Distinguishing the eight regional cuisines

[udscbt]

Hello!

I’m not sure this is the right forum to post this, but here goes:

I am trying to understand the differences among the various regional cuisines in China, starting with the usual eight: Shandong, Jiangsu, Anhui, Zhejiang, Fujian, Guangdong, Hunan, Sichuan, given in some geographical order. Of course, I have read about the differences, in particular on this forum, but find it difficult to translate what I read to what I could see, smell, eat.

Biased by my upbringing as an experimental physicist, I would like to experiment with typical recipes from each of the regions to see how they differ with my eyes, nose, taste, etc, even ears in the case for example of sizzling rice. But I am having difficulty in finding recipes from some of the regions; in particular, it appears easy to find recipes in my cookbooks or on the web for the latter three regions but the others seem harder. Any suggestions for cookbooks, sites, etc? For example, are any of Yan Kit-So books what I am looking for?

I wonder, in particular, about the very definition of the word “cuisine” as opposed to, for example, a dish which is associated with a given place. An example, since I live in France, the dish called bouillabaisse is usually associated with Marseilles, just as Peking duck is associated with Peking. Even if we can associate more dishes with a given area, at what point does that make a cuisine? Surely, there must be some common elements of techniques, ingredients, etc which should enable us, confronted with a new dish, to say that it probably comes from such-and-such a tradition. Has anybody a clearer idea than I on this question?

I am not sure that I have been clear but, at least, if I could be pointed in the right direction (i.e. recipes), I would appreciate it. And I would certainly report back if people are interested.

Edited August 20, 2008 by udscbt (log)

[C J Phillips]

That's an excellent question. There's not been a whole lot of books on all of the eight major Chinese cuisines, which certainly is a pity.

I'm not really familiar with So's books, but I do know that you can get a pretty good basic grasp of many of the cuisines in Vol. III of Pei Mei's Chinese Cookbook (published in 1979; out of print, but you can sometimes find it online). It's a Chinese-English printing, and it has (along with lots of misspellings and mistranslations) chapters on traditional Jiangsu/Zhejiang, Guangdong, Sichuan, Beijing (i.e., Shandong cuisine, more or less), Hunan, Fujian, Taiwanese, and vegetarian cuisine. This includes a basic introduction to each type of cuisine, as well as recipes and photos. The book is of course pretty outdated by now, but the old girl really was a trailblazer for her time.

If you want a book in English on just the individual cuisines, like you noted, only the last three have gotten much attention over the years. There's only a couple other English-language books I can think of:

One is "The Northern Chinese Cookbook" by Chang and Kutscher (out of print; 1979); this is very dated and not very reader friendly, but it has lots of recipes from Beijing, as well as, for some strange reason, Shanghai and Sichuan. (Do you wonder whether they ever consulted a map? That's like saying France and Germany are part of Scandinavia.)

Kenneth Lo's "Chinese Regional Cooking" (out of print; 1979) has sections on "Peking and North-China Cooking," "Canton and South-China Cooking" (incl. "Four Fukien Specialties"), "Shanghai and East-China Cooking," and "Szechuan and West-China Cooking (incl. "Three Yunnan Specialities"). It's desperately in need of an update, and it's quite a grab bag, but it's better than nothing.

Do you read Chinese? If you do, I could recommend some other books. Perhaps someone more knowledgeable than me could suggest other English titles.

As for the word "cuisine" in re Chinese cooking, Wikipedia has an excellent (imho) introduction to the various cuisines, with links to more detailed info on what the major cuisines consist of (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_cuisine). Hope all of this helps!

[nickrey]

Try this thread, it may be of interest:

Edited December 15, 2009 by heidih
Fix link (log)

[udscbt]

Thanks to both of you, I now have a list of books which I should look into seriously. It seems that 1979 was a good year.

I know the wikipedia articles on Chinese cuisine quite well; I have written most of their equivalents on the French wikipedia site, starting usually with the English version.

I have done a first search and have ordered "Classic Food of China” by Yan-Kit So which I should get upon my return from London about 10 days from now.

Depending on what I find, I will also look at 1. Pei Mei's "Chinese Cooking" in 3 volumes, 2. Kenneth Lo's "Chinese Regional Cooking" 3. "The Gourmet Chinese Regional Cookbook" by Calvin B. Lee etc.

BTW. Does someone happen to know what oil temperature corresponds to "70% heated oil" which I find in some recipes?

[Danyull]

Good luck on your tasty adventure!

I've had similar musings although I stopped with the Sichuan and Hunan provinces. One thing that may help you is to get a historical and geographical understanding of the specific province or cooking style you're interested in and it'll help you understand some of the flavors and palate sensibilities.

