Culinary Travelers

[annecros]

There is no doubt that those who happen to travel to Florida or live there already can eat well. The state certainly has very good restaurants - but restaurants or food that people specifically travel to Florida for?  Richard Blais and Norman Van Aken are two chefs who I would seek out, but I believe Blais is not currently running a restaurant.

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Blais is gone - back in Atlanta - doing some catering (how long did he last - 6 months?). I think Van Aken is probably over the hill. At least with Norman's. I have not heard anything about his place at the Ritz Carlton in Orlando that makes me want to dine there. Quite frankly - I cannot recommend a single city in Florida as a dining destination. Although there are reasons to go to lots of locations in the state - everything from golf to diving to kayaking to art - and decent places to eat once you get here. Robyn

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robyn,

Just asking, and hoping I am not too forward but curious, where do you eat in Florida?

[annecros]

This got me thinking about food festivals, and honestly Seafood Festivals in Florida are hard to get away from. Anytime I hit the road, on any of the coasts, it seems as if I run into a seafood festival.

Besides that:

There is the South Beach Food and Wine Festival

and The Florida Strawberry Festival

and COEX

and SNAXPO

and Coral Gables Wine and Food Festival

and that is just this month, and doesn't include the big Seafood festival in Marathon, that is a huge one. There is one around every corner.

With all these food festivals, isn't it logical to assume that the thousands that walk through them actually travel to get there?

[robyn]

robyn,

Just asking, and hoping I am not too forward but curious, where do you eat in Florida?

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What part of Florida? It's a big state. And we travel around the state a fair amount (although we haven't been west of Tallahassee or south of Miami for over 5 years). I've written up most of the places I've liked over the years here in other threads.

We live a little south of Jacksonville these days - and Opus 39 (St. Augustine) is hands down the best in terms of fine dining in this neck of the woods (and better than most places in the state). There are other pretty good places here (bb's and Bistro Aix and Biscotti's in Jacksonville - Eleven South in Jax Beach - Restaurant Medure in Ponte Vedra come to mind). But I eat at Golden Corral too (like to eat vegetarian out a few times a week - and it has lots of good veggies). Also some ethnic restaurants (with Red Chilies - Jax finally has good Indian food). Like some chains. Stonewood Grill (for excellent grilled trout) - and Maggione's (for a simple pasta lunch).

We used to eat in south Florida more in the past than we will in the future. We lived in Miami for over 20 years - and continued to visit my parents in north Broward until my mom died - and my father moved here last year. Boca (near where my parents lived) was always kind of a wasteland - and difficult dining (due to the demands of elderly parents) - but my favorites were Legal Seafoods (really good chain fish house - I always like a good fresh grilled fish) and Big City Tavern (just ok food - but great martinis - necessary for visiting parents ).

Have enjoyed some places in Palm Beach. Cafe Boulud. L'Escalier (have read some negative reviews about it recently though).

In Miami (our accountant's still there - so we visit) - Casa Tua is one favorite that is still there. Think the chef at the Ritz Carlton in Coconut Grove (he makes a mean rabbit canneloni) is still there. Other places we liked (like Mosaico) have lost their chefs (the chef from Mosaico is now at the Ritz Carlton at Amelia Island) - or are gone altogether.

I frequently like to eat breakfast for lunch - and won't pass up a Waffle House or Village Inn when I'm in that mood.

Nothing in the Sarasota area was memorable (although I recall a nice open air bar with a pretty view). Orlando is pretty much a wasteland except for a Japanese restaurant (Ran Getsu) we dined at last year. Dixie Crossroads in Titusville is always worth a stop.

I'm pretty much rambling. We eat all kinds of food at all kinds of places. All over Florida - the US - and other parts of the world when we travel. And we eat out a lot (our restaurant bills are second in our budget - medical expenses are the only thing that's higher). Any specific information you're looking for? Robyn

[robyn]

This got me thinking about food festivals, and honestly Seafood Festivals in Florida are hard to get away from. Anytime I hit the road, on any of the coasts, it seems as if I run into a seafood festival...

With all these food festivals, isn't it logical to assume that the thousands that walk through them actually travel to get there?

