Per Se: An Interesting Story

[Fat Guy]

I've had obnoxious service at the French Laundry. It can happen. I'm sure Thomas Keller (or Danny Meyer, et al.) would be the first to say that, despite the incredible lengths to which his organization goes to train its service staff, the servers are ingenious at coming up with new and inventive ways to mess up. I've had obnoxious service at a couple of the best restaurants in Europe too, including Taillevent, which is legendary for having the best service in the world. Maybe it does, but not the day I was there, not the server I had that day. Any restaurant, on any given day, can mess up. That's axiomatic in any business where people interact with people. But some things are more understandable than others. When we get to the things that make no sense at all, chances are we're looking at miscommunication and misinterpretation. That can happen too.

[Jesikka]

While I was at L'Arpege, Laurent Lapaire - one of the best restaurant managers - just visited Les Ambassadeurs the week before. My maitre d'hotel at Ledoyen often visited L'Ambroisie. I think it's true that cultural difference and customs play important roles here. When I had lunch at Les Ambassadeurs, I was stunned when I saw a couple only wearing T-shirts, then even more surprised at the another table, a guy wore a plain collarless T-shirt and jeans - well guess what, where were they from? They're American. Though the staffs might not be too happy, perhaps since the restaurant only half-filled, they just did not care as much, but I've never seen this for dinner in Europe's starred restaurants.

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This does not comport with my experience at all. When we visited L'Arpege, Dave H and I were by far the most formally dressed people in the room (I was wearing a cocktail dress and he was wearing a suit). The other patrons, all of whom were European, were dressed quite casually. We had actually been warned ahead of time that many French "regulars" would dress casually, but we made a decision to dress up based on what made us feel the most comfortable. Perhaps lunch is slightly different, but I haven't seen people underdressed in American four stars either. I have always been under the impression that men cannot even enter Jean Georges, Per Se, etc without a jacket- a policy which they reiterate when you reserve. I certainly have never seen someone wearing jeans. I've never been to Les Ambassadeurs, but I'm not sure "they're American" is sufficient explanation for what you saw.

[Nathan]

Mick Jagger was allowed to wear jeans at Per Se...but my understanding is that was the only such occasion.

I'd say jackets are still de rigueur on men in NY four stars....and Chicago for that matter. Miami and L.A. are more casual.

[Megan Blocker]

heck..it'd be impossible for the Per Se menu to be served in a 1.75 hours.  I could see them telling a late party that they only had 3 hours.

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I had a 9:45 reservation there in April. We closed the restaurant, and felt no pressure (quite the opposite - the staff became friendlier and chatted with us) to leave.

[Carlovski]

I agree with Fat Guy - it's all economics.

I'm sure if Alain Ducasse opened a restaurant in Berlin (for example), with a smaller population and a culture of later dining it would be financial suicide to have 2 sittings (Plus I am sure the ground rent is much lower so)

The financial situation is that at the top end of dining, if they didn't turn tables they would have to increase prices accordingly. I would rather have the chance to eat at such restaurants twice, maybe in a slightly more compressed time than I would choose, than only be able to afford to go once.

[robyn]

A lot of points have been discussed here. I'll try to give my thoughts on some of them.

First - I think the maitre d' who told me the story - and perhaps it was apocryphal - did it to make a point. Simply that he thought patrons of a world class restaurant all deserve world class treatment - and that multiple seatings which extend dining into abnormally early and late hours aren't compatible with world class treatment. I agree with him - but your mileage may vary.

FWIW - now that Per Se has been open for about 3 years - is it easy to get a reservation? Or do you still have to do that speed dial thing exactly X days in advance at exactly Y o'clock to get a 5:30 reservation? In other words - do the multiple seatings really increase access for the average diner?

Note that the restaurant this maitre d' works at is open from 7 to 11 for dinner - that's it. A single seating. Same at the other 3 star restaurant we dined at. So no one is ever going to have dinner in an empty restaurant.

