money are the ones with seniority. This is why so many people hold on to 2 or even 3 p/t (non union) jobs in order to "service" their union job and hopefully, one day, get an increase. I know, I've hired many and given them full hours.

Look, last month my hot water heater at home crapped out. I call around to find a plumber. Minimum hourly rate is $65/ph, plus truck charge, plus the cost of the heater, plus other materials. All licensed plumbers--from the one guy outifits to the mega ones start at $65. Granted some are higher, but the minimum is $65/hr. I could go cheap and get a non licensed guy to do it, but seeing as it's a major gas appliance in a wood framed building, it wouldn't be prudent.

Key operative word, "licensed"

A benchmark or a standard.

There are no standards in the hospitality industry. This is why employers can pay a thumb-your-nose-at-minimum-wage $2.30/hr.

This is why there are so many culinary schools, with so many curriculums, and so many standards.

This is why there are so many f/t college students working p/t as waiters/esses and lining up to get paid bare minimum.

This is why there are so many restaurants. All you need is money to open up a place, and naturally this is why so many places fail within the first year. The damage a failing business does to this industry and to the customer's perception is bad. And it keeps on happening every day.

In the end, the customer pays for everything. Many tourists and Americans who come to Vancouver and make purchases are frustrated and infuriated with our taxes. So are we, but that's not the issue. Time and time again, we hear "Why can't you put down one price with the taxes included so I know what I have to pay?!!!!!!"

And so it is with tipping........

[pastrygirl]

Question for the Aussies/non-Americans, just out of curiosity. If you live in a country where tipping is not the norm and servers are paid hourly, do you know what that hourly wage is? And how does it compare to what the cooks make, and to other service industries, say retail shop clerk? I realize that what a high end restaurant in Sydney pays is going to differ from a pub in a small town, just curious what range of hourly wage is considered livable where you are.

I have often wondered if the US ever changed our system what hourly wage servers would find acceptable. It seems like the allure of tipping is that some nights you walk with $200 in your pocket, and that makes people hope every night can be like that. And as someone bragged above, if you have a talent for sales, you can do really well.

I'd say in Seattle, if you are single you can live decently on $30k, and pretty comfortably on $40k (not extravagantly, but not struggling and enjoying some disposable income if you manage it right). If servers are willing to work 40 hours a week, that's $15 to $20 an hour. If they expect to make a living wage working 3/4 time (as many do now, at least in higher end restaurants), that's $20 to $27 an hour. If you work for tips now, would you be happier doing your job for $20 an hour, or keep taking your chances on tips?

Edited October 21, 2011 by pastrygirl (log)

[ScoopKW]

Union?? What's that? Only place that applies where I live is in hotel properties. I'm a member of that grossly underpaid collective of completely disorganized folks...

I wasn't directing my rant at Jenni specifically, and I certainly hope she'll have the opportunity to visit the United States some day. It was a more general rant at those who refuse to think the facts through, even once they're aware of them, and continue to punish myself and my brethren in the well worn shoes simply because they disagree with the way we pay restaurant employees here. I disagree with it too, to some extent, and my tip average is well above 20%. I love my job and I love my customers. I have fun at work. I don't want to get a different job or work in a different industry. But I am forced to literally rely on the kindness of strangers for the bulk of my income. Does that suck? Only if they aren't taking their role in the equation seriously. Otherwise I do just fine...

And what really sticks in my craw about this is, these same people living outside the US, when American tourists visit their country practically DEMAND that we know every obscure custom. If we don't, we're branded "ugly Americans" and treated like lepers. Yet, no problems coming to the States, not tipping at all, and justifying it with, "Well, that's not how we do things in Australia/England/Germany/etc." (I'm not directing this at Jenni, or anyone else. Just an observation about what is expected of me abroad, compared to their expectations of the United States.)

