The Modern, Urbis, Manchester

[thom]

Ah, those crazy fools at the MEN. They also gave Grado five stars (though in their defense I swear it was great in it's opening weeks!)

So who do your trust? National reviewer, local reviewer or your own fine judgement? I'm assuming you haven't been to The Modern yet RDB so I say come for lunch with me*; I don't need much excuse to make a return visit!

I don't expect you to pull any punches with your views so I hereby do promise to take any criticism on the chin (as long as you let me explain why the last eGullet lunch at Juniper sadly didn't even inspire a write-up on here).

PM me if you fancy it.

Cheers

Thom

*I admit the fact it's with me may be offputting rather than a selling point.

[Bapi]

I'm assuming you haven't been to The Modern yet RDB so I say come for lunch with me*; I don't need much excuse to make a return visit!

I don't expect you to pull any punches with your views so I hereby do promise to take any criticism on the chin (as long as you let me explain why the last eGullet lunch at Juniper sadly didn't even inspire a write-up on here).

*I admit the fact it's with me may be offputting rather than a selling point.

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Too bloody right it is- don't do it Robin Actually, Robin, Adam and I have been meaning to meet up for a while perhaps we could open this up Thom? I'll PM you chaps. I'd also like to join in that Juniper conversation too

As an aside- I also remembered that during our lunch last month Gary, Thom and I were discussing - er, food (who would have thought it? ). All three of us agreed, that our obsession with eating out and diminishing disposable income was down to one man. It transpired that we three had had seminal meals, albeit not together at The Merchant House after which- well, there was no going back. Damm that Shaun Hill- he has a lot to answer for.

[thom]

Oh Bapi, I am still piecing together tattered fragments of that night. I keep having flashbacks, like something from Apocalypse Now... Equally disturbingly, some elements of that night will never leave me. No matter how hard I try to find a happy place...

And yes, Shaun Hill is responsible for my ever-increasing girth and my ever more parlous financial state. Damn him, damn him to heck. I'll never forgive him. Unless he makes that monkfish, cucumber and mustard dish for me again.

Finally, I say you're spot on, let's open it up to a general Mancunian eGullet soiree. Or Northwestern? Or Northern? Bapi, as you've kindly put yourself forward as diary-coordinator extraordinaire (well you are unemployed) I shall wait to hear from you in due course!

Cheers

Thom

Edited February 15, 2008 by thom (log)

[BertieWooster]

And you can all moan about the appalling metro-centrism and snobbery of the Hardens review

I mean, the man might be right, but the review reeks of 'this sort of thing wouldn't go down very well in London, what are those awful northerners thinking about, how dare people enjoy such food...'. Actually, it might have been written by Brian Sewell.

Think we'll snip the "its good enough to become a true 'destination'" as the part of the review to quote...

[spanielking]

Yay, can I come to your Northern shindig if it gets organised and depending when it is???? I'm a bit broke at the mo though, bit like most people, I have promised to take my Gran to Mallory Court next week, I'd say I'd pay. Doh!!!!

[malcolmwilliamson]

A little old but a review none the less.

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/ent..._modern_mission

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the buggers gave us four stars originally (I have the evidence) online and then reduced it...grr.

In Restaurant mag this issue...

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Their award of 3 stars is both mean and out of line with their reviewer's description of the Modern meal. On my one experience of eating there I'd rate the modern 4 stars. I'm trekking up to Manchester in early March to re-evaluate.

PS Is finding your way into buildings not taught up north?

Or is the Modern entrance deliberately placed to be found first time only by southern pedestrians approaching from Piccadilly train station.

[RDB]

Ah, those crazy fools at the MEN. They also gave Grado five stars (though in their defense I swear it was great in it's opening weeks!)

So who do your trust? National reviewer, local reviewer or your own fine judgement? I'm assuming you haven't been to The Modern yet RDB so I say come for lunch with me*; I don't need much excuse to make a return visit!

I don't expect you to pull any punches with your views so I hereby do promise to take any criticism on the chin (as long as you let me explain why the last eGullet lunch at Juniper sadly didn't even inspire a write-up on here).