Also - remember that this gentlemen wasn't the person who ordered the wine. His companion did. On this trip - they also dined at Masa - JG - and other places I forget. So the companion apparently has a lot of money - and isn't shy about throwing it around to make a point or amuse himself. After hearing today about the Hamptons dispute between 2 very rich people regarding the width of a shared beach access path - it's clear he wouldn't be the first or last rich person to use money this way to get what he wanted.

Now I can't say that our meal at Per Se was particularly rushed - but it wasn't slow either. We had one of those miserable 5:30 reservations - and we were out on the street by 8 or so. Although I enjoyed the food at Per Se - I did not enjoy dining at 5:30 and won't do so again at any restaurant unless I have bad jet lag.

But this issue goes beyond Per Se. There are certainly high end restaurants that give people the bum's rush - and they aren't all in the US (although many are). We had dinner at one highly regarded restaurant in Chicago where the service was so fast we would have been out of the place in an hour had we not told them to slow down. And - after almost 2 hours - we were told in no uncertain terms that if we wanted coffee and after dinner drinks - we would have to take them at the bar. In other words - we were kicked out of our table. This restauarant was later cited in a WSJ article about the worst high end restaurants in the US in terms of trying to turn over tables too many times in a night.

But - like I said - this doesn't happen only in the US. If you look at the Gordon Ramsay RHR website - it says it reserves the right to limit your dinner to 2 hours. Which is why we ate lunch there. At any restaurant which is not a single seating restaurant - this is simply a risk you take if you are dining early. On the other hand - if you are dining late - you may wind up being seated well after the time of your scheduled reservation if the party before you is allowed to linger too long.

On my part - I don't get to town often . And - when I do - and am spending a large amount of money on a meal - I want to eat dinner at dinner time - and spend as much or as little time as I care to spend enjoying my meal. So I try to stick with single seating restaurants. Do they cost more than multiple seating restaurants? I don't know. It's hard for me to compare since the costs of doing business vary from country to country. And even when I'm dealing with the same city - like comparing ADNY and Per Se - I'm talking about meals I ate years apart (2001 and 2004). And now ADNY is closed and Per Se is a lot more expensive than it was when I dined there.

In any event - although it is comparing apples and oranges - if you dine at Per Se today - you are limited to 1 of 2 fixed $250 tasting menus. Plus liquor - tax and 20% tip. At a place like Vendome - there are 2 tasting menus (large one is about $200) - and there is also an extensive a la carte menu - which will probably run about $150 for 3 courses. Plus liquor - tax - and a small or no tip (Germany is pretty much a "service included" kind of country). So the single seating in Germany is cheaper - although the cost of doing business in a suburb in Germany is certainly lower than the cost of doing business in NYC. These and related prices (like hotel prices) may not determine where you dine if you happen to live in NYC or Cologne - but they can influence a decision about where to take a trip.

On an unrelated note - I recall that the other 3 star restaurants in Germany (and I think there are only 4 others) - are a lot more out of the way. But there is certainly excellent dining in the middle of things - particularly in Berlin. Which I think is an up and coming food city - an excellent city to visit for other reasons - and certainly one of the last travel values left in western Europe. For example - we dined at Vitrum - our hotel restaurant. The chef there - who is a rising star in Germany - got his first Michelin star a couple of years ago. And in accordance with Michelin tradition in Europe - he will have to wait patiently for his second star (which I think he deserves) - and then improve and wait some more to try to get his third. I will continue my thoughts about this in the Germany forum.

Finally - I agree that any restaurant can screw up. The issue is what happens after it screws up. I had made our reservations at Vendome six months in advance through the hotel (where the restaurant is located). The hotel staff failed to communicate our reservation to the restaurant - so - when we arrived for dinner - there was no table for us. The maitre d' gave us some champagne - and proceeded to set up a table in an unused alcove. The table wasn't in the main dining room - and I was disappointed by the seating (although not by the food or the service). When we mentioned the mistake to the hotel staff early the next morning (we were checking out) - they were mortified. They proceeded to comp us 120 euros worth of limo rides (from the train station to the hotel - and from the hotel to the airport). And they presented us with a gift basket - a teddy bear - and excellent bottles of olive oil and vinegar. Had to decline the liquids because I would have had to pack them before we got on our connecting flight in the US - and I had nightmarish thoughts of broken bottles. But it was the thought that counted. And I left very satisfied at how the establishment had handled the mistake. Robyn

[slkinsey]

...if you dine at Per Se today - you are limited to 1 of 2 fixed $250 tasting menus.  Plus liquor - tax and 20% tip.

