When is enough too much

[robyn]

...Conversely (and that's a bigger deal for me), I think exceptional traditional places like Rostang or Bocuse tend to be overlooked because of our food habits --- old style food is better enjoyed when one is actually hungry. When was the last time that happened already?

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Funny that you should mention that. Our "food teacher" in France had strict "eating rules" on days when we have having high end dinners. Very light meal mid-day. No snacks. No alcohol until we got to a restaurant except perhaps for an aperitif at the hotel bar before leaving for dinner. Wasn't hard for me to follow the food rules (I don't eat breakfast at home - and am always starved for lunch - which is more or less dinner time in Europe - takes me a long time to get over jet lag) - although I did like to have a cocktail or two before dinner. So I usually got to these restaurants really hungry - and ready to have a great meal. And that's still the way I eat when I go to Europe.

FWIW - I can't understand why someone would want to go to an expensive restaurant where the dishes are - even according to people who like the restaurant - hit or miss - like Gagnaire. I like to go to a place where I have a reasonable expectation that everything will be wonderful. Is it just a desire to experiment? I can understand that on some level. I tried a lot of things in Japan that I had never eaten before just to try them. A lot were - to someone from the west - kind of odd (the Japanese are frequently much more interested in the texture of a food than how it tastes). OTOH - we never spent huge amounts of money on meals that we did not expect to enjoy 100%. To me - that would be like spending a huge amount of money on a pair of shoes that will be out of fashion in 3 months - and are uncomfortable as well. Robyn

[roosterchef21]

So what do you think an average person could handle over a 4 week period? One or two 2-3 stars a week? Or more? Despite the obvious financial constraints.....

[Bu Pun Su]

In general I think we can't trust a bad review unless it is based on facts -- say faulty cooking, ingredient or service. Moreover, I think that the one who enjoys a place is always more right than the one who does not.

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If not mistaken, you mentioned Lasserre somewhere as a nice 2-star place in Paris. Could you tell us more about that? I thought it's just a piece of history now like La Tour d'Argent

I heard that the chef - Nomicos is also quite talented in classical French cuisine, no?

Thanks

[julot-les-pinceaux]

Nomicos is a good chef (despite being a Ducasse boy). Lasserre is a good place, with some very good dishes and a very special experience. It's not a place tha will change what you know abut food, but you might have a very pleasant, very special evening. Check their website, it does a great job at showing what they do and how they are.

[Dave Hatfield]

So what do you think an average person could handle over a 4 week period? One or two 2-3 stars a week? Or more? Despite the obvious financial constraints.....

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Here's my personal take on this. I'm assuming that the 4 weeks are a trip, you're not at home.

If the trip is all hotel stays then I would limit the 2-3 stars to one a week. My logic being that you are perforce eating in restaurants all day every day so the overload factor is harder to avoid.

If you are staying somewhere where you can cook as & if you want then I'd up my 2-3 star experiences to two a week. You can better control your intake when you can cook for yourself.

We also tend to make out 2-3 star experiences occur at lunch when we're staying in one place for some time. We do dinners more when we're on the move between places more frequently. Lunches are our preference for our main meal, but the logistics of travel make them difficult.

I'm ignoring finance and assuming that you're in places that have an adequate supply of 2-3 star quality restaurants.

Purely personally we always try to stay/ rent somewhere we can cook. Going to the markets, buying the food, talking to the locals then cooking & eating the bounty give us as much pleasure as going to the 2-3 stars. The stars become more special when they are less frequent IMHO.

[Busboy]

I'd like to throw in another thought.

I've never been burdened by the ability to afford 12 stars in 4 days, which seems to bring great angst to some people (which 4? how to get reservations? What if have to eat at a place with a mediocre wine list?) - though my wife and I are saving our pennies and praying for the Euro to crash. But, in addition to the reasons cited by Dave up top, I wouldn't want to do a trip like that (and don't when I travel to NY or California) because I don't think I'm getting a real feel for the place or the food. It's running about in a rarefied and increasingly internationalized culinary ether which, while extraordinary, isn't really Paris (or New York, or San Francisco). Or rather, it's really only part of the blind men's elephant, and focusing on that denies you the simpler but equally important delights of discovering a perfectly cooked sausage at a simple cafe or picnic assembled with painstaking delight along a market street and eaten beneath the Tour Eiffel with a bottle or three of plonk.

