Meatloaf

[Suzanne F]

Geez, FG, I've come to love (or at least like) you -- but for a foodie, you'll always be a lawyer. This is not meant as criticism; I fully understand CYA.

[Fat Guy]

I'm not too concerned about CYA because I don't have enough money to be a worthy defendant; I'm essentially judgment proof! It's more a question of wanting to run the site in such a way as to attract professional contributions. Not that Pierre Franey is going to come post here, but let's say it's someone like, I don't know, Tom Colicchio. I just think we have a diminished chance of getting him to post here if our users are reproducing copyrighted recipes from his book. And in terms of coverage in the mainstream media, it's hard to get a newspaper or magazine to do a piece on you if you're reprinting their material without permission. So it's mostly pragmatic, but also because I'm a writer I have some affinity for the idea of protecting intellectual property.

[rozrapp]

Roz, is that verbatim from one of his cookbooks? If so we shouldn't reproduce it here without permission. Perhaps a citation would be better. Or if it's online a link.

FG, I remembered another situation where you explained to me about quoting verbatim, the legalities, etc. So, even though the recipe was from one of his cookbooks (as well as from a bunch of recipe cards I once ordered), with the exception of the ingredients list, I condensed and changed the wording in the instructions. Come to think of it, I also changed one of the ingredients. (He lists butter; I listed oil.) Does that mean that now the recipe is not truly his recipe anymore?

[Fat Guy]

That seems fine to me. Perhaps just edit your post to say "my adaptation of Pierre Franey's recipe." Thanks!

[Priscilla]

Meatloaf is just one of the best things ever. Ever ever ever. Especially later, in a sandwich.

Bacon draped over, as per Toby and Jaymes, me too. (I put it on diagonally, but this is a personal decision.) Bread soaked in milk as per SA, me too. An egg or two, chopped onion (raw), and any number of other sensible things. I like to see some chopped parsley in there, if possible, e.g.

Big shakes of Crystal or Tabasco, Worcestershire, plenty of s & p, the last little bit of salsa kicking around...mmmm all good. And free-form on a sheet pan or in a roasting pan, that's what I usually do, maximizes the bacon-enhanced crust, although baked in a loaf pan is just a different, not necessarily lesser, trip. Combination of types of meat is good, but all beef ain't nothing to complain about, neither.

[Fat Guy]

Plus, beef is not just some undifferentiated fungible substance. There are lots of cuts of beef that can be ground or chopped into a meatloaf, hamburger, meatball, etc., each with different flavors, textures, and fat-to-meat ratios. Now I haven't done the experiments, but I bet if you followed some of the interesting hamburger advice we've discussed elsewhere (such as Henry Meer's trick of adding some ground brisket into the mix) you'd improve your meatloaf. Also I bet you could do some interesting stuff ala DB Bistro Moderne by laying foie gras or flanken or mushrooms or whatever in the middle of the loaf.

[Jaymes]

Plus, beef is not just some undifferentiated fungible substance. There are lots of cuts of beef that can be ground or chopped into a meatloaf, hamburger, meatball, etc., each with different flavors, textures, and fat-to-meat ratios. Now I haven't done the experiments, but I bet if you followed some of the interesting hamburger advice we've discussed elsewhere (such as Henry Meer's trick of adding some ground brisket into the mix) you'd improve your meatloaf. Also I bet you could do some interesting stuff ala DB Bistro Moderne by laying foie gras or flanken or mushrooms or whatever in the middle of the loaf.

My granny often put something like a whole carrot, or whole hard-boiled eggs down the middle of the meatloaf.

It was just so fun to cut the thing open and marvel at the stuff in the middle. To this day, when I see a magician do the "cut the woman in half" trick, it reminds me somehow of slicing into my grandmother's meatloaf.

[tommy]

but I bet if you followed some of the interesting hamburger advice we've discussed elsewhere (such as Henry Meer's trick of adding some ground brisket into the mix) you'd improve your meatloaf.

you bring up yet another point that i was going to touch on: would it be worth grinding my own meat for meatloaf. certainly if there is value in introducing different cuts it would be worth it.