Um... There is no need to tip 20% at Per Se. It is "service included."

Edited June 13, 2007 by slkinsey (log)

[docsconz]

In any event - although it is comparing apples and oranges - if you dine at Per Se today - you are limited to 1 of 2 fixed $250 tasting menus.  Plus liquor - tax and 20% tip. 

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Excellent overall post, Robyn, but I must quibble on one point. If I am not mistaken, the price at Per Se is inclusive of service.

[robyn]

That's a false dichotomy. Capitalism favors good service. Just try getting good service in a non-capitalist restaurant. Good luck with that. All the restaurants with Michelin stars everywhere in the world operate under principles of capitalism. The issue isn't capitalism versus service, it's how to serve your market. The markets in the US and Europe are simply different.

When Per Se opened, it had one sitting. So did Alain Ducasse at the Essex House -- a restaurant operated by the chef who operates more Michelin-starred restaurants than I can keep track of. But, eventually, both went over to the 1.5 sitting model, where about half the tables in the restaurant (the early and late reservations) are re-seated and the other half (the ones with reservations in the middle of the evening) are not.

Why? Because that's what the New York market demanded...

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Just curious. Are there really a whole lot of New Yorkers beating down the door to eat at Per Se at 5:30 so they can catch a show? My impression reading posts from certain members here is that the reservation process is still such a hassle that they don't want to deal with it to eat there whether or not they're going to a show.

And just personally - I don't think dining at a 3 star Michelin restaurant is something most people squeeze in before or after something else. It's an evening. Although I'm sure there is a super rarified class of people for whom it's just another meal. Robyn

[robyn]

I agree with Fat Guy - it's all economics.

I'm sure if Alain Ducasse opened a restaurant in Berlin (for example), with a smaller population and a culture of later dining it would be financial suicide to have 2 sittings (Plus I am sure the ground rent is much lower so)

The financial situation is that at the top end of dining, if they didn't turn tables they would have to increase prices accordingly. I would rather have the chance to eat at such restaurants twice, maybe in a slightly more compressed time than I would choose, than only be able to afford to go once.

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Berlin is actually the second largest city in the EU (city has a population of about 3.5 million and the metro area has a population of about 5 million). Robyn

[robyn]

...if you dine at Per Se today - you are limited to 1 of 2 fixed $250 tasting menus.  Plus liquor - tax and 20% tip.

Um... There is no need to tip 20% at Per Se. It is "service included."

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Mea culpa. Service was not included when we dined there. But the large fixed price menu was about $150 (if I recall correctly) - and there was an extensive semi a la carte menu too (the kind of menu where you get about 5 courses - and have multiple choices in each category). Robyn

[Fat Guy]

FWIW - now that Per Se has been open for about 3 years - is it easy to get a reservation?  Or do you still have to do that speed dial thing exactly X days in advance at exactly Y o'clock to get a 5:30 reservation?  In other words - do the multiple seatings really increase access for the average diner?

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50% more diners can be accommodated by 1.5 sittings than by 1.

Are there really a whole lot of New Yorkers beating down the door to eat at Per Se at 5:30 so they can catch a show?

Per Se isn't just a restaurant for New Yorkers. It's a destination for visitors as well. But yes, there are plenty of people who try to do two things in an evening. It's not possible to catch 8pm theater comfortably after dinner at Per Se, but there are, for example, plenty of music performances that start at 9:30 and 10:00pm. People who might visit New York once a year or once in a lifetime understandably want to pack as much into the visit as possible, and plenty of locals dine out at the luxury level so often that it's just not that big a deal -- they want to get dinner and move on.

