Soft Wheat Tactics

[Big Joe the Pro]

Hi, I'm living in Asia and have been making bread once or twice-a-week for a couple years now (presently have a loaf of no-knead rye in the oven). I read in McGee that Asian flours are of the soft wheat variety and I'm just wondering if there's some adaptation I can perform as I'm using hard wheat recipes (mostly 'America's Test Kitchen' stuff).

The loaves I've been making are ok but I can't help but think that they would be a little better with North American wheat. It's available here but is imported and taxed so I prefer to use the local stuff. I normally make whole wheat or white sandwich loaves (I have to buy the imported whole wheat as Chinese don't use it) or a rye (another flour that's hard to find). My son likes cinnamon bread and I'll do a no-knead loaf now and then.

I'm just thinking that there's something I could do to compensate for the softer wheat:

more or less flour?

more or less salt?

more or less yeast?

more or less water?

more or less etc., etc.?

I read in a different topic that ATK might be a little heavy on their flour weights, I'm going to start there in my experiments but perhaps someone could save me a lot of time?

OK, thanks in advance. Joe

Edited December 28, 2010 by Big Joe the Pro (log)

[stuartlikesstrudel]

One thing you can do is to add some gluten flour to your flour... you can buy it in health shops or online, and it's made from just the inner part of the wheat and ends up being very high in gluten/protein (from memory I think it's about 75% protein). If you add a tsp or two per cup of flour, it will be comparable to a harder flour. I'm not sure if it's 100% as good, it may be a lessened effectiveness, but I'm still lead to believe it's a lot better than nothing.

[Big Joe the Pro]

Hmm...I hadn't thought of that, thanks. I'll have to see if it's available here. It's always problematic finding esoteric things like that in China. I know they do something (I've forgotten the exact process, it's in McGee I think) to remove everything from flour EXCEPT the gluten and then use that for cooking. It's popular with vegetarians. I think we have some around the house, it looks like dried sticks. Surely they must have it in powdered form as well.

[Mjx]

I remember buying processed gluten to eat as a snack: it was a Japanese product, called zenryu-fu. It is quite hard and crunchy. If you were to use it in baking, I'm wondering whether it would be more effective to try incorporate it by first soaking it in water, or grinding it and adding the powder to the flour, before adding water (for the latter, you'd definitelyalmost certainly want a longer autolysis phase).

[jackal10]

THere is not a lot of difference in formulas for soft and hard wheat, maybe a little less water.

The main difference is that soft wheat doughs need much more gentle handling, and are less tolerant of wrong proof times.

Use of a preferement, maybe of about 30% of the flour,is advisable

Try your usual bread recipe, but add a little less water and see if the dough still feels right, and shorten the proof time (like half).

In general softer flour means bigger holes...the bread will be different, but still good.

Most European bread forms, like baguettes were developed for the local soft wheat.

The bread will stale more quickly, unless its sourdough.

[Mjx]

. . . .

In general softer flour means bigger holes...the bread will be different, but still good.

. . . .

Is this specific to one particular kind of soft wheat? My experience has been that soft wheat yields a more finely textured loaf with no real holes; if I want chewy, holey, bread, I use a hard wheat flour.

[jackal10]

Thats not what I've found.

When I switched to soft flour for making baguettes (intensive mix) I got a much more open texture

[Mjx]

Odd. There must be some other factor at work in the flour I use (mostly a 12% protein, all-purpose flour). A different wheat strain, perhaps.

[Blether]

I've found the most open, hole-y crumb comes from long proofing with no knock-back.

[Big Joe the Pro]

THere is not a lot of difference in formulas for soft and hard wheat, maybe a little less water.

Use of a preferement, maybe of about 30% of the flour,is advisable

Thanks Jackal10, I'll watch the proof times. I'm thinking that if ATK is heavy on their flour weights then I'm already adding less water than normal.

What's a 'preferement'? I googled it and came up with nothing.

Cheers - Joe

[baroness]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-ferment

[Mjx]

. . . .

