Cheese Bread troubleshooting

[KevinS]

So at work the usual guy that makes the bread is taking a vacation, so they are getting me to make it while he is gone. Me and the guy that make bread (I do not refer to him as a baker because he himself said he is not one and only makes the bread because that is what the bosses ask him to do) both discusses how crappy our cheese bread is. The management has never said anything, but both me and him seem to agree that while the bread has an ok flavor (could be better though) it just gets so dry and has a bad texture. I was wondering if some of the more experienced bakers here could help us out and tweak the recipe, or offer advice.

Here's the recipe.

5 oz yeast, activated in 2 cups of water

32 cups high gluten flour (I Know we should probably use weight, and this is probably one of the things we need to correct)

1 bag (it's a rather large, restaurant size bag of cheese) sharp cheddar

1/2 cup kosher salt

10 eggs

1.5 cups oil (I think we use an 80/20 blend of vege and olive)

1 cup sesame seeds.

about 12 cups of warm water, depending on humidity.

Pretty much we just add all the ingredients to the jumbo mixer we have and let it knead away until it seems ready to roll. Then we roll it into 5 ounce rolls and proof it in our big humidity box thing (I am not a baker, so please excuse my lack of terms, or basic knowledge of the subject).

Then bake for 17 minutes at 350 degrees.

Yield: about 75 loaves.

If anyone could help us out with a tweak on the ingredients or a better method we would really appreciate it!

[muichoi]

Way, way too much yeast, salt and oil. Not enough water.

[Tiny]

Its hard for me to comment on your recipe itself as I am not used to using volumetric measurments. Also I haven't been heavily into bread making in a little while.

What I do notice is that your method is somewhat short and incomplete. After you mix the dough, you need to let it bulk ferment or "rise" till it approx. doubles in size then you fold it and scale it into what ever size loaf you require, after scaling and cutting the dough you pre shape it into a ball and let it rest some covered by a damp towel. after bench resting for 20 or 30 minutes, you shape the loaves and put them in their pans the proof them in your proofer. once they are proofed sufficently you score and bake.

[KevinS]

Yay tips! I shall keep these in mind and definitely try them out next time when cooking.

I should have posted that after we mix we proof, then size out and roll, proof again, then bake. We do not score these as we want them to be more like rolls, though I may score a few of them in the next batch to see what kind of different it would make.

Any ideas as to the correct measurements (or better ones) for the yeast, salt, oil, and water?

[judec]

it just gets so dry and has a bad texture.

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There are a few ways to tenderize the dough. You can take a portion of the water and replace it with milk or add more oil.

If we were talking about 2-3 loaves, then I'd be quick to suggest specific measurements and tweaks. Would you be able to take the baker's percentages to scale down the recipe and make smaller test batches?

[KevinS]

it just gets so dry and has a bad texture.

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There are a few ways to tenderize the dough. You can take a portion of the water and replace it with milk or add more oil.

If we were talking about 2-3 loaves, then I'd be quick to suggest specific measurements and tweaks. Would you be able to take the baker's percentages to scale down the recipe and make smaller test batches?

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Well I have the recipe in front of me and it's my birthday so I have the day off of work. So, I see no reason why I can't do a small home test batch to start my dinner off tonight.

Note: This is just me being excited and in no way related to the topic, but my FL cookbook finally came in today, and I'm most definitely treating myself to this tonight http://carolcookskeller.blogspot.com/2008/...-confit-of.html to go with the bread =D

[tino27]

Just make sure when you make the scaled down test version that you weigh everything. That way it's much easier to get into Baker's Percentages and easier to play around with.

[KevinS]

Just make sure when you make the scaled down test version that you weigh everything. That way it's much easier to get into Baker's Percentages and easier to play around with.

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Yeah I know one of the big problems is that we don't weigh the flour so it's not possible to be consistent every time. I've been meaning to pick up a good digital scale (my current one is a junky spring loaded thing), so it seems like today is the perfect day to do it.

[devlin]

Just make sure when you make the scaled down test version that you weigh everything. That way it's much easier to get into Baker's Percentages and easier to play around with.

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Yeah I know one of the big problems is that we don't weigh the flour so it's not possible to be consistent every time. I've been meaning to pick up a good digital scale (my current one is a junky spring loaded thing), so it seems like today is the perfect day to do it.