PM me if you fancy it.

Cheers

Thom

*I admit the fact it's with me may be offputting rather than a selling point.

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I would like that very much Thom, thank you. I am especially intrigued by your Juniper experience.

Bapi in charge or co-ordination???

[Gary Marshall]

I would like that very much Thom, thank you. I am especially intrigued by your Juniper experience.

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i can save you both a lunch with thom, and a long conversation about our lunch at juniper with a single word summation.

small clue, it's not 'brilliant'

[thom]

Bapi in charge or co-ordination???

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Possibly a typo, but actually suprisingly accurate - It's Bapi in charge OR co-ordination, the two are mutually exclusive.

I jest, obviously. The ball is well and truly in the court of the Bap-meister. A safe pair of hands if ever there were.

Cheers

Thom

[RDB]

Bapi in charge or co-ordination???

←

Possibly a typo, but actually suprisingly accurate - It's Bapi in charge OR co-ordination, the two are mutually exclusive.

I jest, obviously. The ball is well and truly in the court of the Bap-meister. A safe pair of hands if ever there were.

Cheers

Thom

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A typo indeed

Now the onslaught of eating out in Manchester has reached almost surreal levels, with none other than Mr Winner laying the boot into The Lowry.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_...inners_dinners/

I must say I was there two months ago and had the worst starter ever, which was basically a cold, veiny and greasy lump of 'foie gras'.

[Bapi]

Bapi in charge or co-ordination???

←

Possibly a typo, but actually suprisingly accurate - It's Bapi in charge OR co-ordination, the two are mutually exclusive.

I jest, obviously. The ball is well and truly in the court of the Bap-meister. A safe pair of hands if ever there were.

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RDB- Shut it and don't forget you still owe me a fiver for that Sat Bains review

Thom- Would you like me to tell the nice ladies and gentleman about your spectacularly inept ability re reading a calendar re last months outing? Not once but twice I ask you. Would you? As we are on the subject- best to get a colleague to check which dates in April your show show is eh, ol' bean?

[thom]

Thom- Would you like me to tell the nice ladies and gentleman about your spectacularly inept ability re reading a calendar  re last months outing?

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Bless, I tee them up for you to knock them in!

Cheers

Thom

[BertieWooster]

More on 'why oh why can't Manchester sustain a Michelin star?' over at Crain's

[Sturge]

Given the author's take on the spelling of Stuart 'professional northerner, shit radio presenter' Maconie's name, how seriously should we take his research into Michelin matters?

[thom]

Arghh... I was going to try not to get sucked into the whole Michelin thing again but I just can't let it go unanswered... I did post in reply to someone flagging up the Crain's article on another website forum (like an eGullet for architecture) but I now feel compelled to drop it in here too (apologies for the repetition of points made elsewhere on eGullet):

"That Michelin article rehashes some lazy and unsubstantiated arguments and is just plain wrong on several points. I don't post a huge amount on here (though I lurk obsessively) as I consider myself a bit of a mere wide-eyed novice in the world of architecture but on the subject of restaurants, and more specifically Manchester restaurants, I know my onions. And, indeed, my shallots.

I have debated, analysed and argued (and deliberated and cogitated) the issue of "Why does Manchester not have a Michelin star?" on more occassions than I care to remember, and here are my thoughts (for what they are worth) on the varied elements that make up the debate:

Does a Michelin star even matter?

Lord knows the Michlein system has it's faults, and that Michelin dining is not the be all and end all, but it bestows national and international recognition upon a city for a certain demographic of tourists and business people who tend to be affluent, important and influential. This is no bad thing.

So Manchester's restaurant scene is poor?

Nope, Manchester has consistently had a broader, deeper and more varied restaurant scene than anywhere else outside London. Check any restaurant guide, from The Good Food Guide, to the AA, to Hardens, to Egon Ronay, and Manchester always has more entries than any other city.