For example, Sichuan lies on a major trading route to India, Africa, Middle-East. Many dishes incorporate very heavy spices such as cumin, chile, peppercorns, etc due to the proximity to the spice trade. Additionally, the climate there is very hot and humid in the Summer and damp and cold during the Winter. Chinese traditional medicine recommends having cleansing foods such as chiles to help cleanse the body.

Similarly, Canton has a vast coastline as well as a long growing season so the food their emphasizes the freshness of the seafood and produce.

Hope that helps some.

[pat_00]

Do you read Chinese? If you do, I could recommend some other books. Perhaps someone more knowledgeable than me could suggest other English titles.

←

Hi i read Chinese (not very well, but i'm learning) I'd love some recommendations.

As for Sichuan food, check out Fuschia Dunlop's books. I've cooked a few dishes out of them and the results have been pretty close to what i've eaten in Sichuan. It can be hard to get decent quality sichuan pepper though, and that makes a huge difference.

[udscbt]

Hello again.

After having consulted many references, including many cook books as well as the climate and geography, I have first tried to distinguish the 4 regions (Northeast, Southeast, South and Southwest) with some “key words” and a few corresponding dishes (see below) for which I have a version of a recipe. This is obviously a simplification but I have found it useful to proceed from the simple to the complicated. Even so, distinguishing the Anhui , Jiangsu and Zhejiang cuisines will be very difficult for me, I think!

Northeast Key words: simple & robust; garlic/ginger/scallion/soy sauce seasonings, wheat, lamb, cabbage, Hoisin sauce, barbecue, Tsingtao beer

Dishes:

· Mongolian Stewed Garlic (紅 燒 蒜 頭 )

· Mu Shu Pork (木 须 肉 ) with Mandarin Pancakes (木 须 饼 )

· Peking-style Lamb in Sweet Bean Sauce ( 醬 爆 羊 肉 )

· Pickled Cabbage Peking style (腌 汁 白 菜 京 菜 )

Southeast Key words: rich & sweet; green tea, bamboo shoots, fish/shellfish, Chinkiang vinegar, red-cooking, Shaoxing wine

Dishes:

· Beggar's Chicken ( 叫 化 鸡 )

· Dong po Pork with Bamboo shoots ( 東 坡 肉 笋 )

· West Lake Carp in Vinegar (西 湖 鲤 鱼 在 醋 的 )

· LongJing Tea and Shrimps (龙 井 虾 仁 )

South Key words: light & mild; seafood-based seasonings with meat dishes, dim sum, salted/preserved black beans

Dishes:

· Braised crispy chicken (炸 子 鸡 )

· Sweet and Sour pork (咕 噜 肉 )

· Buddha Jumps Over the Wall (佛 跳 墙 )

· Steamed Whole Fish, Scallions and Black Beans (清 蒸 全 魚 )

Southwest Key words: highly seasoned & aromatic; fresh/dried chillies, Sichuan pepper, fermented bean and sesame pastes

Dishes

· Grand Duke's chicken (宫 保 鸡 丁 )

· Pork style-fish (鱼 香 肉 丝 )

· Down-Home Hunan Tofu ( 麻 婆 豆 腐 )

· Don-Don Noodles (担 担 面 )

Before continuing, I would like to know if there are any comments? In particular, are my key words meaningful and/or complete? Are the dishes representative? Are there any other suggestions? Thanks!!

[liuzhou]

Apart from the huge over-simplification, there are some mistakes or distractions.

 

I will limit my comments to the Southern dishes, which I know best.

 

There is no need to render 宫保鸡丁 as Grand Duke's chicken. It is known throughout the English speaking world as Kungpo Chicken.

 

鱼香肉丝 is not "Pork style-fish". If anything, the opposite. It translates as "Fish Taste Pork Strips. This doesn't mean that it tastes of fish. It means the pork is cooked with ingredients more usually used with fish.

 

麻婆豆腐 Mapo Doufu is from Sichuan, not Hunan and the name does not mean Down-Home. See here.

Don-Don Noodles (担担面) are more usually referred to as Dan Dan Noodles.

 

If you said what the purpose of this "keyword" exercise is about, it would be easier to offer advice.

Good luck.

Edited June 3, 2020 by liuzhou (log)

[udscbt]

Thanks a lot for your rapid response Liuzhou and, in particular, for your corrections.