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I have a "junky spring loaded" scale, and it works just fine. You need to start there. Truly. Next time, just weigh the flour and then you can adjust water and flour later if you like, but you need to start weighing now. Just do it!

I dunno, but I read "sesame seeds" and thought, "huh?" Why sesame seeds in a cheddar cheese bread? It just sounds a little odd, and frankly not particularly appetizing. How about a bleu cheese and walnut bread? You should be able to find restaurant-sized bags of bleu cheese, and it would be a much nicer bread, it seems to me.

Also, I wouldn't just dump everything into the mixer all at once and expect the bread to be very interesting, especially if you're working with cheese (or anyway, it's not what I'd do). Try adding the cheese at the end of the mix, add a bit at a time and mix sparingly with each addition, just to incorporate the stuff.

Keep us posted.

Edited June 2, 2008 by devlin (log)

[KevinS]

I can probably get by with omitting the sesame seeds. I do need to talk to the guy about the seeds though, because I'm not too crazy about them either, and honestly 1 cup of them in a batch that makes 75 rolls is kind of pointless, especially when he doesn't toast them first to get the oils flowing. Oh and we do add 3/4 of the cheese at the end. The beginning addition is to chop it all up and really work it into the dough, the end is so there are still big bits in there.

As I said before, we aren't bakers and are only making the bread because we're being told to by management. I will try a new mini batch tonight and see how things turn out.

Edited June 2, 2008 by KevinS (log)

[tino27]

Perhaps instead of the sesame seeds, you could use chives instead. A place I worked at did a cheddar and dried chive bread that was very nice. And devlin's point is an interesting one. Any time you add anything "sharp" (meaning rough edges) or fat-based, it will inhibit gluten formation. Giving the gluten a chance to form and then adding those ingredients at the end will ensure both a well developed and a tasty dough.

[KevinS]

Perhaps instead of the sesame seeds, you could use chives instead. A place I worked at did a cheddar and dried chive bread that was very nice. And devlin's point is an interesting one. Any time you add anything "sharp" (meaning rough edges) or fat-based, it will inhibit gluten formation. Giving the gluten a chance to form and then adding those ingredients at the end will ensure both a well developed and a tasty dough.

←

AH HA! This is something we did not think about before! Very interesting point.

[KevinS]

Well my roommates are raving over it. I did ...

2 pounds bread flour

1 tbs salt

1 tsp olive oil (only thing I had on hand)

1 egg

1 packet (1/4 ounce) yeast, activated in 1/2 cup warm water

3 additional cups of water.

7 oz (1 pack from the store) sharp cheddar

I think I went a little overboard on the water. It was just a little too sticky.

I added everything except the cheese to the mixer. And I'll be honest, I just moved so I seem to have lost my 'junky spring scale' (by junky I mean it only weighs up to like 6 ounces...so yeah, was junk) so I had to go by wikipedia saying that 1 pound is around 3.75 cups (yes I'll weight it when I have a scale, PROMISE!). Anywho I added everything except the cheese, one by one, until everything was nice and mixed. I let it rest for about 20 minutes until it got big, then I took the dough out of the bowl and put it on a plastic cutting board and added the cheese and folded it in, taking into consideration the comment about how sharp cheeses can mess with gluten structures early on. Then I let it sit again under a damn towel. Then I formed into rolls, let it sit again (no proofer at home, didn't know what else to do, so I let it sit under a damp towel). Scored, and baked. I baked it on a pizza stone (not really sure why, it just seemed to fit for some reason) at 350 degrees for about 40 minutes. It took a lot longer than I thought it would. I think the temp was too low.

It was definitely better than the stuff we currently make at the place I work, but still not quite what I'm looking for. But right now I think the problem is in my technique for forming the rolls. Anyone have any advice for that? Or a good link perhaps?

Also feel free to comment on my recipe I posted above. I'm sure it can still be made better.

[devlin]

Well my roommates are raving over it. I did ...

2 pounds bread flour

1 tbs salt

1 tsp olive oil (only thing I had on hand)

1 egg

1 packet (1/4 ounce) yeast, activated in 1/2 cup warm water

3 additional cups of water.