If all or most of your time is spent in starred establishments, you see restaurants but not the city itself so much, and the way the people there really live. Food becomes an end, when it is even more delightful as a means to a broader discovery. I find few things more wonderful than breakfast in a bar-tabac or an 20 minutes in line at the boulangerie. Makes me feel like I'm in France.

(Not that I'm not going to hit a 3-star soon as that Euro gets back to $1.25. Two if it hits $1.10. )

[julot-les-pinceaux]

There's no question that top restaurants are not all of a place, even Paris.

But I think that your statement that they are not the real Paris is excessive. What's going on is that indeed a few of them are basically reserved for some international jetset, especially the ones in Palace. They are not only not rooted in the city, they also have some international harmonisation/standardisation going. But in Paris, many top restaurants are not of that breed. L'Ambroisie, l'Arpège, even Savoy somehow, Gérard Besson for instance are Parisian treasures.

[robyn]

So what do you think an average person could handle over a 4 week period? One or two 2-3 stars a week? Or more? Despite the obvious financial constraints.....

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I would think no more than 2 a week for a short trip (like a week). But - as others have pointed out - over the course of a 4 week trip - perhaps fewer. A lot depends on travel plans (will you be in one place - on the road - etc.). If you're on the road - and there are places you really want to dine at - you might wind up with 2 great meals a few days apart. If you're staying in one place for 4 weeks - you can obviously space things out a lot more.

As for top restaurants not having a "sense of place" - I think that some do - and some don't - no matter what city (or town) you're talking about. For example - you can have "high end international food" in London - or "modern British" food. When you get to a city like Tokyo - you can get high end sushi in a hole in the wall with 12 stools - or high end French in a place that looks like it's in Paris. And both cities have many other cuisines. I generally like restaurants that specialize in food that has a "sense of place" - but - since I don't live in a major city - I don't mind "high end international food" now and then either when I do get to a big city. And if you want to get really philosophical about it - curry shops are very English - they're where lots of local people eat lots of food. Japan has an entire local cuisine based on its adaptations of "foreign" food (it tends to use western ingredients like corn and mayonnaise in ways that are very strange to western palates). IMO - when it comes to eating and travel - there are "no rules - just right" (for those not familiar with the phrase - it's the advertising slogan of Outback Steakhouse - a chain restaurant) - except maybe for people who just want to eat at McDonald's and KFC (although they seem to be very popular outside the US not only with US tourists - but with locals too).

If you want to travel with a sense of place - sometimes it's fun to learn what the best local seasonal ingredients are when you'll be somewhere (even cheeses have their seasons). And then try them every which way in all kinds of places (low end to high end). When we were in Germany last year - it was spargel (white asparagus) season. Spargel is a national obsession in Germany. So I had spargel every which way in all kinds of restaurants. I had good spargel - very good spargel - and great spargel. And one terrible spargel (on a train). The last made me realize it is possible to screw up just about anything . Robyn

[roosterchef21]

Not for a trip. I figured 1 month is a good number to go with just to see what opinions are. It's not too short (like a week) and not too long (Like 3 months)!

[plafield]

Nomicos is a good chef (despite being a Ducasse boy). Lasserre is a good place, with some very good dishes and a very special experience. It's not a place tha will change what you know abut food, but you might have a very pleasant, very special evening. Check their website, it does a great job at showing what they do and how they are.

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Lasserre offers a 75 E lunch menu. Do you think this is a good value for what they offer? I'm wondering if this might be a decent choice as a substitute for lunch at Les Elysees if the chef moves on to Le Cinque. How far in advance does one need to make reservation for lunch or dinner at Lasserre?

