Menu Size & Quality at Cocktail Bars

[BryanZ]

[Moderator's note: this topic has been split off from the Death & Co. topic -- CA]

Much like the quality of a restaurant's dishes often drops the larger its menu gets, is this a concern at cocktail bars?

Edited June 30, 2008 by chrisamirault (log)

[Nathan]

Much like the quality of a restaurant's dishes often drops the larger its menu gets, is this a concern at cocktail bars?

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so long as the drinks are well-chosen...it shouldn't...

the necessary skill set for mixing cocktails isn't nearly as broad as it is for culinary mastery...you just need the ingredients, the proportions and the ice (obviously good technique is mandatory but there are only a few different things you need to know how to do as opposed to hundreds or thousands)

[daisy17]

Much like the quality of a restaurant's dishes often drops the larger its menu gets, is this a concern at cocktail bars?

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I'll defer to the experts, but the bartenders at places like D&Co. have incredibly extensive repertoires and go off menu constantly, even creating new cocktails on the spot, and that certainly doesn't negatively affect the quality.

Edited June 30, 2008 by daisy17 (log)

[slkinsey]

I doubt it. Ultimately, most of these guys have far more cocktails than 74 rattling around in their noggins.

My concern would be that a 74 cocktail menu as a whole might not have the same level of originality and inventiveness as it might if the same menu were whittled down to the 15 most original and inventive cocktails.

Now, I air this "concern" not having seen or tasted the cocktails on D&C's new menu, so it's really speaking to large menus in general rather than D&C in particular. This may or may not be reflective of the situation with respect to their new menu. One thing I can say for sure is that every drink I've had there, and from the hands of D&C's mixologists, has been excellent. So I don't think there's any need to fear in that regard.

Across-the-board inventiveness and originality on the menu may be another story, and here again as an example I can reference D&C, which has always been known for having a large menu. I remember from an older menu their "6th Street Swizzle" consisting of an admixture of La Favorite rhum agricole, lime, cane sugar and Angostura bitters. It was delicious, but not exactly highly original or inventive. Just a nice iteration of a standard swizzle. I'm guessing this drink would not have been likely to make it onto the list if their menu had consisted of only 15 cocktails, simply by virtue of the fact that there were at least that number of highly original and inventive cocktails (and punches!) on the list. Rather, this is the sort of drink that other cocktail bars with a different menu philosophy would have been likely to have on a rolodex or database of "house" recipes behind the bar, rather than on the menu.

But, I should point out that this really only affects the originality and inventiveness of the menu. The number of cocktails and the overall inventiveness and originality might be more or less the same at both places. The difference, then, would be that many house iterations or minor variations are on the menu at one place whereas they are in a book behind the bar at the other place.

Ultimately, I think that having the huge menu at D&C is a good idea for their situation. The bar area is relatively small, and having the 74 drink repertoire on a menu provides customers who are not able to directly interact with the bartenders with a greatly expanded ability to take advantage of the bar's total offerings and abilities, which would only be possible with a seat at the bar if the menu were only 20 drinks. I think it's also a good idea in that it standardizes their offerings. Cocktail bars with a number of talented bartenders who can go "off menu" are always trying to get their guys to put their favorite and successful explorations into the bar's database so that everyone at the bar can make that drink if a customer requests it. But it often doesn't work that way, and you find yourself really in the mood for a Flaming Mo only to find that the guy who usually makes it for you has the night off that evening, and the recipe isn't in the book. With a menu of 74 cocktails, that shouldn't happen at D&C. Sounds like fun!

[eje]

Now if only Death & Co would use a large enough font for their menu, so that middle aged men could read it in the relative dark without getting out their reading glasses and a flashlight... Vain, I know...

[daisy17]

Originality and inventiveness are without a doubt important, but I would also think that a good menu should appeal to people who are already knowledgeable about cocktails, as well as those who think margaritas could be made without Cointreau. I enjoy seeing classics on cocktail menus - they're classics for a reason. If you've never had a swizzle, you've got to start somewhere, right? As long as some are new and interesting (and in this case, they are), I'm not going to expect it all the way through.

