Decoding the Michelin Guide: What do

[robyn]

I recently got the 2008 edition of the Michelin Guide to Paris. Many of the restaurant descriptions say Menu X euros bi. BC means house wine included but I can't find what "bi" means. The only thing that came to mind is "bread included" - but that doesn't sound right to me. Does anyone know the key to this code? Robyn

[ameiden]

Boissons inclus = Drinks included.

[robyn]

Thanks. I assume the drink is something like coffee or tea - not wine - or water (the water can cost more than the wine!). BTW - is it at all acceptable today to ask for "tap water" in Paris (I doubt it - but figured there's no harm asking)? Robyn

[pierre45]

Thanks.  I assume the drink is something like coffee or tea - not wine - or water (the water can cost more than the wine!).  BTW - is it at all acceptable today to ask for "tap water" in Paris (I doubt it - but figured there's no harm asking)?  Robyn

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IN most Paris restaurants I ask for chateau de seine(tap water) In a carafe.

NO problem what so ever.Its usually chilled.

Incidentally I Have conducted blind water tasting .Its very hard to discern any difference in non carbonated water by most people.

[John Talbott]

Thanks.  I assume the drink is something like coffee or tea - not wine - or water (the water can cost more than the wine!).  BTW - is it at all acceptable today to ask for "tap water" in Paris (I doubt it - but figured there's no harm asking)?  Robyn

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It depends. Goumard Prunier used to include wine, bottled water and coffee in their "menu."

chateau de seine

And here I thought it was Chateau Delanoye.

[robyn]

Thanks.  I assume the drink is something like coffee or tea - not wine - or water (the water can cost more than the wine!).  BTW - is it at all acceptable today to ask for "tap water" in Paris (I doubt it - but figured there's no harm asking)?  Robyn

←

IN most Paris restaurants I ask for chateau de seine(tap water) In a carafe.

NO problem what so ever.Its usually chilled.

Incidentally I Have conducted blind water tasting .Its very hard to discern any difference in non carbonated water by most people.

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Thanks for the great information! The only reason I drink water with meals is to stay hydrated. I do not need a water sommelier . And - after sightseeing - particularly if the weather is warm - my husband and I can drink an awful lot of water (in Germany - my husband tended to hydrate with beer - which was kind of a bad idea ). Anyway - if we order normal drinks - like wine and spirits - it is nice to know that we won't get fishy looks if we also order "Chateau de Seine" . BTW - I live in northeast Florida - close to the Georgia border - and a lot of tap water here - even from city water systems - is very high on sulfur content. IOW - it stinks! So I'm sure that Paris tap water will be more than ok in my book. Robyn

[robyn]

Another slightly OT question - although it is about the Michelin Guide. The Paris edition in English only lists restaurants that have at least one knife and fork (and maybe not even all of the restaurants with 1 and 2 knives and forks). I am kind of used to the old Michelin guides that list all restaurants. Is there any Michelin Guide that covers Paris (in French or English) that still does that (we don't get a lot of these guides in our local bookstores - so I order them sight unseen on Amazon)? I don't want to restrict myself to the 350 restaurants listed in the Paris guide (I suspect there are a lot more than 350 restaurants in Paris!). Robyn

[PhilD]

Another slightly OT question - although it is about the Michelin Guide.  The Paris edition in English only lists restaurants that have at least one knife and fork (and maybe not even all of the restaurants with 1 and 2 knives and forks).  I am kind of used to the old Michelin guides that list all restaurants.  Is there any Michelin Guide that covers Paris (in French or English) that still does that (we don't get a lot of these guides in our local bookstores - so I order them sight unseen on Amazon)?  I don't want to restrict myself to the 350 restaurants listed in the Paris guide (I suspect there are a lot more than 350 restaurants in Paris!).  Robyn

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I wasn't aware that Michelin ever listed "all" the restaurants. It only lists those that that it's inspectors consider to be the "best in every category of comfort and price".

I am sure you know this but the knives and forks are an indication of a "pleasant restaurant" i.e. one with good decor, service, etc. It doesn't indicate the quality of food. Food quality is indicated by either a bib or the stars. Thus a nice place with good food will have a bib/star and some crossed knives and forks.

[Dave Hatfield]

Thanks.  I assume the drink is something like coffee or tea - not wine - or water (the water can cost more than the wine!).  BTW - is it at all acceptable today to ask for "tap water" in Paris (I doubt it - but figured there's no harm asking)?  Robyn

←

It depends. Goumard Prunier used to include wine, bottled water and coffee in their "menu."

chateau de seine

And here I thought it was Chateau Delanoye.