But really, it's just silly to project one's own personal preferences onto the entire population. People choose to dine at 5:30 for a variety of reasons: 1- because they just plain like to eat early (I count myself in this category -- the only time I ever make a reservation later than 6pm is when schedules or guests demand it), 2- because they want to do something after dinner, 3- because that's the only available reservation and it's better than not being able to eat at the restaurant at all. Sometimes people regret making choice number 3, and therefore feel the need to complain about it forever, but it's just that: a choice.

[chefboy24]

Of course you get better service if you order a $2,000 bottle of wine!

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<smacking head> So that's what I've been doing wrong </smacking head>

Let me get this straight: Successful German restaurateur eats at successful US restaurant, feels his approach to running a restaurant is superior, tells a somewhat embellished tale of the experience to prove his point, and on this basis we can now definitively state that European dining is better than US dining?

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winner.

[robyn]

OK - I will take your word for it that people who are younger than my living/late parents and in-laws really enjoy eating at 5:30. Even my father (89) hated dining at 5-6 when he moved to a senior independent living facility after my mother died - but - in the end - he got used to it. Perhaps it's a family trait I inherited .

As for doing everything when one travels - the older I get - the slower I travel. And the less willing I am to put up with BS - which includes not only dining at ungodly hours - but waiting in interminable lines - or dealing with huge crowds. We were unlucky to hit Cologne during a major festival - Kirchentag - which is a biannual religious gathering in Germany which happened to be in Cologne this year. 150,000 people who basically took over the city - and made normal tourism almost impossible. We spent one day in Cologne - and then opted to spend our second day in the area in a smaller city (much more pleasant).

But - like you said - it is all a matter of personal preference. Although sometimes I think travelers do things just to say they've done them - as opposed to actually enjoying their experiences. Robyn

[Fat Guy]

I think at this time I'd like to add an anecdote to the topic.

A few months ago, five friends came down from Canada. Various business obligations made their schedules unpredictable, so it wasn't until around noon one day that the ringleader called and said they were free for dinner. Oh, and they wanted to go to "the best new restaurant in town."

So I called the Modern, and I said, "Hi, do you have a table for seven people available this evening by any chance." And the answer I got, in the most polite Danny-Meyer-trained language possible, was, essentially, "Are you fucking crazy?" So I said, okay, is there a manager I can speak to? I was put through to Graceanne Jordan, and I said, hey, I know it's a long shot, but seriously, tell me what you have on your book tonight. Turns out, they had a 9pm reservation at their eight-top. So, okay, I said how about we come in the second you open, and we'll be sure to move things along and be out by 8:45?

No no, said Graceanne Jordan, we don't like to set time limits, and we find that three hours is really tight for a large party. And I was like, look, this is consensual. We want to eat there. My friends are in from Canada. They come once or twice a year. This is the night they're free. We'll skip the cheese course. We'll have coffee in the bar room if things run long. I promise we won't complain. Please, please, please. And she said, and I quote, "I'm finding it hard to say no to you," and she made the reservation. We had a great meal -- we even had time for cheese and for a couple of extra courses that the kitchen sent out -- and the people coming in at 9pm were probably late anyway.

If that's not a win-win situation, I don't know what is. The restaurant made about $1,500 extra for the night, the servers got extra tips, and we got the dinner we wanted. Everybody was happy. Now, I can assure you, if I called up a Michelin three-star restaurant in Europe and tried to have that negotiation, the seven of us would have been eating dinner at Brasserie Flo or some other lame-ass place. So which system is better? Which system represents better "customer service"? I guess it depends on your perspective. If you're one of the customers lucky enough to be safely ensconced inside the 7-11pm window, it's great that the table is yours for the evening. If you're the customer who gets turned away even though there's an empty table, three hours, and plenty of food, you're likely not to think it's such a great system.

[Nathan]

as I was implying above, NY is the best city in the world for last-minute fine-dining.