I used the name Grand Duke to avoid using the pinyin for those who don't know it; perhaps I should use both. Similarly, would you agree to call Mapo Doufu (which is indeed from Sichuan: I copied an incorrect line, mea culpa!) also Pock-Marked Ma's Bean Curd to avoid using only the pinyin? I am afraid that my "Pork style-fish" was a crude short hand for "Pork in the style of fish" which I think is an OK title. OK for Dan-Dan which is closer to the pinyin, though Tropp and Chiang use Don-Don for some reason.

More important, is the reason for this exercise which I tried to explain in post#1 of this thread. I am trying to understand, recipes in hand and attempted, the usual 8 regional cuisine distinction. Are they distinct cuisines or a number of dishes originating in a given region?

To make things easier for me, I have started with the 4 "super-regions". For example, the Southwest includes Sichuan and Hunan cuisines. Later, if all this makes sense, perhaps I can try to distinguish, for example the Southeast region into the Anhui, Jiangsu and Zhejiang cuisines.

The keywords are an attempt to start simply at making distinctions, and then necessarily to make things more complicated as needed.

ps. I am probably influenced by my training as an elementrary particle physicist in which concepts start from rather simple building blocks. Since a cuisine is perhaps more closely associated with chemistry, maybe my approach is inadequate.

Hope this makes sense. Thanks for your interest.

[udscbt]

Two more points:

1. I live in France and the Chinese restaurants apparently don't use pinyin in the their names for dishes, thus no MapoDoufu, Dan Dan or Kung Pao.

2. My aim is to be able to identify (or to explain to someone else) the origin of a given dish with a reasonable certainty, given its look, fragrance, taste, ingredients, cooking method,etc. Thus my use of key words as "parameters" for the identification.

Is this possible without making too many mistakes? I think it probably is possible, even for me, when restricted to North/East/South/West (my first try) but I wonder about the 8 regional cuisines, in particular those from the East (Anhui, Jiangsu, Zhejiang).

I'll stop here and get back to the election results....

[liuzhou]

The trouble with "Grand Duke" is that it neither tells you anything about the dish, nor is it a translation of the Chinese. The Chinese is closer to "Palace Chicken". Sometimes you just can't translate. You have to explain.

Incidentally, Kungpo is not pinyin. That would be Gong Bao.

Pock-Marked Ma's Bean Curd is also a reasonably well known name, but again a description is usually better. I often see it on English menus in pinyin, with a description attached.

There is a dish on my local restaurant menu which translates as "Maternal Grandmother's Fragrant Fluttering Bones". But I'm not going to write that on the menu translation! Meaningless.

My aim is to be able to identify (or to explain to someone else) the origin of a given dish with a reasonable certainty

Admirable, and well intentioned, but I think in 99% of cases it will prove impossible. But have fun.

Enjoy the election results.

Edited November 5, 2008 by liuzhou (log)

[Fengyi]

There is a dish on my local restaurant menu which translates as "Maternal Grandmother's Fragrant Fluttering Bones". But I'm not going to write that on the menu translation! Meaningless.

←

I love those weird names...the ones where you just have to ask the waiter 'what the heck is this dish?'

Particularly prevalent in wedding banquet menus....

More to the point, udscbt, you can come to Beijing and eat at every single one of the provincial restaurants here! That would give you a great idea of regional differences...!

But honestly, the regional classifications can make for fascinating arguments. I sometimes bring it up at meetings with Food and Wine magazine editors just to see the fur fly!

[liuzhou]

I love those weird names...the ones where you just have to ask the waiter 'what the heck is this dish?'

Then he runs off to ask the chef. Go back the next night. different waiter, different chef, different answer.

[udscbt]

Thanks for your responses.

As I said in my 4/11 post, I live in Paris, France and therefore am quite familiar with French regional cooking. I have been cooking dishes from Sichuan and Hunan for some time, and recently I got interested in the other regions. I was intrigued by a post by “theabc” on 19 June 2007 on another forum (http://forum.chinesepod.com/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=1884) in which she asks, among other interesting questions, « What is really defining between Jiangsu and Zhejiang other than the specific tastes of its famous dishes?” That led me to wonder about the difference between a cuisine and a list of dishes.

This influenced me to look at the differences among the Chinese regional cuisines which, I think, are larger than those here. Nonetheless, in France, one can make a fair guess as to the origin of some dishes by looking, for example, at a) the use of butter, cream or olive oil, or b) the use of beer or apple cider, or c) the cheeses, or d) local products such as snails, etc. I would think that this should be possible for Chinese regional cuisines, but Liuzhou doesn’t seem to think so, giving me only a 1% chance of getting a correct answer (a random choice among the four would give 25%!).

Maybe, this is not a particularly interesting path of investigation. As someone said, “I am very fond of eating” and maybe I should just stick to that.