One of the things I personally like about an extensive menu is that it offers more variety even if the bartender individually is not super experienced. This doesn't apply to D&Co, but there are some other places at which I've had difficulty going off menu, and a more extensive menu would help.

[eje]

Aside from any quality control issues, personally, as a customer, I find a list of more than 20 cocktails a bit overwhelming.

When a bartender or server hands me an extensive bound booklet of cocktails, I kind of wonder what I am supposed to do. Usually they expect you to make a decision while they are waiting. Are you supposed to just open to a page and point? Read through the whole thing before ordering?

I usually just end up asking the bartender to make something.

I'd rather see a list of 20 featured cocktails that changes frequently. Something I can read through in a couple minutes and make a quick decision.

[slkinsey]

Again, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with having the huge menu. I'm just pointing out one of its effects.

I don't think there's anything wrong with having classics on the menu, of having a section of the menu devoted to classics. This is actually fairly commonplace among the better cocktail lounges.

I'm just saying that I can see a potential situation where a gigantic menu is filled with a large percentage of cocktails that really represent minor tweaks.

[Kent Wang]

How about a short features section of about 20 cocktails at the front of the menu and then an extended selection afterwards?

[eje]

And I'm not saying that I don't think that the talented young men at Death & Co don't pull off their large menu.

It's just, usually, when I see a long menu, I don't find execution across the board on all the cocktails to be stellar.

I mean, long menus usually look something more like this:

Smoky's Club Menu

Oh yes, scroll past the delicious supper club fare, down to the after dinner cognac. Hmm... That's odd. Why would they list "Ice Cream Drinks" next? The Grasshopper is an "Ice Cream Drink"? Reaching the "Special Ice Cream Drinks" you may start to get a bit nervous. You may break out in a cold sweat as you read the list of "Frosted Margaritas and Daiquiris"? In what sense is a Pina Colada among "Refreshing Exotic Delights"? Perhaps the presence of the "Journalist" at the beginning of the "Martini" section will reassure you. Go no further, if you are a sensitive soul. For page after page of choco-frangel-tastic-berry-tinis await. The horror! Oh, the horror!

[daisy17]

Length is definitely the problem with this menu. I can completely see how you'd be concerned that the Creamsicletini isn't going to be as well made as, say, the Raznutstini or the Mochanillatini. I hate that.

[eje]

I know, I was being a bit silly by giving that example.

Still, if you travel outside of a few cities, this sort of "all candy, all the time" bar menu is far more common than the rarefied mixology of places like Death & Co.

Most of the time, I'd settle for a well made Manhattan, and most of the time I'm disappointed.

[Nathan]

And I'm not saying that I don't think that the talented young men at Death & Co don't pull off their large menu.

It's just, usually, when I see a long menu, I don't find execution across the board on all the cocktails to be stellar.

I mean, long menus usually look something more like this:

Smoky's Club Menu

Oh yes, scroll past the delicious supper club fare, down to the after dinner cognac.  Hmm...  That's odd.  Why would they list "Ice Cream Drinks" next?  The Grasshopper is an "Ice Cream Drink"?  Reaching the "Special Ice Cream Drinks" you may start to get a bit nervous.  You may break out in a cold sweat as you read the list of "Frosted Margaritas and Daiquiris"?  In what sense is a Pina Colada among "Refreshing Exotic Delights"?  Perhaps the presence of the "Journalist" at the beginning of the "Martini" section will reassure you.  Go no further, if you are a sensitive soul.  For page after page of choco-frangel-tastic-berry-tinis await.  The horror!  Oh, the horror!

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(shudders)

last night I was at a bar in midtown Manhattan (ok, it was Hell's Kitchen) called "Vintage"....a friend proclaimed them as having "great martinis"....the drinks were similar to the list above (and as long)...without the ice cream concoctions.

what's almost worst is that the bar's moniker was completely misleading...the wine list was horrid.