[robyn]

When I travel 3 or 5 or 13 thousand miles - just about nothing is last minute. From hotel and restaurant reservations - to theater tickets - to booking guides I found at a very early age that traveling long distance with no reservations kind of sucks (you are always settling for second or third or fourth best from what you'd really like to be doing).

As a person who travels on discretionary vacations - I find the event that usually locks in my dates is getting the flights I want on FF miles - so trips are usually booked 6-11 months in advance. No reason not to make all the other reservations far in advance too. Of course - if one has a last minute trip for any variety of reasons (ranging from business to family problems) - the rules of the game change.

As for dining at the last minute - we didn't have any problems booking 1 star Michelin restaurants in large cities a day or two in advance on weekdays. You only get into problems booking the 3 stars (any day of the week). Robyn

[DutchMuse]

I think at this time I'd like to add an anecdote to the topic.

A few months ago, five friends came down from Canada. Various business obligations made their schedules unpredictable, so it wasn't until around noon one day that the ringleader called and said they were free for dinner. Oh, and they wanted to go to "the best new restaurant in town."

...... I can assure you, if I called up a Michelin three-star restaurant in Europe and tried to have that negotiation, the seven of us would have been eating dinner at Brasserie Flo or some other lame-ass place. So which system is better? Which system represents better "customer service"?

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FG

Why couldn't you have had a similar experience at a Michelin ** or *** restaurant? Listen to this anecdote.

Less than a year ago, I made a reservation at Le Cinq in Paris (at that time Michelin ***, now **) and stupid me, I showed up 1 night too early--a Sat night when the rez was for Sun night. Long story short....I negotiated back and forth as you did.....I was there at 7:30....they had a 9:15 reservation... I persuaded them to give me the table until 9 and then I and my companion would move to the foyer and have cheese and dessert. After some talking (just as you did), they agreed and it worked beautifully.

It did happen in Paris at (then) a *** restaurant. Why would you think it couldn't happen?

Edited June 14, 2007 by DutchMuse (log)

[Fat Guy]

That kind of behavior can cost you a star!

[oakapple]

FWIW - now that Per Se has been open for about 3 years - is it easy to get a reservation?  Or do you still have to do that speed dial thing exactly X days in advance at exactly Y o'clock to get a 5:30 reservation?  In other words - do the multiple seatings really increase access for the average diner?

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It might be a bit easier to get a reservation there than it was 3 years ago. But only a bit. I mean, just call the restaurant and try booking a table for a random night less than two months away. You might get lucky, but you probably won't.

Per Se isn't the only New York restaurant like this, though it's the best known example. Recently, the g/f and I visited Blue Hill at Stone Barns. Like Per Se, they accept reservations starting at 10:00 a.m., two months to the day in advance. I called at around 11:00, and the only times they could offer me were 5:30 and 9:45. I took 5:30.

For big "occasion" meals like that, I generally eat very little for breakfast and lunch, so I'm just fine with eating at 5:30. Granted, if the book were wide open, I'd choose a later time, but 5:30 doesn't really bother me.

[oakapple]

All the restaurants with Michelin stars everywhere in the world operate under principles of capitalism.

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That's largely true, though there are some well known counter-examples. If El Bulli were the hypothetical profit-maximizing capitalist enterprise that you learn about in Economics class, it wouldn't be closed 6 months a year.

[Fat Guy]

If your definition of capitalist is "profit maximizing" then, sure, any decision that doesn't maximize profit (giving to charity, taking a day off, trying to make your product better even though it won't make you any more money) is anti-capitalist. But of course, as you learned about in Economics class, that's not what the word means.

In any event, what DutchMuse was really saying was that American restaurants seek to maximize profit while European restaurants seek to maximize service. And that's just not the case. For one thing, in many cases profit maximization and service maximization go hand in hand. For another thing, there are plenty of American examples of businesses that could make more money but choose instead to prioritize other goals -- Per Se would be a good example of a business where demand exceeds supply yet the restaurant hasn't raised its prices to maximize the supply-demand equation in its favor, so is essentially subsidizing your meal out of idealism and dedication to principles other than profit maximization. And for still another thing, profit maximization is a complex process that can involve much more than this month's balance sheet. The loss leader, the long-term investment, the investment in goodwill, the assigning of value to non-monetary goals (pleasure, recognition, etc.) . . . these are all part of the system.