[Stone]

Do you have a meat grinder, or is a food processor sufficient?

[Fat Guy]

Anything that is made from ground meat will taste even better if made from chopped meat. This is another point I made on one of the burger threads. If you take two sharp chef's knives and go to work on some cubes of meat, you will get something very memorable. I'm trying to think of an analogy, and the closest I can come up with is deli-slicer pastrami or turkey versus hand-carved. Does that make sense?

[tommy]

Do you have a meat grinder, or is a food processor sufficient?

both. i'm getting good results with the meat grinder (attachment on my mixer).

[Stone]

Anything that is made from ground meat will taste even better if made from chopped meat. This is another point I made on one of the burger threads. If you take two sharp chef's knives and go to work on some cubes of meat, you will get something very memorable. I'm trying to think of an analogy, and the closest I can come up with is deli-slicer pastrami or turkey versus hand-carved. Does that make sense?

FG -- I know you go crazy for hand carving. But if the slicer is set for thicker slices, is there a difference? Does the pressure of the knife do anything for the texture of the meat?

[CathyL]

Last time I was on the Atkins diet (briefly - it makes me psychotic) I tinkered with Bruce Aidells' recipe. Instead of breadcrumbs to bind, I used shredded mild cheese and egg.

After the 2nd or 3rd iteration, it became a game to see how much fat and cholesterol I could pack in. Bacon grease to sweat the onion, garlic, red pepper; sour cream; egg yolks; 1/2 lb. of coarsely chopped andouille to 1 lb chuck and 1/2 lb each pork and veal. Turkey works fine too. Seasonings: Worcestershire, Dijon mustard, ground cumin, chipotle.

Packed into a lined loaf pan and chilled, it holds its shape when umolded onto a rack over a shallow pan. Not too shallow - a lot of fat escapes during roasting. A rest before slicing, which it does nicely.

Yes, Priscilla, sandwiches. With chutney! Maybe I'll make meat loaf tomorrow night.

[Priscilla]

While I do not by any means always grind meat especially for meatloaf, sometimes I do and it is always worth it.

Reminded me of something else, though--using the KitchenAid to mix the meatloaf. I know, I know I know I know, hands are the time-honored way and I got nothing against that, God knows. But what I do now, usually, is get the bread & milk on to soak (in the KA bowl), and when critical squishyness is reached add the eggs and seasonings and mix that, before putting in the meat and onion and whatnot. (A hint from somebody's mom long ago, about putting the seasonings in the liquid part. Made immediate sense to me.) And then mix the whole shebang with the flat beater going slowly. More thorough and gentle enough, is my thinking.

Yes, of COURSE, CathyL, yet another vehicle for chutney--I am so making meatloaf right quick here.

[tommy]

is no one tempted to do something a little less traditional? something with indian type spices? or thai ingredients with a coconut milk sauce?

[Jaymes]

Yes, of COURSE, CathyL, yet another vehicle for chutney--I am so making meatloaf right quick here.

CathyL & Priscilla --

What kind of chutney do you prefer on your meatloaf??

[Fat Guy]

FG -- I know you go crazy for hand carving.  But if the slicer is set for thicker slices, is there a difference?  Does the pressure of the knife do anything for the texture of the meat?

I have several theories but no proof. Here were the speculations I put together when writing about pastrami:

"Many characteristics contribute to good pastrami, and I prefer a spicy, salty, aggressive example. Also, it seems beyond question that Pastrami and its cousins are best when carved by hand, as opposed to sliced on a machine with a rapidly spinning blade. Such insistence admittedly sounds retrograde and idiosyncratic, but most serious deli eaters share a strong and justified preference for hand carving. Machine slicing is violent: The saw-like blade tears at the meat and cuts through whatever fibers, striations, and other things are in the way. The knife, by contrast, makes a gentle cut, the human hand and eye working together with the blade to conform more to the natural grain of the meat (this affects primarily texture). Also, slicing machines typically produce thinner slices while the irregular, rustic slices that result from hand carving remain juicier and more toothsome. (This is also the case with turkey and roast beef, though it seems not to be true of sausage-like products such as salami.) These natural slices, moreover, mound up rather than clump together, they maintain their natural juiciness, and they present a more robust flavor. Furthermore, as an issue of integrity, a deli that hews to tradition and slices its meat by hand is more likely to take greater care with the other aspects of preparation. It's a crying shame that more places don't hand-carve their pastrami as a matter of course (Katz's is currently the only one that does). The standard excuses have to do with labor costs and the difficulty of training people to hand-carve meat. Give me a break: We're talking about slicing meat with a knife. So important is this issue that, unless I'm working on a food writing project or I grow particularly desperate, I never eat pastrami outside of Katz's."

