If You Could Only Pick One

[robyn]

Haven't been to Paris in more years than I care to mention. It is not getting any cheaper - and I am not getting any younger. So I decided to go back there this fall (have to plan this far in advance to get reward tickets). We'll be there for a week - but there is a limit to what my husband and I can eat these days. So we are probably looking at one or two really big deal dinners (and/or lunches).

I'm interested in what different people here think of the current crop of "big deal restaurants". Specifically - if you could only pick one - which would you pick? And why? Note that I'm more interested in a newer restaurant on its way up to a second or third star - than one on the way down. Although if you have an old favorite - well that's ok too.

We'll probably be taking a day trip or two out of the city - so if your favorite is an hour or so by train outside the city - please mention it.

As always - I get to make all the reservations - and my husband studies the language. He already knows some French - so he should be pretty good by the fall (French will be easier for him than German and Japanese - his last 2 language projects). IOW - restaurants where English isn't spoken - or isn't spoken well - are ok.

I think it will be easier to find good food in Paris than getting tickets for any of the shows during Fashion Week (which is when we'll be there) - I know a lot more about food than I know about fashion. Robyn

[John Talbott]

We'll probably be taking a day trip or two out of the city - so if your favorite is an hour or so by train outside the city - please mention it.

Robyn

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Robyn: great!

While I've eaten at all the stars, some when their chefs were but children, no more, for a lotta reasons, I've moved on, so I cannot contribute to that solution.

However, 40-60 minutes outside Paris is a one star that is IMHO terrific - Les Magnolias, for a bit see here.

And please report back.

[HOLLY_L]

Two two-stars that I ate at that may be on their way up at some point are Le Bristol and Les Ambassadeurs. Someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Les Ambassadeurs may officially have that designation (the rising two star)? I had very good meals at both, and very good service as well. For me, Le Bristol had the slight edge. They were very close on food, but I liked the Bristol space better - more welcoming. FYI, I was in the summer restaurant, however, and depending on when you are in Paris in the fall, they may be serving in the winter restaurant, which I can't speak to. I believe both restaurants generally have very good reports here on egullet (that's how I chose them).

There are many worthy three stars as well that are not on their way down, of course.

Edited to add: thinking back, I thought the service at Le Bristol was a little warmer/friendlier, but only marginally.

Edited January 4, 2008 by HOLLY_L (log)

[John Talbott]

Two two-stars that I ate at that may be on their way up at some point are Le Bristol and Les Ambassadeurs. 

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I was about to say that both are just fine, indeed great, but then it occurred to me, is there any starred place (excepting Helene Darroze, that we wouldn't recommend?

[robyn]

OK - I think you need more information from me. We did a lot of big deal dining in France in the 70's and 80's. I ate at Grand Vefour when it had 3 stars (before it lost them and got them back). At Jamin when it had 1 star (had just opened). At L'Archestrate and Lucas Carton (both Senderens). I am totally unfamiliar with 2 decades of restaurants except by name - places like Guy Savoy - Arpege - Pierre Gagnaire - and I'd by lying if I told you that what little information I have is anything but fragmentary at this point.

I know you're not going to find me the next Jamin - but I'd like to explore the current dining scene. Those restaurants at the top of their game - as well as some rising stars (even if they don't aspire to 3 star status). I'd like to avoid those restaurants I should have dined at 10 years ago - but didn't - which are now perhaps on the back side of the mountain (I've tried to do that before - and it has always been a sad experience). I would also like to avoid restaurants where the chef is so famous that he's rarely in the kitchen these days - unless the food is extraordinary in the chef's absence (sometimes it is - I had lunch at Gordon Ramsay RHR about 3 years ago - and the food was terrific although Ramsay was off doing a TV show somewhere).

BTW - I really like chefs who make good use of seasonal ingredients (e.g., fall is game season and I like game). I don't like chefs where everything is foie gras this and foie gras that to give the impression of luxury. I would rather have a great pigeon dish than another foie gras dish.

Oh - and if the moderators don't mind mixing up the thread a bit - if your favorite happens to be not a big deal restaurant (in terms of stars or decor) - throw it in too. Like I said - my husband and I only have the capacity to eat so much - so we will be eating a fair number of simple meals. Some of my fondest recollections of French dining are of extraordinary ingredients prepared simply. Robyn

[HOLLY_L]

If I really only could pick one, I would pick L'Ambroisie, but I think you'd get a lot of different responses from the egulleters (many of them more informed then me). But I read a lot of reports before I visited France last May, dined at several two and three star restaurants, and thought L'Ambroisie was the best. There will be attention to seasonality there; but I can't speak specifically to game. L'Ambroisie has obviously been around a long time - probably when you were there last. I haven't read anything indicating that Pacaud is on the back side of the mountain as it were, but I've only been there once last year so can't compare.