It's strengths are ethnic restaurants (EastZEast, The Yang Sing, Red Chilli), smart mid-market operations (Croma, Piccolino, Luso), and slick, trendy, sceney places (Restaurant Bar and Grill, Grill on the Alley, Harvey Nichols). It also has it's share of quirky food ventures (Love Saves The Day, Barburrito, Soup Kitchen) and has been a breeding ground for successful nationwide roll-outs (Living Room, Est Est Est, La Tasca).

So Manchester doesn't have a market for Michelin?

Bollocks. There are more than enough people in and around Manchester (not to mention the business and leisure tourists) who would keep a Michelin star restaurant going. To suggest otherwise is utter rubbish. I speak to enough Mancunian dwellers each month who grumble about having to travel for their food kicks to sustain a restaurant here in our city.

So why did Le Mont et al fail?

Because they were not the right businesses. Far be it from me to criticise individual operators but I can tell you that on a variety of levels Establishment, Le Mont (and Reform, and The Cotton House etc etc) were fundamentally flawed and this is well know by anyone in the Manchester restaurant industry.

But why can't people get it right?

Because creating a successful restaurant is tough. Creating a successful restaurant at a fine-dining level is exacting. To do all of this and then jump through the hoops demanded (or not demanded, as their criteria are never revealed) by Michelin is nothing short of excruciating, and that is why so few manage it.

So what do we do?

You cannot give a city a star from the top down just by claiming a "market". This is not some commoditised economics niche that will be filled by market forces. Nor can it be "taught" as the Mersey Partnership recently tried to do for it's aspiring chef-patrons.

It will also not come from big business claiming that they are going to "bring" us a Michelin star. The biggest failing in this city is for money men to think that paying through the nose for an all-singing all-dancing operation in a prime site with excruciating rent and rates and a hired gun of a chef and an opening party full of footballers and soap stars is the way to bring a star to Manchester. It isn't.

The only way we will get a star is for it to come from one person. A chef. A chef, who has the talent, the wit and the commitment to make it happen. It would require them to take a gamble on a small off-piste site (30-40 covers so they only need the chef patron, plus a sous, KP and FOH) and to do nothing more than put his/her head down and cook like a bastard at the most phenomenal level until a small but appreciative audience finds them and word starts to spread.

I would point to Anthony Flynn in Leeds (though ironically he has missed out on a star to general suprise) as a template for how this could be achieved. He also fulfills my belief that the only person commited enough to really try and break through culinary barriers in a given city is a local boy/girl. Otherwise, if you have no ties or loyalty, why not just jack it in and go somewhere easier?

So who is our Mancunian Messiah?

Interesting point, as we DO need one. Look at all the "flagship" high-end chefs in the surrounding cities. Often they are the only chefs of note within their town and dominate the market. Liverpool has Paul Askew (Hope St Hotel, London Carriage Works, 60 Hope St etc) - local boy made good. Leeds has Anthony Flynn (Anthonys, Anthony's at Flannels, Anthony's Patesserie etc) - local boy made good. Newcastle has Terry Laybourne (Jesmond Dene House Hotel, various cafes restaurants and delis) - local boy made good. Take any of those individuals out of their hometowns and dining offering is substantially weakened.

For us here in Manchester? My tip of those chefs currently operating in the city would be David Gale at the Hilton (ex of Nico, Soho House New York, Rosetti, Selfridges and City Inn), Robert Owen Brown (ex of Sams Chophouse, Lounge Ten, The Bridge) or Alison Seagrave (Harvey Nichols). Otherwise maybe as with Anthony (who returned to Leeds from El Bulli, one of the world's greatest restaurants, where he is the only English guy ever to get accepted for a paid stage) some exiled Mancunian will return home and lead us to the gastronomic promised land...

But why is it just Manchester that struggles?

It is NOT merely a Manchester problem. Look at the spread of stars in the UK. London has a stack, obviously. Aside from that the vast majority are in rural areas (normally touristy), affluent towns or suburbs as this is where the operational economics stack up. Besides that? Well, an interesting pattern. Birmingham currently has a single star (they recently lost one, and arguably the one they retained isn't even in the city centre proper) but after that it appears you have to be a "capital" city.