←

Gee & I thought it was d'eau robinet. Or just plain robinet for short.

[42390]

Another slightly OT question - although it is about the Michelin Guide.  The Paris edition in English only lists restaurants that have at least one knife and fork (and maybe not even all of the restaurants with 1 and 2 knives and forks).  I am kind of used to the old Michelin guides that list all restaurants.  Is there any Michelin Guide that covers Paris (in French or English) that still does that (we don't get a lot of these guides in our local bookstores - so I order them sight unseen on Amazon)?  I don't want to restrict myself to the 350 restaurants listed in the Paris guide (I suspect there are a lot more than 350 restaurants in Paris!).  Robyn

←

I wasn't aware that Michelin ever listed "all" the restaurants. It only lists those that that it's inspectors consider to be the "best in every category of comfort and price".

I am sure you know this but the knives and forks are an indication of a "pleasant restaurant" i.e. one with good decor, service, etc. It doesn't indicate the quality of food. Food quality is indicated by either a bib or the stars. Thus a nice place with good food will have a bib/star and some crossed knives and forks.

←

Michelin reformatted their Paris Red Guide 2 or 3 years ago. Prior to that there were only short cryptic entries for each restaurant and there seemed to be a lot more entries than now. Now there are only one or two entries per page with lengthy descriptions. I have not actually counted up the number of entries in the 2008 Paris guide versus the 2001, for instance, edition but I am sure it has been cut down quite a bit.

[PhilD]

Another slightly OT question - although it is about the Michelin Guide.  The Paris edition in English only lists restaurants that have at least one knife and fork (and maybe not even all of the restaurants with 1 and 2 knives and forks).  I am kind of used to the old Michelin guides that list all restaurants.  Is there any Michelin Guide that covers Paris (in French or English) that still does that (we don't get a lot of these guides in our local bookstores - so I order them sight unseen on Amazon)?  I don't want to restrict myself to the 350 restaurants listed in the Paris guide (I suspect there are a lot more than 350 restaurants in Paris!).  Robyn

←

I wasn't aware that Michelin ever listed "all" the restaurants. It only lists those that that it's inspectors consider to be the "best in every category of comfort and price".

I am sure you know this but the knives and forks are an indication of a "pleasant restaurant" i.e. one with good decor, service, etc. It doesn't indicate the quality of food. Food quality is indicated by either a bib or the stars. Thus a nice place with good food will have a bib/star and some crossed knives and forks.

←

Michelin reformatted their Paris Red Guide 2 or 3 years ago. Prior to that there were only short cryptic entries for each restaurant and there seemed to be a lot more entries than now. Now there are only one or two entries per page with lengthy descriptions. I have not actually counted up the number of entries in the 2008 Paris guide versus the 2001, for instance, edition but I am sure it has been cut down quite a bit.

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My quick count of the restaurants rated for food gives 109 in Paris (9 x 3 star, 15 x 2 star, 38 x 1 star, and 50 x bib). Assume the other 241 from the 350 in the guide (in the OP) are there for good decor, service etc. It seems to be a reasonable number/ratio.

I can't imagine the number of restaurants rated for food in Paris has declined substantially over the last decade.

I used the '08 press release which I read alongside my '06 France guide which seems to work quite well.

[follonica2]

Thanks.  I assume the drink is something like coffee or tea - not wine - or water (the water can cost more than the wine!).  BTW - is it at all acceptable today to ask for "tap water" in Paris (I doubt it - but figured there's no harm asking)?  Robyn

←

It depends. Goumard Prunier used to include wine, bottled water and coffee in their "menu."

chateau de seine

And here I thought it was Chateau Delanoye.

←

Gee & I thought it was d'eau robinet. Or just plain robinet for short.

←

Une carafe d'eau works for me.

[robyn]

Une carafe d'eau works for me.

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That seems to be an ok way to order (it is mentioned in Edible Aventures in Paris) - and even I can remember it. And that's really useful information about water in general. I will gladly pay money for a lot of things - but (usually expensive) bottled water at a restaurant isn't one of them.