7 oz (1 pack from the store) sharp cheddar

I think I went a little overboard on the water. It was just a little too sticky.

I added everything except the cheese to the mixer. And I'll be honest, I just moved so I seem to have lost my 'junky spring scale' (by junky I mean it only weighs up to like 6 ounces...so yeah, was junk) so I had to go by wikipedia saying that 1 pound is around 3.75 cups (yes I'll weight it when I have a scale, PROMISE!). Anywho I added everything except the cheese, one by one, until everything was nice and mixed. I let it rest for about 20 minutes until it got big, then I took the dough out of the bowl and put it on a plastic cutting board and added the cheese and folded it in, taking into consideration the comment about how sharp cheeses can mess with gluten structures early on. Then I let it sit again under a damn towel. Then I formed into rolls, let it sit again (no proofer at home, didn't know what else to do, so I let it sit under a damp towel). Scored, and baked. I baked it on a pizza stone (not really sure why, it just seemed to fit for some reason) at 350 degrees for about 40 minutes. It took a lot longer than I thought it would. I think the temp was too low.

It was definitely better than the stuff we currently make at the place I work, but still not quite what I'm looking for. But right now I think the problem is in my technique for forming the rolls. Anyone have any advice for that? Or a good link perhaps?

Also feel free to comment on my recipe I posted above. I'm sure it can still be made better.

←

Sounds like a good start. Waiting the 20 minutes to add the cheese is a good idea, and in fact that's about how long I wait to add salt and then other ingredients to my own breads.

I like the idea of chives. Or you could use chopped green onions.

A sticky dough is not a bad thing, and in fact if I were you I'd look for a sort of sticky dough. Not so much that you can't take your hand away from the dough without making a mess of your hand, but sticky enough that it, well, feels sort of sticky. You don't want a dry dough. Wetter is better.

About oven temp. Preheat your oven at least 45 mintues to an hour, and I'd go for at least 400 degrees. And that's for rolls. For breads, I bake in my domestic oven at about 475 degrees with a preheated oven an hour in advance at 550.

As for shaping, for rolls, especially maybe cheese rolls, I'd consider shaping them very little, handling them only slightly to get them into shape. Think, maybe, of the way the cheese rolls at Red Lobster restaurant are shaped, which looks as if they're simply pinched off a batch of dough and slapped on a baking pan. And I'm thinking they must come from a very wet batch of dough. And along the same lines, you might consider adding some Italian spices to your dough and then brushing the baked rolls with a melted butter with garlic powder or garlic salt just as they're taken from the oven.

[Tiny]

Glad the rolls are getting there for you!

Here are a couple "cheddar roll" recipes I have floating in my recipe folder from my breads class...(I just cut and pasted these from my "breads" folder, they were written by a german CMB that has a difficult time with english grammar and spelling, so sorry for any errors)

The last recipe is my favorite!

Cheddar & Onion rye

Rye Sour dough (15-24 hours earlier)

Ingredients for the rye sour dough

1 x

Medium rye 160 g

Water 130 g

Rye sour culture 10 g

Total 295 g

1. Prepare the RYE SOUR dough earlier to allow the flavor and aroma as well as the acidity to

develop.

2. Delude the rye culture in the water, than add the rye flour and mix until evenly hydrated.

There will be no gluten development.

3. Store the dough covered overnight at room temperature.

Sour dough; DEF, anstellgut 6.25%, TA; 180, TT: 26 C, RZ: 15-20 Std.

Ingredients for the Final dough

1 x

Bread flour 1920 g

Medium rye 600 g

Sugar 45 g

Salt 65 g

Yeast (dry) 16 g

Veg. Oil 45 g

Molasses 45 g

Water 1480 g

Rye sour 290 g

Cheddar cheese 500 g

Onions 500 g

Total 5506 g

1. Mix the first 9 (nine) ingredients for 4 minutes on slow, and 4 minutes on second speed in the

small spiral mixer.