Edinburgh has a star in it's CBD. As does Dublin. London, as mentioned, has loads. Even Belfast has one! But... Glasgow, Newcastle, Manchester, Liverpool, Leeds, Sheffield, Nottingham, Bristol, Southhampton, Brighton and Cardiff - not one of them has a star to its name. Many of these cities have all the elements you would expect would be need to support a star (affluent populations, decent tourism, big business communities) yet don't.

Is it the pull of visitors that the kudos of being a capital bestows that makes such a restaurant more viable? Now that I don't know, but the take home message is that Manchester, although a city that deserves and needs a star, is not off the pace or underperforming and has many strengths to applaud in restaurant terms.

Ahhh... I feel better now I have vented and got that of my chest. It just irritates me. The whole Michelin star schtick has become a stick to beat Manchester with and it's become a truism through repetition which is rehashed and reheated by all manner of journalists, many of whom should know better, on a regular basis.

Cheers

Thom"

[ravelda]

"Edinburgh has a star in it's CBD. As does Dublin. London, as mentioned, has loads. Even Belfast has one! But... Glasgow, Newcastle, Manchester, Liverpool, Leeds, Sheffield, Nottingham, Bristol, Southhampton, Brighton and Cardiff - not one of them has a star to its name. Many of these cities have all the elements you would expect would be need to support a star (affluent populations, decent tourism, big business communities) yet don't. "

Nottingham does have a Micelin star though - Sat Baines!

[BertieWooster]

"Edinburgh has a star in it's CBD. As does Dublin. London, as mentioned, has loads. Even Belfast has one! But... Glasgow, Newcastle, Manchester, Liverpool, Leeds, Sheffield, Nottingham, Bristol, Southhampton, Brighton and Cardiff - not one of them has a star to its name. Many of these cities have all the elements you would expect would be need to support a star (affluent populations, decent tourism, big business communities) yet don't. "

Nottingham does have a Micelin star though - Sat Baines!

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Uhhr, not in its CBD it doesn't. Same with Sheffield and MAnchester; their starred establishments are out of town.

[thom]

"Edinburgh has a star in it's CBD. As does Dublin. London, as mentioned, has loads. Even Belfast has one! But... Glasgow, Newcastle, Manchester, Liverpool, Leeds, Sheffield, Nottingham, Bristol, Southhampton, Brighton and Cardiff - not one of them has a star to its name. Many of these cities have all the elements you would expect would be need to support a star (affluent populations, decent tourism, big business communities) yet don't. "

Nottingham does have a Micelin star though - Sat Baines!

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Uhhr, not in its CBD it doesn't. Same with Sheffield and MAnchester; their starred establishments are out of town.

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Zigackly. I am talking about city centre's here, or CBD's to be more precise. The economics of somewhere like Juniper or Sat Bains would be completely different (arguably unsustainable) if they were competing with Starbucks, Tesco Metro et al for prime retail leisure sites in the middle of town. That's kind of the crux of the matter.

Cheers

Thom

[dipardoo]

Michelin in Manchester argument aside, Thom, i'm still not thoroughly convinced by Manchester as a dining destination. of course i don't know it as well as you do, and i haven't eaten at all the restaurants you mention but i just can't get that excited about restaurant bar and grill, piccolino, yang sing. on my most recent trip to manchester, i ate at Grado, and was really disappointed as i thought PH might deliver with this one...

i know you'll hate me for saying it, but if i'm in manchester on business and i have time for lunch, i don't think whoopee where can i got eat, wahay.

but not been to red chilli so i'll try that next time

[Gary Marshall]

Michelin in Manchester argument aside, Thom, i'm still not thoroughly convinced by Manchester as a dining destination. of course i don't know it as well as you do, and i haven't eaten at all the restaurants you mention but i just can't get that excited about restaurant bar and grill, piccolino, yang sing. on my most recent trip to manchester, i ate at Grado, and was really disappointed as i thought PH might deliver with this one...

i know you'll hate me for saying it, but if i'm in manchester on business and i have time for lunch, i don't think whoopee where can i got eat, wahay.

but not been to red chilli so i'll try that next time

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As i said before there's no reason for manchester to beat itself up over lack of stars, Anthony's being in leeds town centre is an anomaly, other than that it is hard to excited about dining in the town centre of most provincial towns/cities.