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Thousands - tens of thousands. When's the last time you went to one that you enjoyed? We have the Isle of Eight Flags Shrimp Festival at Amelia Island. It is a total zoo - horrible (unless your tastes run to cut off tshirts and lots of beer). Enough to give our otherwise wonderful shrimp a bad name. Whenever I hear the phrase "food festival" - it's enough to make me run in the other direction. Some street festivals - like the fall arts festival in Gainesville - are a lot more civilized (and you can get great smoked turkey legs there). Robyn

[annecros]

I'm pretty much rambling.  We eat all kinds of food at all kinds of places.  All over Florida - the US - and other parts of the world when we travel.  And we eat out a lot (our restaurant bills are second in our budget - medical expenses are the only thing that's higher).  Any specific information you're looking for?  Robyn

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Nothing specific, just curiosity. You are obviously very descriminating in your food choices, and we travel the length of the state from time to time to visit relatives located in JAX, Savannah, Georgia and Panama City. Always on the lookout. Thanks.

Edited March 13, 2007 by annecros (log)

[annecros]

This got me thinking about food festivals, and honestly Seafood Festivals in Florida are hard to get away from. Anytime I hit the road, on any of the coasts, it seems as if I run into a seafood festival...

With all these food festivals, isn't it logical to assume that the thousands that walk through them actually travel to get there?

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Thousands - tens of thousands. When's the last time you went to one that you enjoyed? We have the Isle of Eight Flags Shrimp Festival at Amelia Island. It is a total zoo - horrible (unless your tastes run to cut off tshirts and lots of beer). Enough to give our otherwise wonderful shrimp a bad name. Whenever I hear the phrase "food festival" - it's enough to make me run in the other direction. Some street festivals - like the fall arts festival in Gainesville - are a lot more civilized (and you can get great smoked turkey legs there). Robyn

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The Goombay Festival in Key West. I like the Marathon Seafood Festival. We go to SunFest in West Palm every year, and though the primary draw is the entertainment and the boats there is always good food. Calle Ocho was last weekend, I didn't go but have been in the past.

Even though it isn't your cup of tea, it is still an awful lot of people travelling for the food.

[Carrot Top]

I can see what you both mean, Anne and Robyn. One might rue the lack of "destination" restaurants there and wish for more. And one might guess that really, the "food travel" to Florida from us out-of-staters is only part of the other draws that Florida has for us. (Scraped any ice off the car windshield lately? ). But I would add that even someone like me, who does not travel to destination restaurants anymore (though there were times I did) by choice, still counts "food" as part of the package Florida offers, and the thinking of that food is part of the reason for the travel.

I'd like a grouper sandwich like I had on St. Pete's Beach a few months ago. Oh yeah. I'm ready. Can't find it here, and that will definitely be part of the draw next time I say "Where should I go, for travel (and food)?" That grouper sandwich will be calling me. From Florida.

[annecros]

I can see what you both mean, Anne and Robyn. One might rue the lack of "destination" restaurants  there and wish for more. And one might guess that really, the "food travel" to Florida from us out-of-staters is only part of the other draws that Florida has for us. (Scraped any ice off the car windshield lately?  ). But I would add that even someone like me, who does not travel to destination restaurants anymore (though there were times I did) by choice, still counts "food" as part of the package Florida offers, and the thinking of that food is part of the reason for the travel.

I'd like a grouper sandwich like I had on St. Pete's Beach a few months ago. Oh yeah. I'm ready.  Can't find it here, and that will definitely be part of the draw next time I say "Where should I go, for travel (and food)?" That grouper sandwich will be calling me. From Florida. 

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We are kind of spoiled rotten down here - now that I think about it. I used to be more excited about stone crab season than I am now. Used to catch my own spiny lobster when the mini season came in (too old and decrepit for that now) . I knew people in Georgia who used to drive to Pensacola just for the oysters. The Keys bill themselves as "The Sport Fishing Capital of the World" and if you are fishing, you certainly want to eat some - your own catch or not.

I guess its just human nature to take it for granted when you live in paradise.

[Carrot Top]

The Keys bill themselves as "The Sport Fishing Capital of the World" and if you are fishing, you certainly want to eat some - your own catch or not.