By the way, we will be visiting China next October for a month and so will certainly take up Fenyi’s suggestion. Unfortunately, in Paris there are few restaurants which announce their regional origin; I know of only one or two from Sichuan, a few from Wenzhou, another from Shandong, maybe another from Hunan, etc.

Have a good day!

[hzrt8w]

This influenced me to look at the differences among the Chinese regional cuisines which, I think, are larger than those here. Nonetheless, in France, one can make a fair guess as to the origin of some dishes by looking, for example, at a) the use of butter, cream or olive oil, or b) the use of beer or apple cider, or c) the cheeses, or d) local products such as snails, etc. I would think that this should be possible for Chinese regional cuisines, but Liuzhou doesn’t seem to think so, giving me only a 1% chance of getting a correct answer (a random choice among the four would give 25%!).

←

Yours is an interesting quest but may not be too easy to fulfill.

I am a native Chinese. I eat Chinese food all my life. Even for me, I can't tell the differences between the big 8 Chinese cuisines. I can tell between Cantonese (my native region), Sichuan, Shanghai and Beijing (I think). Perhaps Hunan. But beyond that, it's a bit blurry. And consider this... I had been living in China half of my life.

Now imagine if I want to distinguish the differences between the eight regional French cuisines. And I have been to France only once. Where I live, there are only a few French restaurants. I don't know what region of French food they serve. I can read all I want about French cooking from books...

Chinese restaurants oversea (in Europe/USA/Canada/S.America, etc.) are mostly Cantonese because of historical reasons. Only until recent decades that other regional Chinese restaurants became to spread. So Cantonese style is still the most widely available.

[udscbt]

Hello again.

From what I gather from your various responses, the question of how to distinguish the various regional cuisines is an interesting one. Apparently, it is possible for the Four Great Traditions (Cantonese, Sichuan, Shandong, and Huaiyang) in the nomenclature of wikipedia but very difficult for the eight regional cuisines.

Since I began with these four, let me continue by proposing the following exercise: I suggest to propose recipes (Internet does not yet allow us to taste yet!) whose name, regional origin and source reference are at first omitted; I will begin by proposing two at the end of this message. Responses as to the proposed name and possible regional origin are then posted wherein it is important to give one’s method of analysis and criteria. After a certain time (1 week?, 2 weeks?), the sources are revealed. In this way, one can begin to understand how people make their judgements, what criteria are used, which then could help us understand how to distinguish the different cuisines. What do you think of this suggestion?

Assuming that there are some who are willing to join in this exercise, you should find two recipes for analysis and discussion. Perhaps they are not the best choice, but it’s a start. So, can we associate each recipe with one of the 4 regions?

Recipe #1

1 lb fresh bacon/fatty pork + 4 cups water: cut in chunks & cover with water; bring to boil 3 min; slice very thinly across grain into pieces 2 inch x 1 inch

3 leeks : slice both green and white parts lengthwise in two, wash, cut in 2 inch lengths

2 green peppers : wash, cut in 1 inch squares

4 cloves garlic: smash, peel & chop into match heads

stir-fry with 1 Tbsp oil:

heat wok 20 sec over high flame, add oil

1/2 tsp salt : add green peppers & salt 2 min; remove

add leeks 2 min; remove

2 Tbsp oil: add oil & 6 fattiest slices to render

1 Tbsp hot pepper paste + 1,5 Tbsp hoisin sauce : add garlic, hot pepper paste, hoisin sauce & remaining pork for 2.5 min (mixture should be dry)

return green peppers/leeks for 2.5 min and serve

Recipe #2

Sauce:

1 Tbsp fermented black beans + 1 Tbsp salted yellow beans + 1/2 tsp sugar + 1 tsp sesame oil: mash beans with sugar & sesame oil into a paste

4-5 Tbsp oil + 4-6 cloves garlic chopped + 3/4 inch x 1 inch diameter ginger chopped fine + 1 green or red chili seeded and sliced in rounds + 1-1.5 Tbsp Shaohsing rice wine: heat wok over high heat; add oil 10 sec; add garlic and stir 10 sec; add ginger and stir 10 sec; add mashed bean paste and stir; add chili; add wine and stir; lower heat; remove

12 medium/large prawns in shell/no heads: remove legs; pat dry; slice lengthwise in 2 except for tails; discard veins; arrange around heatproof dish

Spoon sauce over prawns; steam in wok or steamer at moderate high heat for 3-4 min

Few coriander leaves torn in pieces: scatter coriander over prawns; cover and steam briefly and serve

[liuzhou]

I would say the first is probably England but the second is definitely Scotland.

[pat_00]

Speaking of England, which of the eight regional Chinese cuisines serves everything with baked beans and chips as a side?