Anthonys was a cheap site relatively and i think they have benefitted from being close to the station so punters can get there easily and it's not totally dependent on local trade.

[dipardoo]

Manch doesn't need to beat itself up over lack of stars, no, but i still its non-'michelin' star restaurants never wow me either. the problem with the city for me is that i keep hearing about great places to eat so i go there only to come away disappointed.

if i go to nottingham or birmingham for example, it's easier to be impressed because nothing's been oversold to me in the first place.

[BertieWooster]

i know you'll hate me for saying it, but if i'm in manchester on business and i have time for lunch, i don't think whoopee where can i got eat, wahay.

but not been to red chilli so i'll try that next time

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Given that it hasn't been mentioned in a load of posts or so, thus falling outside Lynes' law, can I note the place in the title of the thread might be worth trying if you're up that end of town (blah blah biases noted)

[RichardHarden]

And you can all moan about the appalling metro-centrism and snobbery of the Hardens review

I mean, the man might be right, but the review reeks of 'this sort of thing wouldn't go down very well in London, what are those awful northerners thinking about, how dare people enjoy such food...'. Actually, it might have been written by Brian Sewell.

Think we'll snip the "its good enough to become a true 'destination'" as the part of the review to quote...

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Flatterer: Brian Sewell is one of the great writers of our day.

It’s amazing how people find in reviews what they want to. Conscious of an (inevitable) London perspective, we explicitly took comfort in our review from the fact that “the MEN’s reviewer … awarded … the three (out of five) stars we might, on a good day, have awarded to a similar establishment in the capital”. Quite how agreeing with the local reviewer could be said to smack of metropolitan condescension, I don't really understand.

[thom]

A belated response to comments further up the thread.

Firstly, I must point out that as stated the Michelin rant I posted about was "reposted" from an architecture website, and the list of restaurants I used reflects that - i was looking for brands or names that would be recogised by planning officers and property barons rather than those that would pique the interest of a rariefied audience of foodies.

And yes, I take the point that Manchester's restaurants may often fail to excite someone travelling to the city but I do think that's a little harsh to apply across the board (Red Chilli!). And as Gary says the same argument could be made about any provincial city, which pretty much echo's the crux of my original Michelin argument - this is a provincial city "issue", not a Manchester issue.

I personally travel to most of the major cities around the North of a regular basis and the last time a city centre meal blew me away? Probably Anthony's, with Gary, four years ago. Aside from that? Leeds? Liverpool? Sheffield? Newcastle? Nottingham? Plenty of "nice" meals (and many poor one's) but nothing which would have me clamouring to return.

Dipardoo, possibly you are right that Manchester's restaurant's get talked up more than most (that's cocky Manc's for you) but I guess that partly depends on the medium. In terms of national media I don't think we get undue attention and if we get disproportionate coverage on here I guess that is because there are a lot of North West/Mancunian eGulleteers. We talk about where we can regularly eat (which is why most London-based critics struggle to break out of the M25!).

Personally, I stand by the evidence of the vast majority of restaurant guides over the last decade - They report that Manchester city centre has a restaurant scene broader and deeper than anywhere outside London but also make clear that it lacks a couple of big, consistent hitters at the top end. I love being able to eat out at lots of great places on my doorstep because I live here, but I fully appreciate that doesn't mean that these places are worthy of a gastronomic pilgrimage.

Except, maybe, Red Chilli.

Cheers

Thom

[RDB]

Not to go on about it, but, I must say Michelin stars are where I would love restaurants in Manchester to be aiming for or even bib gourmands for that matter. I really think that in some respects as a ‘culinary destination’ it needs to be raising the game, instead of constant self congratulation and certain chefs acting like they are major players in the world of food. This is often reinforced by the media, i.e., the MEN who I feel on the whole tend to hype up certain restaurants and make out the food scene in Manchester is second to none. In my experience it is not. As a diner my overall experience has been mediocre to poor.