Naturally, a lot of visitors "get" the fact their server makes $2.33 an hour, and tip well. But in my experience, that number is maybe 15 percent. The other 85% don't care, even if they are made aware. In fact, I have read a German guide to Florida that flat out said tourists can save a lot of money on vacation by not tipping. "They won't like it. But they can't do anything about it. If the tip is added to your bill, ask for a manager to remove it. He has to."

[KatieLoeb]

If you work for tips now, would you be happier doing your job for $20 an hour, or keep taking your chances on tips?

This opens a whole 'nother can of worms. If everything was hourly, then servers/bartenders would be taxed on their entire income. They might not like that. Although it's never happened to me because I report my tips as accurately as I'm able, I've known some folks that have been audited and it was a nightmare for them. Every last one of them ended up owing money to either the IRS, the state, the city or some combination thereof. There's also the issue of whether or not an employee is clocked in as "themselves" or as "PM bar" for instance. If there's two or three bartenders sharing one register and all the sales are divided amongst them, then there's no accurate gauge for each individual's sales, and hence their estimated tips for the purpose of taxation. If one bartender leaves early, then the tips are generally pro-rated over the course of the evening, with an hourly amount figured out for the entire crew and divided accordingly. There's no way for that individual to clock out and report their tips accurately because they won't be calculated until the end of the night. There's a lot of variables in this equation, and depending on the system in place at their place of employment, it can be very difficult for an individual to accurately report their tips and that may or may not be to their advantage.

In general, speaking for myself, I'd say I average between $15-28/hour in tips, not counting the minimal hourly wage. The high and low ends of that range are for when it's very slow or very busy. I generally work a seven hour shift (10am-5pm) with actual service of about 5 hours from 11:30am-4:30pm. Time before we open is spent setting up and restocking the bar, time after is spent counting my register, making my drop and doing any bar prep that needs my attention before I leave. Not sure what guaranteed hourly wage would be adequate to cover that. I like leaving with cash every day and not having to wait for a paycheck every two weeks. I have functioned in other industries on a salary and bi-weekly paychecks so I'm perfectly capable of budgeting myself to do that, but I'm rather accustomed to things as they are now, knowing what times of the month I need to deposit more cash to cover the bills that are due that week, etc. I'm fortunate to have an employer that pays for 75% of my health insurance since I'm a full time employee that has been there over one year. I pay the other 25% monthly myself. This is a rarity in my industry unless one is a member of management.

If you live in a country where tipping is not the norm and servers are paid hourly, do you know what that hourly wage is? And how does it compare to what the cooks make, and to other service industries, say retail shop clerk?

I'd be very curious to get the answer to this question as well. I wonder what my colleagues in other countries are making and what their tip averages might be. And I know the tax structures are very different, because they might also have socialized medicine, free or low cost secondary education etc., so I'm not even going to get into that. But I'd be very interested in seeing how it compares.

[annabelle]

^^^

Funny, that. I got chastised in a different thread for making that same observation.

Edit: This was directed to Scoop's comment

Edited October 22, 2011 by annabelle (log)

[KatieLoeb]

ScoopKW - Amen Brother! You've distilled my argument down to the nuts and bolts. If you KNOW the circumstances then do the right thing if I've done my job well. Simply not agreeing with the system isn't a good enough reason for me to not make my mortgage payment this month. Have an argument with my owner if you feel that strongly about it, but don't punish me. Those ignorant of our system should educate themselves before traveling, just as I show the same courtesy before visiting their country. Those who own that nasty travel guide that tells them specifically NOT to tip to save money should go sit at another bar and not tie up seats at mine, where legitimately paying and tipping customers could be sitting, and I could be earning an honest living.

edited to add:

The fact that that was a German tour book is somehow not exactly surprising to me. But it's just as offensive and punitive regardless of where/who it comes from.

Edited October 22, 2011 by KatieLoeb (log)

[pastrygirl]

If you work for tips now, would you be happier doing your job for $20 an hour, or keep taking your chances on tips?

