NYC Wine Bars 2008

[Fat Guy]

With recent wine-bar-ish concepts from Daniel Boulud (Bar Boulud) and Alain Ducasse (Adour), a forthcoming venture from Paul Grieco (Terroir), plenty of buzz about Monday Room, and other examples I'm sure, it seems New York City's wine bars are getting not just more plentiful but also more ambitious. I haven't been to any of the new crop (though I plan to go to several of them soon in the course of researching an article), but I think overall it's good that New York City is upping it's game in this regard. I've long envied the wine-bar cultures of European cities, not to mention San Francisco. We've had 'inoteca and a few other good places for awhile, but New York City has felt like a third-tier wine-bar city for too long.

Any thoughts on the wine-bar phenomenon? Suggestions for best wine bars? Which ones have food that's worthwhile?

I was hoping that, in the process of having this discussion, we could also generate a wine-bar list and perhaps narrow the parameters for what is and isn't a wine bar.

[Nathan]

well, it's certainly possible to dispute whether either of Adour or Bar Boulud are wine bars...(I'm not taking a side...yet).

places like Centro Vinoteca (if you're sitting downstairs and ordering piccolini) or Otto.

and Monday Room has much more adventurous food than traditional wine bars.

traditional wine bars of note:

Ino, Inoteca, the unnamed wine bar below Peasant, Gottino, Bar Jamon, the Blue Ribbon Wine Bar, 8th Street Cellar, Noble Wine Bar, Wined Up, The Room/Another Room/The Other Room (they don't serve food though).

then there's a variety of neigborhood favorites which are charming but don't have very good lists...places like Epistrophy or Turks & Frogs.

[Fat Guy]

I guess to that list I'd add a some uptown places: On the East Side, Bar @ Etats-Unis (which I utilize for casual meetings in the neighborhood) and Taste. On the West Side, Bin 71 and Barcibo.

Back in the rest of the city, I've heard some okay comments about 8th Street Winecellar but don't have a feel for the place. Same with Vinovino. There's also Enoteca I Trulli. And that Flute place -- they have a couple of locations.

I wonder, does Craftbar qualifty? I've just barely started thinking about criteria.

[Nathan]

I don't recall much about the Craftbar list.

good call on I Trulli's Enoteca.

not a fan of Flute.

[Fat Guy]

There's also Morrell -- they have a pretty swell list and the food was quite good when I went there. I haven't been to Vintage New York WineBar, but it seems like a potentially interesting spot.

Bar Room at The Modern -- just noting it as a data point to help with delimiting the category.

[Nathan]

Vintage is just a tasting room for Long Island wines...

[weinoo]

Who can forget Tony Goldman's Soho Kitchen and Wine Bar - which was the prototypical wine bar with the fancy storage system - alas, no longer alive.

In Vino on E. 4th (and there is another place just up the block - name escapes me).

Cacio e vino on 2nd Ave. has a nice selection of Italians by the glass. More a restaurant though.

Divine Bar. Bin 220 on Front St. Centovini on Houston.

[Fat Guy]

Vintage is just a tasting room for Long Island wines...

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I thought I heard that Vintage had opened an actual wine bar with food ("WineBar"), maybe next door to the store, a couple of years ago.

[Nathan]

Vintage is just a tasting room for Long Island wines...

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I thought I heard that Vintage had opened an actual wine bar with food ("WineBar"), maybe next door to the store, a couple of years ago.

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oh...no clue then...

[Fat Guy]

Okay here's the info from the Vintage New York website:

VNY WineBar is a feast for the senses. With 56 seats on two levels, including a balcony that overlooks the tasting room, it is a stylish and comfortable room. We offer more than 200 wines by the glass, and a creative menu of wine-friendly food at very reasonable prices. Every menu item has a suggested wine pairing and we have a dozen different 3-wine flights available every day.

We are open every day from 5PM on. No reservations.

You can follow that link above for a menu etc.

[Sneakeater]

Adour can't be considered a wine bar, IMO, because the actual bar has only four seats, whereas the formal dining room is capacious.

Edited February 18, 2008 by Sneakeater (log)

[Sneakeater]

Vintage (the original Soho location) does in fact have a wine bar next door. It's good.

Edited February 18, 2008 by Sneakeater (log)

[Fat Guy]

Adour can't be considered a wine bar, IMO, because the actual bar has only four seats, whereas the formal dining room is capacious.

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As I understand it, the bar/lounge/alcove/whatever has a few booths as well. There are a couple of questions raised by all this, though. First, is bar seating essential, or is lounge seating enough to get you qualified as a wine bar? I have to say when I go to Bar @ Etats-Unis I typically sit at a table. But I consider it a wine bar. Second, is there a size limit? Does a four-seat wine bar with a few booths count? If not, why not? What about a theoretical wine bar with 600 seats? Would that do so much violence to the concept as to be not a wine bar?