Some of my fondest recollections of French dining are of extraordinary ingredients prepared simply

Although you mentioned this in terms of non big deal restaurants, it's also very true of L'Ambroisie.

Pierre Gagnaire would be a very different type of experience, but again is certainly not someone who I believe people say is in decline. His is a much more experimental cuisine, and if you're looking for that, he would be a good choice. Again, I think you'd have egulleters going both ways, and I personally ranked PG lower than L'Ambroisie, and probably lower than L'Arpege and Ledoyen. But that's very much a matter of personal taste.

I found that this website provided a useful clearinghouse for links to a variety of reviews of the most highly starred restaurants. If you enjoying reading reviews, it might be a good place to explore, beyond searching threads here.

Edited January 5, 2008 by HOLLY_L (log)

[robert40]

Robyn,

I have not been to L'Ambroisie but if I had to pick one, it would be it.

See L'Ambroisie thread here on egullet and more info below.

http://www.gastroville.com/

Edited January 5, 2008 by robert40 (log)

[Julian Teoh]

Robyn,

I second Holly's recommendation of Les Ambassadeurs - at lunchtime, they offer 80E menus with three courses (two options per course), cheese and an avalanche of gourmandises. The dishes they offer are also part of their full-priced carte at night, so lunch is not a poorer cousin by any stretch of the imagination. The wine list is somewhat poorer value.

At Reims, well actually, a three minute cab ride to the west in Tinqueux, is the excellent L'Assiette Champenoise aka Restaurant Arnaud Lallement. Again, great value lunch menu at 65E and somehow even more sweet treats at the end than at Ambassadeurs. It is very fine food but has a lot of fun and theatre as well. The dining room is vast and comfortable and naturally, the champagne selection is superb. My eGullet review with photos is here.

Julotlespinceaux alerted me to Les Elysees du Vernet, run by Eric Briffard, a Robuchon alumnus. I have never eaten Robuchon's food, but those in the know say Briffard's food is in the same mould. Given your Jamin memories, it might be worth a try? Seasonal menu and truly flavoursome food.

If it matters, I ate at these places in the week after Christmas and all chefs were on board.

Edited January 5, 2008 by Julian Teoh (log)

[julot-les-pinceaux]

I would second the idea that l'Ambroisie and l'Arpège just do the best food on earth, both based on the oldest wisdom: getting the best of exceptional ingredients. But those restaurants are extremly expensive, as they are reaching for the sky, they only reach most of the time. At those prices, disappointments are brutal and they happen something like every third time. Also, restaurants are not only about the best possible food, and, in my opinion, the setting is quite unexciting in both restaurants. Many people enjoy top restaurants under the angle of the "art-de-vivre" and indeed restaurants in France are part of culture, not only agri-culture. So some restaurants have a way of making you feel special, of creating the moment for you and I would totally rank Savoy and Taillevent as the best in that regards. Highest luxury is also something that is worth mentioning and part of that cultural experience, and then Le Meurice and les Ambassadeurs are probably the best in that category. Then again culture cannot be static and for some people it is particularly important to focus on the way it is changing and moving and surprising. Gagnaire in that regard has unquestioned leadership, while les Magnolias (to which I have not been) have a nice reputation on this and other boards.

And going back to food love but spending a bit less money, Senderens and les Elysées are my personal picks -- that's where I would go if I only had one meal in Paris and "only" 200 eur per person or even less.

To be fair, I haven't been to Ledoyen yet, but I intend to fix that soon, and I am heading for les Ambassadeurs at the end of the month (haven't been earlier cos, as suggested in the above post, didn't like Piège's cuisine when it was labelled Ducasse's).

[robyn]

Julot - I don't have the time to search through ancient threads - but I have had arguments with people here from time to time about the consistency one should expect from a 3 star Michelin restaurant. It has been - and still is my opinion - that disapointments as you call them should happen almost never. In other words - if a restaurant misses the mark one out of three times - it shouldn't get 3 stars. But I will take your word that that is the case today - and act accordingly. If I spent $1000 on a meal and experienced one of these disappointments - I think I'd want to run into the kitchen and murder the chef.