I'd say I average between $15-28/hour in tips, not counting the minimal hourly wage. The high and low ends of that range are for when it's very slow or very busy. I generally work a seven hour shift (10am-5pm) with actual service of about 5 hours from 11:30am-4:30pm. Time before we open is spent setting up and restocking the bar, time after is spent counting my register, making my drop and doing any bar prep that needs my attention before I leave. Not sure what guaranteed hourly wage would be adequate to cover that. I like leaving with cash every day and not having to wait for a paycheck every two weeks. I have functioned in other industries on a salary and bi-weekly paychecks so I'm perfectly capable of budgeting myself to do that, but I'm rather accustomed to things as they are now, knowing what times of the month I need to deposit more cash to cover the bills that are due that week, etc. I'm fortunate to have an employer that pays for 75% of my health insurance since I'm a full time employee that has been there over one year. I pay the other 25% monthly myself. This is a rarity in my industry unless one is a member of management.

Thanks for being honest about the numbers. So it sounds like despite the occasional jackass or dead night, it's working for you. The American system does seem to keep servers happy enough in mid range to fine dining. Let's extrapolate wildly and say a good server in a tips-as-wages state makes around $23 an hour and a server in a minimum wage state makes $6 more. Sounds pretty good to me, definitely a living wage. Now if you can give the rest of us some suggestions on how not to be taxed on our entire income, we'd be grateful

[KatieLoeb]

Now if you can give the rest of us some suggestions on how not to be taxed on our entire income, we'd be grateful

Well - I was sort of hinting about how folks try to get away with that and it inevitably comes back to bite them. I try to be as accurate as I'm able, while still guess-stimating what my tips will be on the shift or two per week I might not know the exact amount I made until later. I think the IRS presumes that a server makes 15% of their sales in tips on any given shift. But as I mentioned, depending on the system used by their employer, they might not be able to track their sales individually, so that gets to be a whole separate issue. Since my tip average is well above that, I figure if I underestimate a little on the one shift per week I'm not responsible for myself, I'm doing OK and am well withing those guidelines. In fact, I'm probably paying more than most in my boat. But that's OK. I haven't owed anything of any consequence in quite awhile, and am usually fortunate enough to get a refund every year!

Of course there's another answer for not paying taxes on your entire income. Itemize the heck out of everything!!

[Edward J]

I don't get it...

It's O.k. for the server to find some way to get out of paying taxes on what they take home, and laugh at the cook or d/washer who gets taxed on his/her hard earned $12-14/hr pay cheque?

[KatieLoeb]

It's not OK. That's my point. Everyone I've known that has tried the beat the system has failed epically. They might get away with it for a few years, but eventually, when they are audited, they end up owing all kinds of back fees, penalties, etc. that make for a hardship now that is never worth the living high on the hog they did in the past. Plus, once you're on their radar, you get scrutinized more so than everyone else. If the IRS thinks you're a cheat, they will always think you're a cheat and act accordingly. Not worth it in my opinion. Even if I'm minding my P's and Q's I don't want to have to keep the kinds of receipt records that will satisfy any questions that might come back to haunt me later. Too much work and energy and a separate full time job unto itself.

The IRS isn't as stupid as some folks wish to believe. They can do the arithmetic and figure out if a restaurant that is high volume and making 1.5 million dollars a year in revenue and has X number of tipped staff people what a bare minimum average of tips might be. If you say you're only making $50/shift and it's the only W-2 form you're reporting on, you'd better also have expenses for school or something that explains the rest of your time and money spent. It's just not that hard for them to figure out.