42390 - You're describing the Michelin Guide the way I remember it. Hundreds or thousands of very brief entries with essentials like addresses - phone numbers - hours - prices - style of food - stars and knives and forks (if any) - and some other misc. icons (like the one for a good view). Guess that format is defunct. No big deal - it was much more useful in places other than large cities (like when you're on the road looking for a place to eat lunch). I think part of the fun of a large city is poking around on foot and exploring - and stumbling on places. I am sure that no matter what - we won't starve .

PhilD - I know what knives and forks are supposed to mean technically. But I've found that a place with one knife and fork is apt to have pretty good food - not "star quality" food - but good eats. Robyn

[42390]

I looked through my 2003 Red Guide (Paris only version) last night. The 2003 guide was still in the old format. There were 412 restaurant entries in Paris proper (with even more listed in the environs section) that year including the stars and bibs so they have cut down the number of restaurant entries quite a bit. The number of hotel entries is way way lower now than with the old format.

[Paul Kondeff]

Another slightly OT question - although it is about the Michelin Guide.  The Paris edition in English only lists restaurants that have at least one knife and fork (and maybe not even all of the restaurants with 1 and 2 knives and forks).  I am kind of used to the old Michelin guides that list all restaurants.  Is there any Michelin Guide that covers Paris (in French or English) that still does that (we don't get a lot of these guides in our local bookstores - so I order them sight unseen on Amazon)?  I don't want to restrict myself to the 350 restaurants listed in the Paris guide (I suspect there are a lot more than 350 restaurants in Paris!).  Robyn

←

I wasn't aware that Michelin ever listed "all" the restaurants. It only lists those that that it's inspectors consider to be the "best in every category of comfort and price".

I am sure you know this but the knives and forks are an indication of a "pleasant restaurant" i.e. one with good decor, service, etc. It doesn't indicate the quality of food. Food quality is indicated by either a bib or the stars. Thus a nice place with good food will have a bib/star and some crossed knives and forks.

←

Michelin reformatted their Paris Red Guide 2 or 3 years ago. Prior to that there were only short cryptic entries for each restaurant and there seemed to be a lot more entries than now. Now there are only one or two entries per page with lengthy descriptions. I have not actually counted up the number of entries in the 2008 Paris guide versus the 2001, for instance, edition but I am sure it has been cut down quite a bit.

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It was about 2-3 years ago that the Via Michelin website changed its format also. It was much more user friendly. If you wanted to change the neighborhood you were searching in you just needed to drag the map and click to a new center then click again for the restaurants nearby. You could even filter the search for only bibs, stars or whatever. Now their mission seems to be to get you to book a hotel through them so they can collect a fee. Maybe that is why they list fewer hotels in the Red Guide, so there will be more room for others on the website?

I find the opinions in this forum, and some of the posters blogs, to be more dependable than Michelin’s. I mostly use the Red Guide, or the web site, to check opening hours and phone numbers. With Pudlo now available in English it could take Michelin’s place even for that.

[robyn]

I looked through my 2003 Red Guide (Paris only version) last night. The 2003 guide was still in the old format. There were 412 restaurant entries in Paris proper (with even more listed in the environs section) that year including the stars and bibs so they have cut down the number of restaurant entries quite a bit. The number of hotel entries is way way lower now than with the old format.

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I recommend Flyertalk for information about hotels (and air travel and frequent guest programs). There are thousands of friendly knowledgeable participants - including me - and over a million messages - about everything from youth hostels to 5 star luxury places.

Four hundred restaurants doesn't sound like a lot. Perhaps Paris is smaller than I remember - or I am jaded by visiting cities like Berlin (large) and Tokyo (huge) in the last couple of years. In any event - I am never adverse to getting off the beaten path. In my recent reading - it seemed like we'd be able to find good Vietnamese food in Paris (we have exactly zero Vietnamese restaurants where I live - so I doubt I will be the world's pickiest eater when it comes to Vietnamese cuisine - I will probably be content with places which don't meet Michelin standards). Robyn

[julot-les-pinceaux]

I recently got the 2008 edition of the Michelin Guide to Paris.  Many of the restaurant descriptions say Menu X euros bi.  BC means house wine included but I can't find what "bi" means.  The only thing that came to mind is "bread included" - but that doesn't sound right to me.  Does anyone know the key to this code?  Robyn

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May I ask where you saw that "bi" mention? bc is boissons comprises, which means wine, and sometimes water and coffee. It does not have to be house wine, which is rarer and rarer. For instance the menu with wine pairing at l'Astrance is 270 bc. But bi I just never saw.