I would like to try Senderens for sentimental reasons - since I have been to both of Senderens' earlier 3 star restaurants. And I think that perhaps we may do lunch instead of dinner at a big deal place or two. Maybe also try something like Gaya (Gagnaire's newer "informal" restaurant). I have a lot of reading to do! Robyn

[HOLLY_L]

robyn, while I certainly don't have the experience to know whether it is common to have a disappointing experience at L'Ambroisie or L'Arpege one out of three times, it seems to me that such odds are pretty unlikely if disappointment is used here to mean bad, mediocre, or even merely good food or service. I would guess even most "disappointments" at those restaurants would still involve excellent food/service. But even excellence would be disappointing if you're expecting the perfect or nearly perfect meals that are possible from those restaurants.

[julot-les-pinceaux]

Exactly. Food is always excellent at l'Ambroisie, but it is not always orgasmic. But in terms of consistency of the whole experience, as I said, Taillevent, Rostang or Savoy beat l'Ambroisie or l'Arpège. Or le Meurice. Or many others, really.

I disagree that this is inacceptable even if I regret that it is so. When you take a trip, go to the theater, to a concert, those are all costly events and you know that there is always a significant chance that the experience will be bad or simply not worth it. The way I see things, you consider spending that kind of money in food because you expect a life-enriching experience. And, alas, there is no way to guarantee that. No quality criteria suffice here. Top restaurants, especially these, are human enterprises, one of the last fields of human activity where craftmanship remains, where industry does not rule.

No opinion on Gagnaire's Gaya but I wholeheartedly support Senderens (please see my blog for more reading on those restaurants). Please note, however, that lunch will not save you money there, as there is no lunch menu.

[robyn]

Julot - No reason to argue about the consistency point. My goal is to have meals I will enjoy - not argue about the metaphysics of fine dining .

I did take a look at your blog. Read what you wrote about Chef Winkler. Haven't dined there - but I think I would like it. We did dine at Dieter Muller and Vendome last year. Similar type of places - I think. Enjoyed both a lot. What would be similar types of places in Paris these days in terms of style (which I guess would be more on the traditional side as opposed to the Gagnaire side)?

We'll be staying at Le Bristol. The restaurant there looks quite good. Any experiences with it or comments about it? Unless I hear a lot of negatives - we will probably eat there at least once (no reason to stay at a fine hotel and not try its restaurant).

I'll keep following the threads here - your blog - etc. I use Gridskipper too - mostly for design/architecture articles - but don't know how reliable it is in terms of food in Paris. Does anyone here read it - and - if so - is it reliable?

Quite frankly - one of the things I am looking forward to most is simply buying some raw cheeses and great bread - fruit and wine - and having a couple of picnic lunches or light dinners in our hotel room. I used to be able to order raw cheeses from France - but I can't anymore. Robyn

[sethd]

Julot - No reason to argue about the consistency point.  My goal is to have meals I will enjoy - not argue about the metaphysics of fine dining  .

I did take a look at your blog.  Read what you wrote about Chef Winkler.  Haven't dined there - but I think I would like it.  We did dine at Dieter Muller and Vendome last year.  Similar type of places - I think.  Enjoyed both a lot.  What would be similar types of places in Paris these days in terms of style (which I guess would be more on the traditional side as opposed to the Gagnaire side)?

We'll be staying at Le Bristol.  The restaurant there looks quite good.  Any experiences with it or comments about it?  Unless I hear a lot of negatives - we will probably eat there at least once (no reason to stay at a fine hotel and not try its restaurant).

I'll keep following the threads here - your blog - etc.  I use Gridskipper too - mostly for design/architecture articles - but don't know how reliable it is in terms of food in Paris.  Does anyone here read it - and - if so - is it reliable?

Quite frankly - one of the things I am looking forward to most is simply buying some raw cheeses and great bread - fruit and wine - and having a couple of picnic lunches or light dinners in our hotel room.  I used to be able to order raw cheeses from France - but I can't anymore.  Robyn

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I would highly recommend eating at Le Bristol's restaurant. I had three meals there in September, had the entire menu, in fact, and all were wonderful. The only dish I didn't like was the whiting fish. I found it too salty. I would stay away from Taillevent. All the other three stars are wonderful. I would definitely second the opinions of those on this board who love Arpege and Ambrosie.

[julot-les-pinceaux]

Le Bristol is great, especially the poached poularde. In my opinion though, the lunch menu is not worth it. It is quite good but still 90eur and nowhere near the delights of the regular menu/à la carte such as the cinnamon sweetbread or the merlan. Also it used to have the best pastry chef in town (Gilles Marchal) but they replaced him. Pastry still very good, but not standard-setting as it used to be.

Robyn, I understand you just want a meal to enjoy -- But you don't mind that I am interested in the metaphysics of fine dining, do you?