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The very first time I ever tried to put pen to paper to write something, about two years ago, was inspired by fishing in the Keys, Anne. Naturally, my experience had to shape itself differently than some glamorous deep-sea fishing adventure:

A Fish Tale

The bobbin is flopping about! It must be a big one! Drop that beer and grab

the pole! Gently, gently now, pull 'er in. Up close, it looks like it must be that

red snapper! But wait. Look closer. This is no red snapper. The shape is the

same but the color is wrong. And isn't there something odd about its eyes?

Moving your face close in the dank seawater-scented twilight, you try to

remove the hook from the edge of the hungry beast's gullet. As you twist it

sideways, a frighteningly loud noise emerges from the fish's belly.

"Graaaak! Grooooook!" The ugly vermin is making an appealing, loud

scratchy noise at you! Who ever heard of a fish that could talk! Your fingers

edge closer to the hook to try to pull it out. OUCH! Damn! Huge, beaver-like

teeth have emerged from this smarmy pipsqueak's mouth and the nasty little

thing has bitten almost through your finger.

Memories of books read long ago on piscine matters waft into your addled

brain as you watch the scarlet blood spatter from your finger onto the dock,

where you have hurriedly flung the squiggling fish. It is a Grunt.

Grits and Grunts for dinner, honey. Nothin' wrong with that. I'd travel to Florida for it. The fish might bite my finger but soon, soon, he'll get it right back.

[annecros]

Grits and Grunts for dinner, honey. Nothin' wrong with that. I'd travel to Florida for it.  The fish might bite my finger but soon, soon, he'll get it right back. 

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LOL! I was just a tiny thing when my Uncle first introduced me to Grunt. I was scared silly of the thing, but still ate that sucker, and a few of its siblings!

Thanks for bringing those memories back!

[Miami Danny]

Robyn-we obviously have different definitions for hole-in-the-walls...I would consider Capt. Jim's or Chez Rosie must-eats, even if out of the way. When I have friends in town, this is where they go (along with Michy's)-I'm not saying come to Miami to eat at Odale or Cheen Huaye, or from the guy who smokes ribs in the thrift-store parking lot on 79th, I'm saying that when you come here, and you will, make tracks. These are 'destination' spots that you won't ever forget, and not just because the food is outstanding. I have been in NYC with friends, and we routinely have traveled an hour or more to small or ethnic dining rooms for amazing food.

Also, the backers of Michy's are a well-known restaurant family, and I'll take your action!

And...David Bouley and Govind Armstrong are new additions to South Beach's restaurant scene, whatever that means.

[robyn]

Robyn-we obviously have different definitions for hole-in-the-walls...I would consider Capt. Jim's or Chez Rosie must-eats, even if out of the way. When I have friends in town, this is where they go (along with Michy's)-I'm not saying come to Miami to eat at Odale or Cheen Huaye, or from the guy who smokes ribs in the thrift-store parking lot on 79th, I'm saying that when you come here, and you will, make tracks.  These are 'destination' spots that you won't ever forget, and not just because the food is outstanding.  I have been in NYC with friends, and we routinely have traveled an hour or more to small or ethnic dining rooms for amazing food.

Also, the backers of Michy's are a well-known restaurant family, and I'll take your action!

And...David Bouley and Govind Armstrong are new additions to South Beach's restaurant scene, whatever that means.

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Our definitions are almost exactly the same. You're talking about places in *Miami* for people who happen to visit or live in *Miami*. What's your definition of "out of the way" - doesn't seem to be further than 5 or 10 miles from where you live or happen to be staying (even I'm willing to travel more than that). I realize that the traffic in Miami is bad - but it isn't *that* bad all the time. Robyn

[robyn]

Grits and Grunts for dinner, honey. Nothin' wrong with that. I'd travel to Florida for it.  The fish might bite my finger but soon, soon, he'll get it right back. 

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It's hard to find grits and grunts in Florida except at a few Cuban fish places and a lot of politician Fourth of July type gatherings and the like. No great loss. It's easy to choke on grunt bones (and I have). Shrimp and grits is tastier and easier on the throat. Robyn

[robyn]

I can see what you both mean, Anne and Robyn. One might rue the lack of "destination" restaurants  there and wish for more. And one might guess that really, the "food travel" to Florida from us out-of-staters is only part of the other draws that Florida has for us. (Scraped any ice off the car windshield lately?  ). But I would add that even someone like me, who does not travel to destination restaurants anymore (though there were times I did) by choice, still counts "food" as part of the package Florida offers, and the thinking of that food is part of the reason for the travel.

