Can a dish become "Indian"

[Simon Majumdar]

As most people know, the Chicken Tikka Masala is a creation not of Indian Kitchens but of Indian chefs in Birmingham, England, trying to prepare a dish that was palatable to the tastes of UK punters. It is, at worst, oily and an extraordinary bright red colour.

However, in a recent conversation with a chef at one of the top hotels in Delhi, I was told that the dish is now on just about every restaurant menu in India also. It has been refined, developed and made with natural local ingredients. His version is Chicken Tikka ( made with a wonderful sounding corriander and garlic past marinade and then tandoored ) with a rich butter, tomato and fenugreek leaf sauce.

My question is this. Can a dish created by Indian chefs who are working in the Indian Diaspora and which is taken on by hose chefs still working in India, be called an Indian dish?

S

[Jinmyo]

Well, why not?

[Jason Perlow]

If a dish can "become" american, it can become Indian, or Chinese, or whatever. Certainly other countries are susceptible to the melting pot phenomenon. In India definitely so because its already assimilated so much British food culture already.

And BTW, I didn't know it wasn't legitimately Indian or that it came from Birmingham!

[Tonyfinch]

Are you sure you're right there Simon? Tikka Masala is only one step removed from Tandoori Chicken which is definitely "Indian " in origin. I thought I read somewhere that Chicken Tikka Masala was served up at The Moti Mahal restaurant in N. Delhi which was the first place to popularise this cuisine.

The lurid version served up in a thousand Light Of Bengals may have originated here but the original was always served up in India.

[Simon Majumdar]

Tony

Positive.

Tikka is really just a way of saying morsels of chicken ( is that right Suvir?) and can be prepared with any one of hundreds of marinades. It is always tandoored although at home I prepare it on a cast iron griddle.

The masala bit is a pure western invention and originated with the Balti Houses in the Sparkhill area of Birmingham in the late 60's early 70's. It is about as Indian as Peter Sellers in The Party.

My real point is can a dish created outside of the main culinary tradition come in from the cold and be accepted?

[Jason Perlow]

I suppose if it will work for the Japanese (where this reverse osmosis occurs all the time with americanized japanese food such as California Roll) it will work for Indians with Chicken Tikka.

[Simon Majumdar]

Here is an interesting link

S

http://www.sonzyskitchen.com/chickentikka.htm

[Suvir Saran]

Are you sure you're right there Simon?  Tikka Masala is only one step removed from Tandoori Chicken which is definitely "Indian " in origin. I thought I read somewhere that Chicken Tikka Masala was served up at The Moti Mahal restaurant in N. Delhi which was the first place to popularise this cuisine.

The lurid version served up in a thousand Light Of Bengals may have originated here but the original was always served up in India.

I think I tend to agree here.

Butter chicken is made similarly and was made at Moti Mahal I believe... And we have discussed it in another thread.

[Suvir Saran]

Related thread on chicken curries

The link above will take you to the thread where Chicken Tikka Masala was discussed at length.

[Vanessa]

I suppose if it will work for the Japanese (where this reverse osmosis occurs all the time with americanized japanese food such as California Roll) it will work for Indians with Chicken Tikka.

Or tempura, a bit further back.

v

[Suvir Saran]

I suppose if it will work for the Japanese (where this reverse osmosis occurs all the time with americanized japanese food such as California Roll) it will work for Indians with Chicken Tikka.

Or tempura, a bit further back.

v

Or Curried Steak on eGullet itself not too long ago.

Curry Steak

[Tonyfinch]

I think the answer to Simon's question has to be "yes".

A country's cuisine is identified by a set of conventions which mark it out from that of others. These conventions include ingredients,preparation methods,utensils,seasonings, cooking techniques etc. etc. An Indian chef,or indeed any chef, in London can create a dish using these conventions which may never have been prepared in India but is recognized by one and all as being "Indian."

Where I have a problem is when restaurants subvert the conventions so that you are left with no culinary reference points. I believe this is what The Cinnamon Club and other "nouvelle" Indian restaurants do-apply French conventions to Indian food and leave me at any rate stranded somewhere in no-man's land.

[Suvir Saran]

I think the answer to Simon's question has to be "yes".

A country's cuisine is identified by a set of conventions which mark it out from that of others. These conventions include ingredients,preparation methods,utensils,seasonings, cooking techniques etc. etc. An Indian chef,or indeed any chef, in London can create a dish using these conventions which may never have been prepared in India but is recognized by one and all as being "Indian."

Where I have a problem is when restaurants subvert the conventions so that you are left with no culinary reference points. I believe this is what The Cinnamon Club and other "nouvelle" Indian restaurants do-apply French conventions to Indian food and leave me at any rate stranded somewhere in no-man's land.

Tony I must agree with your sentiment. I have not seen too many examples of that fusion stuff working. I think often it is the chefs and their clonies that enjoy their creations that have their heart and soul in a no mans land...

But I have witnessed a rare occasion where someone with no background in one cuisine, has studied it with care and then applied what they learn from it to their own and created something that is not true to either of the two or three cuisines this chef knows but still has grounded roots in technique and lore of each of the cuisines that was inspiration. It is a rare occurence, but will be a natural change to take place. I am certain it is taking place already, but what we are served today, is stuff that is cooked by those in a rush to get press and stars... and so, it is not always stuff that will last the test of time. It certainly passes the test of those hungry for a new thing... But that alone cannot make something new a classic.

I do agree with you, but also feel we can have fusion that works. It only takes dedication and commitment deeper than simply a craving for reviews and stars.