[Bu Pun Su]

The dining room looks beautiful

I think you would have a good meal and experience there as long as you don't demand a very innovative/contemporary French cuisine

And if in the lunch menu, you could try their famous macaroni and pigeon, it should be a good deal

So is it confirmed that Briffard will no longer in Vernet by end of Spring or early summer this year?

Edited April 15, 2008 by Bu Pun Su (log)

[julot-les-pinceaux]

Lasserre offers a 75 E lunch menu. Do you think this is a good value for what they offer? I'm wondering if this might be a decent choice as a substitute for lunch at Les Elysees if the chef moves on to Le Cinque. How far in advance does one need to make reservation for lunch or dinner at Lasserre?

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What a picture! Congratulations!

I wouldn't call Lasserre a substitute for les Elysées, because it is at the same time somewhat fancier and not as impressive a cuisine -- but it is a good place for a nice lunch, and as BPS says, gives you access to their specialties, and to the incredible restaurant itself. I would say that it is more "tous publics" whereas les Elysées is more a place for us food nerds.

[HOLLY_L]

I had lunch at Apicius today, and had a discussion with one of the servers about how many of the people seemed to be Parisian or at least French. He said most/many of their patrons were indeed French, and it's not that they don't welcome overseas visitors, but, if I understood correctly, that they save some of their tables for reservations a week or couple weeks ahead of time. So at any rate, the restaurant is indeed a look at a certain segment of Parisian life, and it's very much more Parisian-oriented than some of the other starred establishments I have visited. I actually did not see any other English speakers in my section of the dining room (approximately 6 other tables). That may not be surprising since it's not a restaurant that gets a lot of play here or on other anglophone websites I have seen.

(By the way - I thought the food was excellent, and although not inexpensive, reasonably good value. I have the best of intentions to write it up with my pictures eventually, so that other English speakers will visit!)

[Busboy]

There's no question that top restaurants are not all of a place, even Paris.

But I think that your statement that they are not the real Paris is excessive. What's going on is that indeed a few of them are basically reserved for some international jetset, especially the ones in Palace. They are not only not rooted in the city, they also have some international harmonisation/standardisation going. But in Paris, many top restaurants are not of that breed. L'Ambroisie, l'Arpège, even Savoy somehow, Gérard Besson for instance are Parisian treasures.

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Admittedly, I might have exaggerated for effect for a second -- though I wonder if you transported "French" 3-star in New York to Paris and a Parisian 3-star to New York, and let them macerate for a year or so, how each would change.

My larger point was that I do think you miss much of the soul of a city if you cloister yourself in grand hotels and multi-starred restaurants; that the question "when is enough too much" is philosophical, as much as a physiological question. I see posts on eGullet -- not only about Paris, but other great cities -- that make me wonder why the poster has left themselves so little time to walk along the river and eat sandwiches at a cafe.

[Dave Hatfield]

There's no question that top restaurants are not all of a place, even Paris.

But I think that your statement that they are not the real Paris is excessive. What's going on is that indeed a few of them are basically reserved for some international jetset, especially the ones in Palace. They are not only not rooted in the city, they also have some international harmonisation/standardisation going. But in Paris, many top restaurants are not of that breed. L'Ambroisie, l'Arpège, even Savoy somehow, Gérard Besson for instance are Parisian treasures.

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Admittedly, I might have exaggerated for effect for a second -- though I wonder if you transported "French" 3-star in New York to Paris and a Parisian 3-star to New York, and let them macerate for a year or so, how each would change.

My larger point was that I do think you miss much of the soul of a city if you cloister yourself in grand hotels and multi-starred restaurants; that the question "when is enough too much" is philosophical, as much as a physiological question.

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I'm loving this discussion. Very pleased that my point, philosophical, was well taken.

Where lies the culinary soul of a city? Nation? Culture? No easy answers, but I am so pleased that my fellow eGulleteers are prepared to attempt answers.

Roll on with your opinions, the more the better.