I'd like a grouper sandwich like I had on St. Pete's Beach a few months ago. Oh yeah. I'm ready.  Can't find it here, and that will definitely be part of the draw next time I say "Where should I go, for travel (and food)?" That grouper sandwich will be calling me. From Florida. 

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According to reports in most local newspapers over the last few years - most of the "grouper" in those grouper sandwiches will not be grouper. Not that most people can tell the difference. Or that they'd want to eat grouper (particularly the large ones) if they knew the risk from ciguaterra. Only grouper I will eat is one I can eyeball before I eat it (to make sure it's a grouper - and a small grouper - which is less likely to be a carrier of ciguaterra).

As for Anne's musings about panhandle oysters - there are so many beds closed due to fecal contamination - and so many half-assed suppliers who harvest from those beds anyway - that I won't eat raw Florida oysters anymore. As for the "sport" fish from the Keys that she's talking about - I don't know. I like yellowtail and pompano (which you can find in a lot of Florida a lot of the year - you can even catch them here at the Jacksonville Beach fishing pier) - but they're not considered game/sport fish. Robyn

[annecros]

According to reports in most local newspapers over the last few years - most of the "grouper" in those grouper sandwiches will not be grouper.  Not that most people can tell the difference.  Or that they'd want to eat grouper (particularly the large ones) if they knew the risk from ciguaterra.  Only grouper I will eat is one I can eyeball before I eat it (to make sure it's a grouper - and a small grouper - which is less likely to be a carrier of ciguaterra).

As for Anne's musings about panhandle oysters - there are so many beds closed due to fecal contamination - and so many half-assed suppliers who harvest from those beds anyway - that I won't eat raw Florida oysters anymore.  As for the "sport" fish from the Keys that she's talking about - I don't know.  I like yellowtail and pompano (which you can find in a lot of Florida a lot of the year - you can even catch them here at the Jacksonville Beach fishing pier) - but they're not considered game/sport fish.  Robyn

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Here's a guide to Sport Fishing in Florida in March, there is a lot more going on in the Keys than Pompano or Yellowtail (though I love both)

Clickhere for sport fishing in Florida

It's the Marlin, Amerjack, Tarpon, etc. etc. Some edible at a large size (Mahi), some not, the grouper example you gave. Any reef fish, actually, including snappers, can carry ciguatoxin. You would have to give up a whole lot more than grouper to avoid fish poisoning altogether. You would have to give up any fish that feeds on other fish and lives in the vicinity of a reef in the tropics around the world, including Hawaii and Australia. I don't know about you robyn, but I am not willing to spend the rest of my life restricting my fish intake to farm raised talapia.

Fortunately, it is rare, and I am willing to take the chance, personally.

For reference Click Here

From the site:

On the other hand, ciguatera, the disease caused by ciguatoxin, is rarely fatal, and your chances of contracting it are not large. Dr. Carl Edmonds, the Australian expert on marine dangers, estimates 50,000 cases a year worldwide, with only about 3,000 in the United States.

A Food and Drug Administration and Centers for Disease Control report in 1991 concluded that seafood was 10 times safer than chicken, causing illness once every 250,000 servings compared with chicken's one illness for every 25,000 servings. (Rates for raw or undercooked shellfish were much higher: one per 1,000 servings.)

Now oysters, I don't eat them often personally because they never really did anything for me. My husband is willing to take the risk, and is well aware that shellfish of all types are natures little waste vacuums. What type of oysters do you eat, or are you doing without?

I thought it was the great snapper switch they found on the menus. Will have to dig around.

[Carrot Top]

According to reports in most local newspapers over the last few years - most of the "grouper" in those grouper sandwiches will not be grouper.  Not that most people can tell the difference.  Or that they'd want to eat grouper (particularly the large ones) if they knew the risk from ciguaterra.  Only grouper I will eat is one I can eyeball before I eat it (to make sure it's a grouper - and a small grouper - which is less likely to be a carrier of ciguaterra).

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The "grouper" I had was most likely a blackfish, I think. So many fish get different nicknames.