(my one and only experience of Chinese food in England)

[Ce'nedra]

What does Teochew cuisine fall under? I know it's technically part of Guangdong but the cuisine itself is much closer to that of Fujian.

[RichardGustave]

I just stumbled upon a recorded lecture about the people and food of the Fujian province. It features the author of the recently published "Cooking from China's Fujian Province: One of China's Eight Great Cuisines". I have yet to receive the book, but hopefully it's a sign that we'll continue to see new regional Chinese publications.

http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/920447

[faine]

Very interesting thread, and I like the recommendations for source materials. The Fujian lecture and book also look extremely useful.

Considering that China is vastly larger (and older, in most senses) then France, I think pinpointing the origin of these cuisines would indeed be a real bitch. Not that I wouldn't like to see someone try. Perhaps someone should write a definitive English book on regional Chinese food and its differences.

A question - would most Chinese chefs consider the food of the far Northwest (Xinjiang) to be included under the appellation of Chinese cuisine? Or (as the region was incorporated into China rather recently and is culturally distinct), is it considered to be a different beast?

[udscbt]

I just stumbled upon a recorded lecture about the people and food of the Fujian province. It features the author of the recently published "Cooking from China's Fujian Province: One of China's Eight Great Cuisines". I have yet to receive the book, but hopefully it's a sign that we'll continue to see new regional Chinese publications.

http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/920447

←

Hello Richard Gustave,

That was a great link. The video is quite informative (about 80 minutes long). I have already ordered the book.

I have since found the site of the magazine that the conference speaker, Jacqueline Newman, edits. The magazine is called “Flavor and Fortune” (dedicated to the art and science of Chinese cuisine) and its site is http://www.flavorandfortune.com/index.html . You probably know about it already.

It is interesting to note, at least for me, that, among the many articles that one can read on line, there is one on “Regional Chinese Cooking” (http://www.flavorandfortune.com/dataaccess...icle.php?ID=105) in which the author gives 4 chicken recipes, one from each of the 4 regions (I know, it is more complicated than that) which brings me back to the thread on regional and inter-regional menus: http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?showtopic=124938. While 4 chicken dishes on one menu is surely TOO much, maybe 2 is not so crazy after all if one is trying to understand regional differences with one's family and/or friends.

Have a good day.

[dmreed]

I just stumbled upon a recorded lecture about the people and food of the Fujian province. It features the author of the recently published "Cooking from China's Fujian Province: One of China's Eight Great Cuisines". I have yet to receive the book, but hopefully it's a sign that we'll continue to see new regional Chinese publications.

http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/920447

←

the recipes on the link look very interesting...there are a couple that I will ask for at my favorite Thai restaurant!

[dmreed]

That's an excellent question. There's not been a whole lot of books on all of the eight major Chinese cuisines, which certainly is a pity.

...

If you want a book in English on just the individual cuisines, like you noted, only the last three have gotten much attention over the years. There's only a couple other English-language books I can think of:

...

One is "The Northern Chinese Cookbook" by Chang and Kutscher (out of print; 1979); this is very dated and not very reader friendly, but it has lots of recipes from Beijing, as well as, for some strange reason, Shanghai and Sichuan. (Do you wonder whether they ever consulted a map? That's like saying France and Germany are part of Scandinavia.)

←

why do you consider The Northern Chinese Cookbook not reader friendly? it seems to be prettyclear to me.

[udscbt]

Hello,

I am still trying to understand the differences among the regional cuisines, acknowledging that with time these may seem less distinct. Obviously, the availability of local products and preferences in techniques, flavors and textures shape these cuisines, as well as the history of each region.

In addition, I wonder if some of you have ever considered the following questions about the differences among, for example, Canton, Beijing, Shanghai or Sichuan cuisines:

1. Are there regional differences in

a. the idea of a meal?

b. the number of dishes served?

c. the balance between hot and cold dishes, between starches and meats?

d. what a dish should look like?

2. Does each regional cuisine include appetizers or small dishes? Before coming to the table? At the beginning of the meal?

3. Is soup served with the other dishes or at the end/beginning of the meal? Does this depend on the kind of soup? Does soup replace the need to drink some liquid?

4. Does one drink (or not) water, tea, wine or beer during the meal in all regions?

5. Are sweets ever served as condiments or as desserts?

Most probably, there are no clear-cut answers to such questions but it would be useful to have the experience of people who are from or have lived in the different regions. On the other hand, if you think that such questioning will lead to nowhere, it would be useful to know why.

Does anyone know of any book, article or thesis which deals with some of these questions?

Thanks.