Edited October 22, 2011 by KatieLoeb (log)

[ScoopKW]

It's not OK. That's my point. Everyone I've known that has tried the beat the system has failed epically. They might get away with it for a few years, but eventually, when they are audited, they end up owing all kinds of back fees, penalties, etc. that make for a hardship now that is never worth the living high on the hog they did in the past. Plus, once you're on their radar, you get scrutinized more so than everyone else. If the IRS thinks you're a cheat, they will always think you're a cheat and act accordingly. Not worth it in my opinion. Even if I'm minding my P's and Q's I don't want to have to keep the kinds of receipt records that will satisfy any questions that might come back to haunt me later. Too much work and energy and a separate full time job unto itself.

The IRS isn't as stupid as some folks wish to believe. They can do the arithmetic and figure out if a restaurant that is high volume and making 1.5 million dollars a year in revenue and has X number of tipped staff people what a bare minimum average of tips might be. If you say you're only making $50/shift and it's the only W-2 form you're reporting on, you'd better also have expenses for school or something that explains the rest of your time and money spent. It's just not that hard for them to figure out.

And as much as the "we won't tip" crowd wants to latch on to this as an excuse to not tip, it does not justify their tightwadness. Pay up, and whatever the server, bartender etc. does with the money is on them. Not the tipper (or lack thereof).

[Pedroinspain]

Scoop, if you still believe that the tipping issue is only about 'tightwadness' then you have missed out on a lot of detail in this thread. Please allow me to summarise the real issues.

When Europeans/Australians/NZs/South Africans/South Americans/etc talk about tipping they are not referring to the same thing as when folk from the US (and Canada?) use the word. A tip in the US is largely a salary supplement. A tip in those other countries is a voluntary (non-obligatory) token of appreciation for particularly fine service.

The core of the issue is therefore that in the US it is legal (in some states) to pay workers a paltry wage and to shovel the burden over to the consumer for a cost that, in a first-world country, should be borne by the employer. It really is that simple, good folk. And the second thing that sticks in my craw is that it assumes that the employee is going to receive sufficient "tips" to take their income over the federal minimum. But what REALLY annoys me is when US tourist industry leaders (like Daniel J. Hanrahan, President & CEO of Celebrity Cruises) try to con us that their automatic "tipping charge" is in recognition of particularly fine service, when he knows darn well that it is to shovel what should be a line item employment cost onto the Celebrity guests.

So when you visit the US please remember that it is permitted to pay certain tourist industry employees a third-world wage, and if you don't tip at the 15 to 20% level, you will be contributing to some possible but undefined hardship for that employee. I know that it seems like a barbaric practice to most of us, but as one poster commented, "It is what we have, so live with it." So Europeans, when comparing costs to eat out in the US, add 15% to the published price before you even start. And remember to do the same when judging the cost of that cruise that you might be planning.

But the reverse equally applies. When Americans are in Europe etc, they should tip about 5% for average service and about 10% for exemplary attention. But they don't and in places like London and Paris this is really starting to rock the boat. This is one US export that we don't want, although we already have it on cruise ships here in Europe.

Edited October 22, 2011 by Pedroinspain (log)

[KatieLoeb]

Nothing justifies tightwadness, most especially if you're doing it in "protest" or just to save money because you'll never visit that restaurant again. But we digress...

[Jenni]

Btw, I'm not saying that I would not tip servers in America "out of protest". I am saying thank god I cannot see myself being in America in the near future, so I will not be faced with a conundrum where I receive poor service but still feel obligated to tip.

As pedroinspain points out, to many outside America, a tip is something given for good or great service, not something that is just expected because it's how "the system works". Doesn't mean however that they absolutely won't adjust themselves when in America.

[Mjx]

. . . .

And what really sticks in my craw about this is, these same people living outside the US, when American tourists visit their country practically DEMAND that we know every obscure custom. If we don't, we're branded "ugly Americans" and treated like lepers. Yet, no problems coming to the States, not tipping at all, and justifying it with, "Well, that's not how we do things in Australia/England/Germany/etc." (I'm not directing this at Jenni, or anyone else. Just an observation about what is expected of me abroad, compared to their expectations of the United States.)

