Pizza crust styles

[paulraphael]

I haven't been able to find an answer to this in the archives, but it's been nagging me. Is there a name for a pizza style that's like neapolitan, but crisper on the outside?

My favorite pizza crusts are airy and chewy in the middle, and crisp, charred, and blistered on the outside.

I can achieve this using Peter Reinhart's Neapolitan Pizza recipe (not as much with the neo neapolitan one). I like authentic Neapolitan style from pizzerias like Una Pizza Neapoletana, but usually wish the crust wasn't so soft in the middle.

[slkinsey]

I'm not sure it's possible to achieve what you are looking for with a home oven.

It sounds like you might like Arturo's down on Houston. They are a coal oven place, but I think they use a lower hydration dough (including salt, which most don't) and a higher gluten flour. The result is a crust that has some lightness, but is also more crisp, strong and chewy than others.

It sounds like what you are describing is that Reinhart describes as "neo-Neapolitan" (meaning places like Patsy's East Harlem, Pizzeria Bianco, Grimaldi's, Sally's, etc.). But those places have the advantage of 900 degree retained heat ovens.

[paulraphael]

I get it consistently with a home oven, using (curiously) Renhart's regular neapolitan recipe.

I'm just curious to know if this is a style that has a name. It might help me find it out in the world.

[slkinsey]

I don't think it has an "official" name. I'd say that Reinhart's "neo-Neapolitan" (which is a designation of his own coinage as far as I know) comes as close as anything else in defining what you describe.

[paulraphael]

Interesting. I assumed that would be for a thinner and floppier crust, since he equates neo-neapolitan with NYC style pizza (but I guess some New Yorkers take issue with him on this).

Edited October 23, 2007 by paulraphael (log)

[slkinsey]

It depends on what you mean by "NYC-Style pizza." There are probably 3 or 4 distinct sub-genres of NYC pizza.

Can you give any examples of places that are serving the style you are looking for?

[JimH]

I haven't been able to find an answer to this in the archives, but it's been nagging me. Is there a name for a pizza style that's like neapolitan, but crisper on the outside?

My favorite pizza crusts are airy and chewy in the middle, and crisp, charred, and blistered on the outside.

I can achieve this using Peter Reinhart's Neapolitan Pizza recipe (not as much with the neo neapolitan one). I like authentic Neapolitan style from pizzerias like Una Pizza Neapoletana, but usually wish the crust wasn't so soft in the middle.

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Try asking here: Pizza.com Be aware that this is the most technical food related forum I have ever seen.

[paulraphael]

Cool site, Jim.

So I looked at their pizza categories, and got the smack-down of smack downs. The style that sounded most similar to my description is "American Style," which includes Domino's!

There must be some mistake!

I promise I don't like domino's.

Is a Neapolitan type crust with added crunch and body really so low class??

[phaelon56]

Is a Neapolitan type crust with added crunch and body really so low class??

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Not for many of us. I love the NYC coal burning oven pizza's like Grimaldi's, Arturo's, Totonno's etc. but I don't live there and can't get pizza like that at any shop in my town. But I do have two shops in town that make a respectable Neopolitan American style (with a recipe that came up here from Staten Island in the mid 1950's).

Have you tried adding a bit (e.g. 20%) of extra fine golden durum type flour? I think it's sometimes sold as XXX fine semolina but any good Italian market can point you to the right product. I use it to add a bit more texture and flavor to my dough. The result is not as soft as the classic Neopolitan style but it works well in my home oven with a pizza stone.

[paulraphael]

I'm going to make a pilgrimage to Patsy's in East Harlem (never been there). I used to go to Grimaldi's a lot when I lived in DUMBO, but must admit i don't rememeber the particulars of the crust. Maybe their style is what I like after all.

When I hear "New York Style" my first thought is the pizza by the slice places ... the dripping soft, bready, foldable crusts. Not my favorite (but I gladly eat it all the time).

At home I've been getting the texture I like with little trouble. I'm not getting much of the complex, developed flavors that I taste at Una Pizza Napoletana in their crust. I'm going to play with longer dough maturation times at some point.

[slkinsey]

Paul, as I said above (and especially if it's more convenient) you should try Arturo's on Houston. The crust there seems most like what you are describing. Patsy's crust is paper thin, charred/crisp on the bottom but light with soft and pliable inner layer. Thinner than the places that are trying for true Neapolitan style, but not with the structure and chewyness you seem to be after.

You might also try Di Fara in Brooklyn. In terms of the crust, I'd say it's the pinacle of the style family that has Domino's at the opposite end of the scale.

[paulraphael]

I've been wanting to try Di Fara for a long time. Are they open again?

[slkinsey]

Yep.

[paulraphael]

Great news. Looks like I have a few field trips ahead.

[paulraphael]

We made the pilgrimage to Patsy's in Harlem last night. It was very good. The crust was thin, but thankfully not "paper thin," as they advertise it. It had a delicate, crackly crispness on the bottom, and was feathery light in the middle. The edges were puffed and chewy.

Compared with Una Pizza Napolitana, the crust was a bit thinner and more crisp. The flavor of the bread was primarily char, which was strong enough to overpower any subtle bread flavors. The Napoletana crust had a more subltle char and prominent nutty, sourdough-like flavors.

The toppings at Napoletana were better quality.

I like the Patsy's style very much, but it's still a bit floppy for my tastes. I prefer the crisp bottom to offer some support for the pizza when you hold it. The crust is also delicate enough that it turns soft and almost soggy within ten minutes.

Definitely worth the trip. Next stops will be Arturo's and DiFara.

[slkinsey]

Yea. Well, for sure Patsy's East Harlem is not baking pizza in the same style as Una Pizza Napoletana. Patsy's is arguably the best example of the NYC coal-fired style which, as you note, does emphasize the charred flavors in the crust whereas the Neapolitan style has more apparent bread flavors. Definitely, in Patsy's you want to order your pizzas one at a time (the best waiters there will usually ask if you want them serially or simultaneously) and you need to eat them quickly. Patsy's is also behind the times with respect to toppings. Personally, I'm not fond of any of their toppings and prefer to go minimal (their Marinara with nothing more than tomato sauce and garlic may be the best they do). Hopefully they'll figure that out and start sourcing better product, as does e.g., Grimaldi's.

I think you'll probably like Arturo's whose crust definitely offers more support to the toppings.