I do agree that it has great range in depth and the types of restaurants, but that does not mean that they are all good, never mind innovative, different, exciting or consistently excellent. By in large they are just formulaic. To have such a broad range of restaurants you must have a great deal of diners eating out, which Manchester does. Working with this equation you usually end up with a restaurant making lots of money, so I suppose when there is financial success, who cares about raising the game.

I know there have been arguments based around comparisons with other UK cities; this maybe the case, but I do not spend the majority of my days in other cities. I am just highly frustrated with Manchester and its ‘great food scene’ or in my reality, real lack of. I think it is important to keep pointing this out from a diner’s perspective and I was glad to see the same from other national reviewers and egullet members who shared similar thoughts and experiences to me. At the end of the day the only real recommendation that seems to be consistent is Red Chilli, but one restaurant a city does not make.

Thom, I know you are very knowledgeable on the food scene in Manchester and are passionate in its defence, which may be to do with professional reasons as much as personal, I don’t know. I have witnessed you recommend certain restaurants and have thought to myself, have we been to the same places? Now a few weeks back, (which started all the lively Manc debate) you claimed that things were picking up in Manchester, and in doing so mentioned The Modern (and others). Also in the course of the debate you stated that you had other interests in this venture, which forgive me, raised my suspicions further. Now when you suggested I join you for lunch I was honoured, however, I became a little concerned if I did would this bias my opinion?. So to avoid any extraneous variables, I decided to pop in on a solo covert mission.

I will give quick run down on my visit.

The room is great, no problems at all. Very relaxing and well designed, totally lacking in pretension. I reckon it is pretty effective at nighttimes.

Food then. Served two rolls, which were basically delicious and served with good butter. Fresh, warm and chewy. I knew I was in for a treat, you can always tell by the bread.

Strangely enough the dishes I ordered where exactly the same choices as NikkiB.

The ham and Lancashire cheese terrine, was absolutely astounding, best dish I have had this year. Served with beautiful piccalilli, excellently dressed salad and I think sourdough bread. The terrine was unctuous and perfectly seasoned. Basically a fine deconstructed, cheese, ham, pickle and salad buttie. Totally flawless and satisfying.

For main I had the John Dory, mussels, razor clams, champagne sauce and salsify. Fabulous piece of fish which somehow appeared to be seasoned with salt and vinegar a la chip shop? Seafood accompaniment delightful, sauce perfectly balanced and presented beautifully. The only criticisms is the roasted salsify seemed to be cut in different lengths, which resulted in a few being overdone at one end and underdone at the other. A first class dish none the less.

Pudding was the delightful wintery parkin and pear. Very comforting and tasty.

Service was fine, with just one minor issue. Firstly the waitress did not know what the cheeses were, so after going off to ask the chef, she came back and read from what appeared a quickly put together script, " Blackstick's blue, well this is like a Stilton......".

Again the seasonality and origin issues are covered at every angle. A nice touch are the descriptions of some of the food suppliers in the lift. You are primed before you even get in !!!!

One of the best compliments I can give The Modern is that it really reminded me of Arbutus, it is almost at that level.

I was actually quite impressed by my experience at The Modern and I mean that without any bias towards being kind to Manchester or feeling the need to agree with some of the big names on egullet. I know I am harsh on Manchester but to me I have ever reason to be. The Modern however really is something to be optimistic about and somewhere that is actually delivering what it says it is delivering. I actually think that those behind this venture actually really care about what they are doing and what they are producing, which believe it or not is a rarity. On my visit it does seem that this restaurant alone is certainly raising the game and hopefully the rest of Manchester will follow

Without getting too carried away, one visit a restaurant does not make, so I will definitely return again to see if it is still as fine as my initial visit. On that note, has a date been set then boys, I think the spring menu is starting soon?