[Snowy is dead]

I mean, long menus usually look something more like this:

Smoky's Club Menu

Just for fun:

110 drinks listed

all but 37 end in the suffix 'tini

of those 37, 7 end in the word cosmopolitain

Personally, I enjoy large lists if I know the bar can pull it off. I recall Eastern Standard in Boston having a relatively modest, frequently changed, menu of classics and innovations. Now their menu is quite large, but for me I enjoy having more of a selection.

Eastern Standard's Cocktail menu

Edited July 1, 2008 by Snowy is dead (log)

[bostonapothecary]

I mean, long menus usually look something more like this:

Smoky's Club Menu

Just for fun:

110 drinks listed

all but 37 end in the suffix 'tini

of those 37, 7 end in the word cosmopolitain

Personally, I enjoy large lists if I know the bar can pull it off.  I recall Eastern Standard in Boston having a relatively modest, frequently changed, menu of classics and innovations.  Now their menu is quite large, but for me I enjoy having more of a selection.

Eastern Standard's Cocktail menu

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eastern standard's menu is large, but it seems to work quite well for them. they don't list ingredients so a dialogue is opened up and the staff talks about the drinks like someone would a wine of an obscure varietal... they make everything with some pretty exceptional consistency as well. just like a glass of wine...

i wish my restaurant could attempt the same, but contrary to my staff being a bunch of communists they never embraced a love of standardization...

[KatieLoeb]

Anyone that can publish and recreate that many drinks consistently has my hat off to them. I know from my visits to D&Co. that everything is measured and standardized (or at least from outward appearances, seems to be), so more power to 'em.

I usually have only eight specialty drinks on the menu at any given time, but that's usually a matter of space since it's on the same page of the menu as eight draught beers, and a large selection of small and large format bottled beers. But I'm always happy to make stuff "off menu" or from a prior season's menu. That's a lot harder to do in a larger place with a bigger rotating staff than at my bar. I keep a card file with the drink recipes under the register for the night's I'm not working, so that consistency is maintained. Again, a lot easier to do with only one other person bartending on my nights off. How does a place like D&Co. manage to do that? Are the drink recipes all saved in a place that everyone has access to them? What happens when the creator of the drinks is off/out of town? One has to presume that everyone is both properly trained and has recipes available to them so that recreating the more obscure/less frequently ordered drinks is seamless.

[samuraibartender]

How does a place like D&Co. manage to do that?  Are the drink recipes all saved in a place that everyone has access to them?  What happens when the creator of the drinks is off/out of town?  One has to presume that everyone is both properly trained and has recipes available to them so that recreating the more obscure/less frequently ordered drinks is seamless.

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Perhaps they have a function in their POS system that calls up the drink recipe when it's added to a tab/pulled up? In the visits I've made there, I've never seen anyone reach for a 'cheat-book' of recipes, no matter how 'off-the-trodden path' my order was, so I don't know that they even have one of those there.

This may not have any bearing, but I've seen (in several places) print that claims Phil Ward has a "photographic" memory... As for the other 'tenders, who knows - maybe that's their secret?

Now there's a wanted ad for you, "All potential applicants must have a certifiably-edetic memory"

Cheers!

PS - Last week I was priviliged to be behind the bar at D&Co (pre-hours) for the NY-leg of the Martin Miller's G&T competition - let me say, what a gorgeous (and extremely intimidating, to me at least) set-up!

[slkinsey]

How does a place like D&Co. manage to do that?

They have all the drinks on the menu memorized. These guys all know a lot more than 74 drinks from memory.

Actually, it's easier than it sounds. All you have to do is think: "A 'Final Ward' is a 'Last Word' with rye and lemon" or "a 'Silver Lining' is a rye sour with Cuarenta y Tres as the sweet."

[bostonapothecary]

How does a place like D&Co. manage to do that?

They have all the drinks on the menu memorized. These guys all know a lot more than 74 drinks from memory.

Actually, it's easier than it sounds. All you have to do is think: "A 'Final Ward' is a 'Last Word' with rye and lemon" or "a 'Silver Lining' is a rye sour with Cuarenta y Tres as the sweet."