[adegiulio]

Mick Jagger was allowed to wear jeans at Per Se...but my understanding is that was the only such occasion.

I'd say jackets are still de rigueur on men in NY four stars....and Chicago for that matter.  Miami and L.A. are more casual.

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The night we were at per se (only a few months after they opened), there was a guy wearing jeans. He looked pretty important.

The post above the one I am responding to mentioned that the more casually dressed diners were in fact locals as opposed to Americans. At l'Arpege, I can attest to that. We were by far the best dressed, with maybe a 1/4 of the men not wearing jackets. Heck, the whole atmosphere seemed casual, almost too casual. Fantastic food though...

[Nathan]

All the restaurants with Michelin stars everywhere in the world operate under principles of capitalism.

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That's largely true, though there are some well known counter-examples. If El Bulli were the hypothetical profit-maximizing capitalist enterprise that you learn about in Economics class, it wouldn't be closed 6 months a year.

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that's not necessarily true at all.

corporations donate monies to charity and the fine arts under the economic justification that such acts create goodwill and in the long run enhance corporate profits. there's a reason why tobacco and liquor companies tend to donate the most and why WalMart did some very generous giving in Katrina relief. of course, if a public corporation donates too much then its corporate officers can be found to have violated their fiduciary duty...in other words, corporate charity is supposed to be economically justified...it is a profit maximizing activity.

as for El Bulli...part of the restaurant's cachet and appeal is the massive reinvention it undergoes every year....which necessitates the time-off period. furthermore, this constant reinvention underlies Adria's reputation thus providing the economic foundation for his other (and other planned) money-making endeavours. so, yeah, El Bulli probably is intended to be profit-maximizing.

[Fat Guy]

Nathan, I agree that oftentimes when a business does something that doesn't appear to maximize profit, it's actually part of a larger plan to maximize profit. For example, a money-losing restaurant in a hotel may be a loss-leader calculated to bring prestige to the hotel. A flagship money-losing restaurant may be calculated to lend cachet to a chef, who can then make the serious money operating mid-priced restaurants. Donations to charity, participation in idealistic-seeming movements, etc., can all be calculated to maximize profit.

Or not. As opposed to a public corporation, a privately held business (typical for a restaurant) has no obligation to maximize profit. The capitalist system says a business is private property, and can be disposed of any way the owner likes: it can be used to maximize profit, it can be used to maximize pleasure, it can be used to do good -- often those three goals are even in alignment, but if they're not there's no law of capitalism that says you have to maximize profit. While there are plenty of profit-maximizers out there, there are also plenty of people who are content to make enough money to break even and apply the rest of their time, energy and revenues to pursuing various other goals and ideals.

On the issue of dining early, a little while back I started a topic about the joys of dining early. Among other things, I said:

I like to eat dinner early. For me, the best time to eat dinner is virtually the second the restaurant opens for dinner.

First, it's easier to get a reservation. I get so many e-mails complaining that "they only offered me 5:30 and 10:30." Great! There's no better time to eat dinner than 5:30, and they just offered it to you.

Second, by definition the restaurant is empty when you arrive. This means three things: you can have pretty much your pick of table, you have the undivided attention of the waitstaff during the critical early phases of the meal (menu questions, wine ordering, rapport building, etc.) and the place is quiet.

Third, I find it physically unpleasant to eat late. An extensive, rich meal with wines isn't something I want to be finishing up at midnight. It's such a pleasure to have a wonderful meal starting at 5:30 and to be home in time for Gilmore Girls, relaxation, conversation and comfortable sleep. (Yes, I also prefer eating on Tuesdays, when in-demand restaurants are at their emptiest).

Quite a few people agreed with the sentiment, came out of the closet as aficionados of the early bird special and gave additional justifications.