Naturally, a lot of visitors "get" the fact their server makes $2.33 an hour, and tip well. But in my experience, that number is maybe 15 percent. The other 85% don't care, even if they are made aware. In fact, I have read a German guide to Florida that flat out said tourists can save a lot of money on vacation by not tipping. "They won't like it. But they can't do anything about it. If the tip is added to your bill, ask for a manager to remove it. He has to."

Mostly, the US tipping situation really underscores the character of a restaurant guest, and the full-blown berk will dazzle with his or her indifference or stinginess, but this holds for both Americans and foreign visitors.

I continue to have difficulty convincing many Europeans that such wage conditions are possible (especially in places like NYC, which are as expensive as Denmark), that they truly exist; they really don't 'get' it. I've spoken with plenty who, at least initially, worried that 'tipping' might even be a sort of dodge being played on foreigners, to take advantage of their ignorance of local custom. Once they're convinced, the Europeans I know have tipped appropriately.

It just doesn't strike me that visiting foreigners are worse offenders in this matter than Americans, and one German guide can't be taken as representative (I'm curious, which one is it? Is it full of other equally charming advice?). And let's face it, if you don't take it for granted, as Americans do, not having a clear idea of how much you're going to pay up front for your meal gives a kind of uncomfortable feeling, which is naturally going to lead to questions.

[Jenni]

And what really sticks in my craw about this is, these same people living outside the US, when American tourists visit their country practically DEMAND that we know every obscure custom. If we don't, we're branded "ugly Americans" and treated like lepers.

I find this statement a little bizarre. I have to say that I have never known anyone who would expect a visting tourist from another country to know all the customs in any country. If anything, being a foreigner is a free pass to make mistakes, though of course it's a good idea to try and learn from them! Seems like you are making a vast generalisation based on a few experiences with people who are rather rude about/to Americans. I can confirm that such people do exist, but most people are friendly and welcoming.

And I promise I've never treated an American like a leper Actually I have just met a very nice American couple who are living here for a few years. They have some habits that I've found strange (coke for breakfast is among these, but obviously I know that not all Americans do this and it probably isn't limited to Americans anyway) and I have some habits that they find strange (most of the words that come out of my mouth are, apparently, hilarious and weird!). We're having a great time learning about each other and it's really funny to think how different some of our customs are. For instance, I am just learning about what they call "broiling" and about how what us Brits call barbecue is not what Americans call barbecue!

Actually it has made me quite interested in visiting some places in the US. If only flights were cheaper, and shorter! Oh, and American airport security scares me - I have a funny last name and brown-ish skin so airport security is already "fun" for me.

[Edward J]

O.K. some big lofty ideas now....

1) Ban the word "tip" and use the P.C. word of "Salary supplement".

2) Continue paying sub-minimum wages and pay the server a percentage of the gross sales that that server rang in, ie a commission and base salary.

3)Establish a series of standards and pay according to those standards.

4) Continue as always and ignore the issue

I guess that 4 would seem like the best option, as ideas 1-3 would suggest that it must be acknowledged the current N.A. tipping system/social custom is a poor one, and that the various Gov't bodies are wrong in promoting a sub-minimum wage.

It's fun to discuss, but one thing we can agree on, is that nothing will improve or change until both the public and the hospitality industry acknowledge that the current system is a lousy one.

[annabelle]

When I was a teenager, I waited tables after school and on the weekends at a rather large chain of diners that is no longer in business. I can't describe the absolute dread that would come over the waitstaff and the cooks when large tour busses of Canadians would pull up. They were bossy, demanding, condescending and DID NOT TIP. Now, this was 35+ years ago. Surely there has been sufficient time for our neighbors to the north to learn our customs since then.

Katie and others have done a very good job of explaining the tipping system in the US. It's one of our customs and shouldn't be something to make a federal case out of as a visitor to our country. Just add on 20% and call it good.