2. Add the sauted onions and the cheese the last minute of the high speed.

3. Bulk-ferment the dough for 45 minutes in greased tub.

4. Divide the dough into 4# presses and shape round.

5. Bench rest the dough for 15-20 mintues.

6. Shape the dough round either by machine or by hand.

7. Place the dough 4 x 6 per tray.

8. Final fermentation - pan fermentation for 35-40 minutes

9. Finish; score top with one slash, slightly pretzel salt, grated cheddar cheese

Baking time: 14 minutes

Baking temp: 475 F down to 425 F - vent the last two minutes

Steam: Yes

Jalapeno-Cheddar rolls (yields 11 lbs)

Ingredients

Whole Jalapneos chiles 1 1/2 cup

Garlic (peeled) 3 cloves

Pimentos 1/2 can

(drained, chopped - 28 oz can)

Salt 1 oz 30 g

Olive oil 3 oz 85 g

Sugar 3 oz 85 g

Cayenne pepper 1 1/2 tsp ???

Sharp Cheddar cheese 1 # 8 oz 680 g

Bread flour 5 # 2270g

Yeast (instant dry) 1 1/3 oz 38 g

Water 3 # 2oz 1420 g

Method

1. Combine the stemmed jalapenos and peeled garlic cloves int the bowl of a

food processor and process until finely minced. Add the minced chiles and

garlic to the oil, salt, sugar, pimentos and cayenne. Blend well and set aside.

2. Grate the sharp cheddar with a medium or fine blade and set aside.

(Storeing the cheese in the fridge, keeps the cheese firm and will prevent that

the cheese dissolves into the dough, while blending dough and cheese)

3. Combine the yeast and water and stir briefly to disperse the yeast. Add the

bread flour and chile mixture. Whenthe dry ingredients have been moistened,

switch the mixer to medium speed and knead until a smooth, elastic dough forms,

6-8 minutes, adding bread flou or water as needed to adjust the dough.

4. Add the grated cheddar and continue kneading until the cheese is well incorporated.

Pull the dough immediately, divide into 4 pound pieces, and divide the pieces with

the dough divider into 36 equal pieces. Roll up each small piece and place it 8 x 12

on the sheet pan. Store the rolls in the freezer and take out by demand.

5. Let rolls proof up and egg-wash the rolls and bake them at 350 F (without steam,

due to the egg-wash) for15-18 minutes oruntil golden brown. Allow the rolls to cool slightly

before serving.

Notes:

This is a spicy bread with a Southwestern accent. It may be less spicy by substituting

bell peppers ans paprika for the jalapenos and cayenne. Also, try a smoked cheddar cheese

for an interesting variation.

this recipe creates a very rich dough, which accounts for the unususal proofing method.

because of the fat content, the dough will not tolerate more than one rise; therefore, the dough

is scaled and shaped right from the mixer. It it is given successive proofs, the texture will be

cake-like and the volume of the rolls will be much less than desired.

The final texture and appearance of the rolls should be round with a spongy crumb that as

a nice "bite". The dough (and crumb) will be light orange with flecks of green jalapeno and red

pimento throughout.

If the use of canned pimentos present a problem, substitute three large red bell peppers for

each large (28 oz) can of pimentos.

A note on timing: this bread undegoes a single, short, indidvidual fermentation. It is on of the

of the quickest yeasted breads from mixer to oven in the baker's repetoire.

Consequently, it should be the last bread mixed in any series of bread in

which it is included.

Jalapeno-Cheddar Sour Dough

Ingredients for the Wheat Sour (Starter)

Bread flour 1500 g

Water 900 g

Culture 300 g

Total 2700 g

Wheat Sour dough (15-24 hours earlier)

1. Prepare the Wheat Sour dough 15-24 hours earlier to allow the flavor and aroma as well

as the acidity to develop.

2. Delude the Wheat Sour dough in the water, than add the wheat flour and mix until

evenly hydrated. There will be no gluten development.

3. Store the dough covered overnight at room temperature.

Variation:

Jalapeno (diced) 400 g

Cheddar Cheese (cubed) 1200 g

Total 1600 g

Handling of Cheese

Cheeses will be added after the desired dough consistency is reached.

Keep the cheese as long as possible in the refrigerator to keep the cheese firm.

Keeping the cheese at room temperature for to long, will cause the cheeses to soften

and to dissolve easily into the dough.

Also after the addition of the cheeses keep the mixing to a minimum to prevent the

dissolving of the cheeses into the dough as well.