[robyn]

The "bi" is next to the prices of a large number of restaurants. For example - the Astrance listing says Menu 70 euros (lunch), 190/290 euros bi. The "bc" you mentioned is listed in the "How to Use This Guide" as meaning "house wine included". So I guess "bi" means beverages included in the English version (as opposed to "bc" in the French) - and it's up to you to figure out whether you're talking about a cup of coffee - or a a 5 course wine pairing (although the price should give you a big clue).

BTW - I just got an email touting the new Zagat guide for Paris - and it has 1000 restaurant listings. So it might be a better "walking around when you're looking for a casual lunch place" guide than Michelin. Robyn

[julot-les-pinceaux]

My Michelin has l'Astrance 270bc -- maybe bi is just the English version of bc. Then I have to ask where have you seen bc in your guide?

Beverage will never be a cup of coffee in France. It will always mean wine. Indeed at l'Astrance it means sophisticated wine pairing, and at Robuchon it means a choice half a bottle of one red or one white (pretty decent but simple and one-size fits all). And of course the price gives you a clue.

The places where bc means sophisticated wine pairing can probably be counted on the fingers of one hand. L'Astrance and Il Vino are the only ones I can mention.

Zagat is nice but not very reliable. What it actually indicates is places that are easy or have a fan club. Even so, no Paris guide is comprehensive, it is always a selection.

Edited May 17, 2008 by julot-les-pinceaux (log)

[PhilD]

- and it has 1000 restaurant listings.  So it might be a better "walking around when you're looking for a casual lunch place" guide than Michelin.  Robyn

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Are you looking for a critical restaurant guide or simply a listing of restaurants? (Pages Jaune is pretty good for that.) I am certain there are a 1,000 restaurants in Paris that could be listed, but are they all of a quality that makes them worth listing? I would be suspicious about quality control with a list that long.

I personally cross reference a number of sources when I select restaurants, I find the combination of guides and the web quite useful. Michelin as the foundation and blogs for the colour - although you need to ensure the reviewers on the web have the depth and breadth of experience (postings) that makes them knowledgeable and thus relevant, and you need to make certain they share your taste.

Michelin reviews and assesses lots of restaurants to come down to the 100 or so in Paris that they believe meet their food standards. Plus they rate a further 200 to 300 as restaurants of with nice decor, historical significance etc. To me 100+ restaurants, with good food, in a city (especially quite a small one like Paris) seems to be pretty good. London in comparison has about 60.

You also mention your memory of the old Michelin guide having "hundreds or thousands of very brief entries" - are you confusing the Paris guide with the Guide to France? The France guide has approx. 1,800 pages with roughly 10 entries per page. This would give you the thousands you refer to.

[robyn]

The bc is in the front pages of the English Michelin Guide to Paris - how to read the entries. I think there was simply a proof-reading error when translating from French to English - the front of the guide should have said "bi" instead of "bc".

I use Zagat's like I would use the "yellow pages" telephone book. Simply a guide to where places are. Then I look at the place in person - the menu - and decide what to do. A guide with a lot of restaurants like Zagat's is particularly useful when I am in a particular part of a big city and simply looking for an ok place to eat lunch (without traveling across town). It tells me about a places that may be close - but I otherwise wouldn't find on my own. For "big deal" meals - I do a lot more research and almost always make reservations. I have a medium size back pack - and a small camera - so both Zagat's and Michelin will probably go in the back pack!

Frankly - I haven't been to France for about 20 years - so I can't remember whether I was thinking of the Michelin Guide to France - or Paris - or perhaps the Michelin Guide to large European cities. I suspect we will do a lot of "bar bell" dining in Paris - big deal restaurants on one side of the bar bell - and much lesser and lighter meals on the other side of the bar bell. Better than spending a lot of money for mediocre expensive meals in the middle. Robyn

[robyn]

I just got my 2008-09 Zagat's guide. It covers a *lot" more restaurants than Michelin. The ratings of the "top tables" are similar to those in Michelin. OTOH - it lists a fair number of newer restaurants not found in Michelin. On the third hand - there are a lot of listed restaurants that are fairly expensive but poorly rated - exactly the kind of places I would like to avoid lunching at only because they're convenient. Sometimes a guide is as important in terms of telling you what to avoid as it is in terms of telling you what to try.

Also - I like the writing style - like this statement about a restaurant I won't name: "Service would have to improve to be indifferent". Anyway - for the $11-12 or so I spent to buy the book - half the price of a martini at a high class bar in Paris - I am not disappointed with my purchase. Robyn