I guess I feel about that fish the way some guys feel about a very attractive woman. Such a delightful and unbalancing experience that really . . . who cares about names.

[Miami Danny]

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Edited March 17, 2007 by Miami Danny (log)

[annecros]

Good lord, don't you know how big Miami is?  And that most people stay on the beach and never leave?  (Except maybe to go downtown or to Wynwood to a club.)  It's like staying in Midtown Manhattan and going to a Dim Sum restaurant in Flushing-it's still NYC, it's only a few miles, but it's definitely out-of-the-way, and a food-destination-driven trip. The neighborhoods might even be a little sketchy, or dirty, or hard to get to (or get out of). And we're talking about visitors coming from out of town, anyway,not locals.  I mean, I live here, it's all local to me.  I know the grouper from Capt. Jim's is grouper.  I didn't read about it in the paper, I EAT there! 

To illustrate my point, look at the response to 'South Beach' suggestions from Markemorse-every restaurant this couple ate at is in South Beach!  (Except El Pub, a favorite of mine, which is located on Calle Ocho, also a tourist mecca).  But they DID come for the food, and it sounds like they loved it!

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I feel your pain. We are so much more than the beach. So much more.

[Miami Danny]

Fake Grouper in Tampa

[Carrot Top]

I knew before taking a bite of that sandwich that it was unlikely to be grouper, Danny. And I still don't feel put-upon or ripped-off in any way. I've read Alan Davidson encyclopediacally ( ) on fish and realize that even the "experts" often use different names for the same fish.

If the fish had been expensive, or if the fish had not tasted good, then I would have. It tasted local, tasted very fresh, and the preparation was perfect, for what it was.

The amount of slightly or purely false advertising in the world is huge. To fight it all would be to fight shadows on a never-ending basis.

Buyer beware, yes. But buyer enjoy if buyer can.

[robyn]

According to reports in most local newspapers over the last few years - most of the "grouper" in those grouper sandwiches will not be grouper.  Not that most people can tell the difference.  Or that they'd want to eat grouper (particularly the large ones) if they knew the risk from ciguaterra.  Only grouper I will eat is one I can eyeball before I eat it (to make sure it's a grouper - and a small grouper - which is less likely to be a carrier of ciguaterra).

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The "grouper" I had was most likely a blackfish, I think. So many fish get different nicknames.

I guess I feel about that fish the way some guys feel about a very attractive woman. Such a delightful and unbalancing experience that really . . . who cares about names.

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There are lots of different types of grouper. You might have had a black grouper. Robyn

[robyn]

I knew before taking a bite of that sandwich that it was unlikely to be grouper, Danny. And I still don't feel put-upon or ripped-off in any way. I've read Alan Davidson encyclopediacally ( ) on fish and realize that even the "experts" often use different names for the same fish.

If the fish had been expensive, or if the fish had not tasted good, then I would have. It tasted local, tasted very fresh, and the preparation was perfect, for what it was.

The amount of slightly or purely false advertising in the world is huge. To fight it all would be to fight shadows on a never-ending basis.

Buyer beware, yes. But buyer enjoy if buyer can.

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The problem is paying X for something that should cost 1/2 X. Robyn

[robyn]

Good lord, don't you know how big Miami is?  And that most people stay on the beach and never leave?  (Except maybe to go downtown or to Wynwood to a club.)  It's like staying in Midtown Manhattan and going to a Dim Sum restaurant in Flushing-it's still NYC, it's only a few miles, but it's definitely out-of-the-way, and a food-destination-driven trip. The neighborhoods might even be a little sketchy, or dirty, or hard to get to (or get out of). And we're talking about visitors coming from out of town, anyway,not locals.  I mean, I live here, it's all local to me.  I know the grouper from Capt. Jim's is grouper.  I didn't read about it in the paper, I EAT there! 

To illustrate my point, look at the response to 'South Beach' suggestions from Markemorse-every restaurant this couple ate at is in South Beach!  (Except El Pub, a favorite of mine, which is located on Calle Ocho, also a tourist mecca).  But they DID come for the food, and it sounds like they loved it!

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I lived in Miami for over 20 years. I know exactly how big it is. It is smaller (geographically) than the Jacksonville metro area (which is where I live now). Although the traffic is worse (we are unfortunately catching up in that area).