[nyfirepatrolchef]

ground turkey...and a whole bunch of stuff...salt, pepper , chopped garlic and onion , no wheat soy sauce, ground fennel seed, sage, egg, grated potato.

If you want specifics, let me know and Ill try to come up with some. I do mosty of it visually.

[torakris]

I love the crust the on meatloaf, so I always bake it free form. I make the Cook's Illustrated (in The Best Recipe) version and love it, close to the taste of my mom's but even better. I skip the bacon and brown sugar glaze and spread the top with ketchup (just like mom did!). My Japanese mother inlaw loves this meatloaf and at least twice a month she brings me 2kg of ground beef and pork mix to make two loaves one for her and one for us.

I especially love it the next day cold in a sandwich with ketchup, but the way my 3 kids eat it there are rarely leftovers.

[=Mark]

One great way to add cholesterol and fat to your current meatloaf recipe is to take your current recipe and squish it down to about an inch thick, 8 0r 10 inches wide and about 18 inches long on a piece of waxed paper. Place several slices of swiss or gruyere cheese on the mix, then roll it up like a giant joint using the wax paper to roll it up (you don't have to inhale).

Pat the ends closed and bake, preferably with a tomato mustard glaze, serve and stand your arteries against the wall...

[Jason Perlow]

One great way to add cholesterol and fat to your current meatloaf recipe is to take your current recipe and squish it down to about an inch thick, 8 0r 10 inches wide and about 18 inches long on a piece of waxed paper.  Place several slices of swiss or gruyere cheese on the mix, then roll it up like a giant joint using the wax paper to roll it up (you don't have to inhale).

Pat the ends closed and bake, preferably with a tomato mustard glaze, serve and stand your arteries against the wall... 

Don't they list this as a crime against humanity in some countries?

[CathyL]

What kind of chutney do you prefer on your meatloaf??

Jaymes, the only chutney with which I am intimately acquainted is Suvir's Tomato. It must be fabulous with meatloaf because it's fabulous with everything I've dolloped it on so far. Except breakfast cereal, and that's only because I have none.

[Rachel Perlow]

I keep reading about being careful not to overmix or the meatloaf will be dense. So? Meatloaf is a descendant of country pate and that stuff is very dense, made even more so by weighing it down during cooking. If it's too airy won't it just crumble and fall apart when you cook it? Just mix the damn thing and don't freak out about over mixing.

Oh, and while Taco the Octopus' version sounds good (see link above), he suggested freeform shaping it into a loaf 16 inches long, 5 inches wide and 1.5 inches high. That's the dimensions for mandelbrod or biscotti, not meatloaf. You want to shape it in the loaf pan so it is loaf shaped. The better to fit on the loaf shaped white bread for those sandwiches!

[phaelon56]

Us yoyur favorite prep method and ingredients but then get a smalll brown paper lunch bag and pack the meatloaf mix into it, forming a loaf and folding the bag und before placing it in a baking dish (pyrex or glass is fine). The paper absorbs the grease but also seals in moisture in the way that cooking en papillote does. It looks a bit bizarre when the cooking is finished but this has made the best meatloaf I've ever eaten.

[Suzanne F]

Phaelon, do you have to worry about what might be in the paper (like chemicals, dyes, etc.), or can you just go for it? Sounds like a great idea to me; I'm just wondering whether you have to use "clean" bags?