[Sneakeater]

I think you could call Adour a wine bar if ALL it had was the bar and a few booths. (I agree that a "lounge" can be a bar: I don't think there's an actual bar at the Vintage Wine Bar, but that's certainly a wine bar.) What I DON'T think can be called a "wine bar" is a large restaurant with a tiny bar-and-lounge area attached.

Maybe if the Adour wine bar had a separate entrance from the restaurant.

Edited February 18, 2008 by Sneakeater (log)

[Nathan]

practically every NY restaurant (from the medium-end and up) has a bar and serves wine....

Edited February 18, 2008 by Nathan (log)

[Sneakeater]

I think size is relevant but not determinative. It probably becomes more important as a factor to the extent that bar seating doesn't predominate.

What I mean is, the Vintage Wine Bar clearly seems to a be wine bar to me, even though there's no actual bar (as best as I recall), because it's small and informal, with fairly unelaborate food.

Adour, OTOH, is a big formal restaurant with a tiny bar-and-lounge area attached.

The Bar @ Etats-Unis is a wine bar, even though there's also lounge seating, because the bar predominates in the room, and there isn't that MUCH lounge seating.

I would think you could have a HUGE bar, seating many people, and it would still be wine bar if the bar dominated the room.

Edited February 19, 2008 by Sneakeater (log)

[Nathan]

I think size is relevant but not determinative.  It probably becomes more important as a factor to the extent that bar seating doesn't predominate.

What I mean is, the Vintage Wine Bar clearly seems to a be wine bar to me, even though there's no actual bar (as best as I recall), because it's small and informal, with fairly unelaborate food.

Adour, OTOH, is a big formal restaurant with a tiny bar-and-lounge area attached. 

The Bar @ Etats-Unis is a wine bar, even though there's also lounge seating because the bar predominates the room, and there isn't that MUCH lounge seating.

I would think you could have a HUGE bar, seating many people, and it would still be wine bar if the bar dominated the room.

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actually, that differentiates Bar Boulud rather well from Adour....Bar Boulud does....

[Sneakeater]

I haven't been yet. I think Bar Boulud is the test case.

[Luckylies]

bar veloce... against the grain...

[Sneakeater]

Are wine bars NOT part of the "small plates" trend?

[Nathan]

the Bar at Etats Unis has a miniscule list though. it's a dining bar not a winebar.

Academia de Vino actually has a decent selection of Italian wines...and solid enough food. the decor/atmosphere leaves something to be desired though.

Terroir opened yesterday.

[weinoo]

Le Bateau Ivre, website

[plattetude]

Vintage is just a tasting room for Long Island wines...

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I thought I heard that Vintage had opened an actual wine bar with food ("WineBar"), maybe next door to the store, a couple of years ago.

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Also, to pick a nit, it covers all NY wines, not just Long Island (and because they're affiliated with an actual wine-producer in the Hudson Valley, they can be open on Sundays, unlike most wine sellers in NY). There's some good stuff to be had from the Finger Lakes, particularly for varietals like riesling and gewurztraminer.

Christopher

[Nathan]

Vintage is just a tasting room for Long Island wines...

←

I thought I heard that Vintage had opened an actual wine bar with food ("WineBar"), maybe next door to the store, a couple of years ago.

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Also, to pick a nit, it covers all NY wines, not just Long Island (and because they're affiliated with an actual wine-producer in the Hudson Valley, they can be open on Sundays, unlike most wine sellers in NY). There's some good stuff to be had from the Finger Lakes, particularly for varietals like riesling and gewurztraminer.

Christopher

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point taken. but the Sunday law ended years ago. that's why virtually all NYC wine and liquor stores are now open on Sundays.

[Fat Guy]

Are wine bars NOT part of the "small plates" trend?

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I just finished a story for Crain's New York Business on wine bars, and given the business orientation of that publication I focused some research on business questions. After visiting a whole mess of New York City's wine bars and speaking to a dozen or so people in the industry, it's clear to me that wine bars are very much a part of the small-plates trend. Or, rather, they dovetail with that trend, because they're also about more than just small plates. The wine-bar boom is in part a product of the high costs of labor, real estate and ingredients. A wine bar can function in a narrow space without a full kitchen, with a small staff and using products and portion sizes that work out well economically. That business proposition works for several types of owners: newcomers who can't raise a lot of money (several owners told me they opened wine bars because they couldn't afford to open full-blown restaurants), restaurant groups that can use economies of scale (like preparing all the food for Terroir at Hearth), and luxury brands looking to capture some of the casual market (Adour, Bar Boulud, Le Cirque's new wine bar). In other words, it works for pretty much everyone. Zagat.com now lists 64 wine bars in New York City, though curiously it lists them in the nightlife survey not the restaurant survey.