As for those South Beach tourists you mention - it's the old story - if you can't say anything nice - etc. We have people like that here too (people on the beaches who won't "cross the ditch"). And I don't have anything nice to say about them either. I was talking about holes in the wall in general - for people in general - not South Beach tourists and their ilk. Robyn

[Carrot Top]

The problem is paying X for something that should cost 1/2 X.  Robyn

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When X costs less than $20 and leaves one wiith an experience such as I wrote of below, I can't see how that is really a problem.

I know how to estimate food cost, labor cost, and overhead and can't say the price of this meal was off in any way.

Generally the X and half X situations occur in higher-tab places. Certainly I've had meals that cost $400. plus tip for two where I felt the way you describe.

I did finally have lunch at Dockside Dave's. One-half pound fresh grouper sandwiches (on "weck").

I got mine batter fried. Fantastic.

A glass of wine ordered arrived in a glass the size of a usual iced tea. 

I sat and tried to eat this enormous delicious thing and watched the people. Locals, mostly. Bellied up the bar in the other room were the serious drinkers, faces red and ready to hit the beer for the afternoon. This place could have been the inspiration for Joni Mitchell's "Barangrill". Photos of fish and people all over the walls that were coated with many layered coats of paint, rock and roll blasting from the kitchen in the back, the cooks shouting about how they'd just been slammed, the busser a thirteen year old babyfaced slightly plump girl in shorts and rumpled t-shirt, the ladies at the next table discussing who had died and who had gotten divorced and who had gotten drunk, both with bleached blond hair and thick heavy overdone black eyebrows. It was innocent, the place, a place of the beach, a reminder of seashore life, a place without pretension.

The tomato on the sandwich was one of the three best I've ever had in a restaurant (the other two being at Peter Luger's and Bradley Ogden's. . .).

On the wall was an article from "Southern Living" in 2004, placing Dockside Dave's as "one of our favorite places".

I can see why.

I walked slowly out, sated from the big fat crunchy flaky moist grouper and the wine that I could not finish unless I wanted to fall off my chair.

It was good. 

Again, as far as the fish being a grouper or one of the fish that closely resembles a grouper in taste and texture, it doesn't really matter to me. I'm reminded of Ray Johnson:

His schtick is to become annoyed when addressed as "Mr. Johnson", exclaiming in a loud voice, "You can call me RAY; or you can call me JAY", and so on listing other names he could be called, until finally finishing, "but you doesn't hafta call me JOHNSON!"

[robyn]

Now oysters, I don't eat them often personally because they never really did anything for me. My husband is willing to take the risk, and is well aware that shellfish of all types are natures little waste vacuums. What type of oysters do you eat, or are you doing without?

I thought it was the great snapper switch they found on the menus. Will have to dig around.

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Don't eat raw oysters a whole lot - but - when I do - it's mostly local ones in the Pacific northwest.

Snapper switch was/is another thing common in Florida restaurants. Especially when it comes to so-called "red snapper". There are lots of restaurants that defraud consumers to try to make an extra buck or two. And - when it comes to the average diner - you could fry an old shoe in a good batter - and the diner wouldn't have a clue what he or she is eating.

The best defense against ciguaterra is avoiding some fish altogether (like barracuda - amberjack - etc. - fish most people normally wouldn't eat) - and sticking to smaller fish of the types people do eat (like snapper and grouper). The toxin is found in many many (maybe all?) reef fish - but it doesn't build up to dangerous levels until the fish get really big. I've had food poisoning in various flavors enough times that I like to keep the odds of avoiding it in the future in my favor.

I've never been a fan of tilapia (I find it tasteless) - but there are a reasonable number of farm raised fish - like trout and catfish - that are pretty good. Farm raised catfish is especially good compared to "natural" catfish (it pan fries well and doesn't have that off-taste you frequently find in "real" catfish).

Overall - I think the problem with most fresh non-farmed fish is it is expensive and has a very limited shelf-life. Which is why restaurants are tempted to and do cheat (in terms of substitutions and serving stuff that should have been thrown out yesterday). A while back - I had lunch at Maggione's here - and the fish special on the menu wasn't available - the restaurant rejected the fish shipment (from a major Florida supplier) because it was spoiled. How many non-chain small restaurants would be that honest? Robyn