Re: Winkler, one of the reasons I like it is that I don't believe that many restaurants out there offer that kind of archetypical nouvelle cuisine. L'Ambroisie and l'Arpège are the closest in Paris, probably, as they equally dare offering the simplest dishes and make them incredible. Some dishes at Joël Robuchon, too, like sweetbread or fried merlan.

Also worth taking the TGV to Montbard and have Bernard Loiseau's "classiques" in Saulieu (esp. the steamed poularde in truffle season, the red wine sauce Sandre, and the Saint Honoré as a dessert). Roellinger in Cancale and Guérard in Eugénie-les-bains are obviously even further.

[robyn]

...Robyn, I understand you just want a meal to enjoy -- But you don't mind that I am interested in the metaphysics of fine dining, do you?...

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I don't mind at all. And I am interested in these things too. It just seems like every time I get involved in an on-line discussion about these things - I get in a big fight. Some of my messages get deleted - or in the case of OA - I get banished (my specific sin there was arguing that if you were dining at a high level restaurant - you should get great treatment whether or not you are "known" to the restaurant). A person like me who lives in Florida may get to a specific Michelin starred restaurant once - maybe twice - in a lifetime. That's why I think consistency - and having great meals at a place capable of serving great meals regardless of who you know is important.

To give you an example which I have perhaps written about here before (years ago). We had a "food mentor" in Paris. Someone from where we lived - Miami - who had spent 4-6 weeks/year in Paris every year since WWII (he is now dead). He taught us how to dine in Paris and France - and had lots of friends in restaurants all over the country. On one trip - he had obtained very hard to get reservations at Lucas Carton (under Senderens). And he was sick the night of our reservation (bad cold). But he insisted that we dine without him - because it was such a difficult reservation to get. He also insisted that we ask for Claude (I think that was his name) - the maitre d' - when we arrived. Well we arrived - and didn't ask for Claude - and got what in English we call the "bum's rush". Which means that our starters arrived before the sommelier took our wine order. We got a little upset - and finally asked to talk to Claude. He came over about 10 minutes later. We explained that we were friends of Mr. X - that Mr. X was sick - and that the service was unacceptable. At which point - the entire tenor of the meal changed. I don't think this is a proper way to run a high end restaurant.

By the way - thank you very much for your dining suggestions. I look forward to exchanging ideas with you as I start reading more about dining in Paris these days. Robyn

[robyn]

P.S. I guess that sometimes it helps to know people. On one trip - our friend made arrangements for us to dine with Andre Daguin at the Hotel de France in Auch. We were very young. It was the first time we ever ate cooked foie gras - and Chef Daguin put together a very memorable meal for us. I can still remember Cheg Daguin ranting - why didn't Mr. X come with you on this trip? Simple answer is we offered to drive him with us to say hello to one of his favorite people - but he had sustained serious injuries during WWII - and - even when he was in his 60's - it was hard for him to travel. I know I will not be able to recreate our travels and meals in France 20-30 years ago. Times change - people change. But I will do a lot of research to get the most I can get out of this trip. Robyn

[John Talbott]

P.S.  I guess that sometimes it helps to know people.  On one trip - our friend made arrangements for us to dine with Andre Daguin at the Hotel de France in Auch.  We were very young.  It was the first time we ever ate cooked foie gras - and Chef Daguin put together a very memorable meal for us.  I can still remember Cheg Daguin ranting - why didn't Mr. X come with you on this trip?  Simple answer is we offered to drive him with us to say hello to one of his favorite people - but he had sustained serious injuries during WWII - and - even when he was in his 60's - it was hard for him to travel.  I know I will not be able to recreate our travels and meals in France 20-30 years ago.  Times change - people change.  But I will do a lot of research to get the most I can get out of this trip.  Robyn

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I'm not so sure; we arrived at Chez Daguin totally unknown (this was in 1985, before I was famous) and had one incredible all duck meal, a nice stay in the Hotel and a panorama of confitures in the morning that was unforgetable. BTW we were kind of young too (well, at least callow). This was all before the success of Ariane and his son, who at that point was back from DC and cooking alongside Papa.

[robyn]

John - And now that you are famous ?

I am not famous - but I think I may use the concierge desk in Paris for big-deal reservations. I will see how my dealings go with the hotel with respect to things I have to arrange now. Robyn

[sethd]

John - And now that you are famous  ?

I am not famous - but I think I may use the concierge desk in Paris for big-deal reservations.  I will see how my dealings go with the hotel with respect to things I have to arrange now.  Robyn

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The concierge desk at Le Bristol is wonderful. They were able to obtain a reservation at a three star restaurant for me within 24 hours of my eating there, mentioned to the restaurant that I had 9 other starred meals in Paris that week, and I received a complimentary course at lunch.