Final dough

HighGluten Flour 3920 g

Salt 90 g

Water 2400 g

Wheat Sour (Starter) 1200 g

Sub-Total 7610 g

Jalapeno (diced) 400 g

Cheddar Cheese (cubed) 1200 g

Total 9210 g

Method

1. Mix a dough out of the first five ingredients. Assure that the dough is developed to a stage, so

that you can "pull" a fine membrane out of one piece of dough.

2. Add the diced Jalapenos and contiue mixing the dough until all the "peppers" are evenly

mixed into the dough.

3. Continue by mixing the cheddar cheese at the end under the dough, just until evenly dispersed.

4. Let the dough rest for about 3-4 hours, before scaling the dough into the desired weight.

Fold the dough over every 60 minutes.

5. Pre-shape the dough round.

6. Allow an additional bench rest by letting the dough proof for about 10-15 minutes on the talbe.

7. Give the final shape and store the dough in a basket or couche (linen-cloth)

8. Proof the dough to the desire volume (or store overnight in the refrigerator).

Ideal would be a temperature of 50-55F/10-13C

9. Bake the dough at 450F/235C for about 30-35 minutes.

Cheddar-Green Onion Roll-ins

Yields 15 lbs dough (plus 4 lbs cheddar & 3 bunches green onion)

Ingredients Amount

Water (room temp) 3# 8 oz

Eggs 15 oz

Oil 1 #

Sugar 8 oz

Bread flour 4 #

High-Gluten flour 3 #

Potato flour (or rice flour) 13 z

Non fat frey milk powder 8 1/2 oz

toasted sesame seeds 5 oz

Yeast (inst. Dry) 1 1/2 oz

Salt 2 oz

Cheddar ch. sharp (med.dice) 4 #

Green onion (coarse chopped) 3 bchs

Additional: Egg wash, garlic butter, raw sesame seeds

Method

1. Add the water, eggs, oil and sugar into a 20-quart mixing bowl and blend well.

2. Combine the remaining ingredients (with the exception of the cheddar and green onions) and add

to the wet ingredients. First mix on slow speed. When the dries are moistenend, switch the

mixer to medium speed and knead until a smooth elastic dough has formed, about 8-10 minutes.

Use water or bread flour to adjust the dough, as needed.

3. Divide the dough into two equal pieces and bench rest the pieces on a floured tabletop, covered,

for 30 minutes. Sheet the rested dough pieces to a thickness of 1/2 inch and brush thoroughly

with egg wash.

4. Sprinkle the diced cheddar and chopped green onions evenly over the sheeted an egg washed

doughs. Beginning with the longest edges, roll each dough toward you to form a cylinder (like

a jellyroll). Carefully seal the cylinders by pinching the dough together along the seams.

5. Cut the cylinders into 2-inch lengths and place the pieces, cut-side up, staggered, staggered on

a regular parchment-lined sheetpan. With your palm, press each cut piece onto the parchment

to flatten it. Allow the loaves to proof until 3/4 proofed

6. Egg wash the loaves just before baking and sprinkle with raw sesame seeds. Bake at 350 F for

15 - 20 minutes. Brush the loaves with garlic butter immediately after removing them from the

oven.

Edited June 3, 2008 by Tiny (log)

[KevinS]

Oh bother. That last recipe looks great, except now it made me realize that there is a difference between high gluten flour and bread flour. I asked the current 'baker' at work that and he said he uses them interchangeably!

[Tiny]

High gluten flour is basically bread flour with extra gluten added....think pizza dough, bagels or pretzels....For rolls, I'd rather use bread flour or even AP flour rather than high gluten....the last recipe I posted uses a combo of both, and the result is sorta like a cheddar and onion pizza roll without the sauce...

[judec]

It was definitely better than the stuff we currently make at the place I work, but still not quite what I'm looking for. But right now I think the problem is in my technique for forming the rolls. Anyone have any advice for that? Or a good link perhaps?

←

The hydration of your dough is 87.5%... That's really slack so your shaping options are really limited.

I would stretch the dough out on a heavily floured counter and use a bench scraper or blunt edge to cut off rectangular pieces. Cut carefully so that you're pinching to seal the edges instead of making a clean cut.