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i bet a big part of their success is that their staff is actually into it... if a team member creates a good drink off menu they want to know about it, and even maybe go try it themselves...

there are lots of great bartenders out there that are not lucky enough to work with team members that are as enthusiastic about aspects of their job...

[brinza]

Perhaps the presence of the "Journalist" at the beginning of the "Martini" section will reassure you.

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Now that is odd. Why didn't they just call it a Jouralis-tini for the sake of consistency? Especially since they've already applied the hatchet job to the Harvey Wallbanger immediately preceeding it. I love how they practically take credit for inventing the smoky martini. I was in a place in Newport News where they listed a cocktail consisting of tequila, cointreau, and lime juice. They had the nerve (or the ignorance) to call it a Margari-tini.

[Glacies]

I agree. I visited PDT a few nights ago with a few friends. Although we received menus, none of the cocktails that we had were from the menu. I noticed that this was the case for almost everyone sitting at the bar. I had a similar experience at the Violet Hour the last time that I was in Chicago.

[thirtyoneknots]

there are lots of great bartenders out there that are not lucky enough to work with team members that are as enthusiastic about aspects of their job...

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Amen

[thirtyoneknots]

Perhaps the presence of the "Journalist" at the beginning of the "Martini" section will reassure you.

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Now that is odd. Why didn't they just call it a Jouralis-tini for the sake of consistency? Especially since they've already applied the hatchet job to the Harvey Wallbanger immediately preceeding it. I love how they practically take credit for inventing the smoky martini. I was in a place in Newport News where they listed a cocktail consisting of tequila, cointreau, and lime juice. They had the nerve (or the ignorance) to call it a Margari-tini.

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I get this all the time: "What is that?" "That's an Old-School Margarita" "Oh what's in it?" "Just a good blanco tequila, Cointreau, and fresh lime juice" "Oh! A Mexican Martini!" <Stabs self in eye with barspoon>

[phlip]

Every bartender does not have all the drinks memorized yet. Some do consult recipes right now, if for no other reason to double check. Dedication demands one not forget that dash of bitters. Now Sam about a long list not being as inventive I'm not so sure I agree with you. Your point about the 6th street swizzle, have you seen that on any other list?? Also we know the simplest things can be the most delecious(think martini or old fashion here). What often ruins drinks is people try to be too inventive. Less is more. There is delectible treats passed right over in the name of ten ingrediant catastrophe. Furthermore a large list offers balance of choices for all spirits (worth mentioning) and variations with that spirit, IE shaken or stirred. Also what I feel one of our most important jobs is to open peoples eyes to new ingrediants. For example we have two batavia arrack based cocktails on the list. The only reason this is possible is because of the size of the list. The drinks are not for everybody but we can still put them on the list because we don't have sacrifice drinks that are for everybody on a spot on a menu of only10 or 15 cocktails. Also our list allows us to showcase families of drinks. We have a champagne, julep, daquiri, punch, tall cooler, and multiple choice sections. Its not 70 drinks, its organized with families and spirits. Also think of all the people who go to there favorite bars and don't look at a menu and just have the bartender whip something up for them(sound familiar Sam?) I wanted a menu that would cater to these important patrons. Why design a menu with people only visiting once in mind. A menu of 70 is for those who come and come again for their on going entertainment and refreshment.

Lastly people are getting more and more outlandish in there requests for suggestions.... "I feel like blueberry with a hint of perhaps black truffle and a dash of foam which must be of a bright hue, not too sweet but I want it to be rich and I want it strong but not to taste boozy. Oh and please I'd like it served in a 18th century brass goblet(unstemmed)!"

The more drinks I have the better chance of finding something to please maybe even the unpleasable.

Yes it can be overwhelming to some people but I'll take that risk because it will be boring to no one.

Yes the font is bigger.

[eje]

[...]

Yes the font is bigger.

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This middle aged man who is too vain to use reading glasses and carry a flaslight can't wait to visit again...

Edited July 2, 2008 by eje (log)