The loaves I've been making are ok but I can't help but think that they would be a little better with North American wheat.

. . . .

I really should've asked this previously, but what don't you like about that bread quality you're getting now (lack of flavour, texture too dense/fluffy/tough, etc.)?

I'm curious about what you're getting now, just to get an idea of the baseline you're working from.

[Big Joe the Pro]

I really should've asked this previously, but what don't you like about that bread quality you're getting now (lack of flavour, texture too dense/fluffy/tough, etc.)?

I'm curious about what you're getting now, just to get an idea of the baseline you're working from.

Well, that's a good question Mjx. The loaves really aren't too bad but, you know, it's quite an investment in time to make the things so I just want to do it right.

All the recipes I use are right out of 'America's Test Kitchen', mostly that newish blue-bindered 'Family Baking' book. The rustic loaves, which use a pre-ferment, turn out great. I have to watch them pretty close as they often proof fairly quickly (I guess because of the soft wheat). The sandwich loaves and no-knead ones don't seem to rise enough (and are a tad squat and dense) but I'm following the recipes pretty closely. I guess that's the biggest problem presently.

While I'm at it, I've been trying to get a sourdough starter going without much success. Have been adding 50g of both flour and water twice-a-day. I'm going to take Jackal10's comments about using less water into account and see if that helps (40g of water and 50 of flour).

OK, well, many thanks for the replies folks.

[scott123]

Joe, I've worked with vital wheat gluten for many years and I've come to the conclusion that it's pretty much useless. If you think about it, when you overknead dough and it goes lumpy and slack, there's really nothing you can do to repair the gluten. VWG is the same way. It's made by kneading dough, washing out the starch and then drying/chopping up what's left. This is about as damaged as you can get. It's still kind of rubbery, so it's great for adding chewiness to breads, but, for acquiring the attribute that means the most- volume, I don't think it's all that functional.

I think your best bet is to purchase every local flour you can get your hands on and, using the same recipe/hydration every time, make dough with them. Take notes on what makes wet dough and what makes dry/stiff doughs. The one that absorbs the most water will be the winner. Also, for reference, see how the winner fares against the imported expensive stuff. If you're lucky, the disparity won't be too great. Also, try aging the local flour for a few months and see if that gives you better gluten development.

Edited December 30, 2010 by scott123 (log)

[Big Joe the Pro]

Thanks Scott123, yeah I tried a few doughs before settling on the one I'm using. I have a few sources for local flours that are labelled 'High Gluten'. Perhaps it would be best to just use those as all-purpose flour? I have been using it just for recipes calling for bread flour.

Maybe I need to get my hands on a good European bread baking book instead of these American one's I've been using. Any suggestions anyone?

[Mjx]

. . . .

All the recipes I use are right out of 'America's Test Kitchen', mostly that newish blue-bindered 'Family Baking' book. The rustic loaves, which use a pre-ferment, turn out great. I have to watch them pretty close as they often proof fairly quickly (I guess because of the soft wheat). The sandwich loaves and no-knead ones don't seem to rise enough (and are a tad squat and dense) but I'm following the recipes pretty closely. I guess that's the biggest problem presently.

. . . .

Hydration may be the issue.

I bake bread two or three times a week, and derived my current base recipe from ATK's sandwich loaf, slowly modifying it until I got results that were satisfactory, using locally available ingredients: This meant upping the fluid (360 ml fluid for 500g flour), so the final forming step of the original recipe is not doable--the dough is close to pourable--but I get an impressive rise even when I swap in half rye flour (which cuts the gluten down to about 6%). I usually add an autolyse step (unless time is short), and the resulting texture is firm and even, but moderately open (just right for a sandwich). If I have time, I let it rise overnight in the refrigerator (the loaf is fine without it, if less flavourful).

[Big Joe the Pro]

Just a quick thanks, you guys helped me a lot. I haven't had time to completely experiment with your suggestions (we only eat a loaf or two a week) but am looking forward to it. Cheers - Joe