cabrales

Robert S -- I agree that complexity (including, but without being limited to, of presentation) does not necessarily support a cuisine being "better". However, it is helpful to French cuisine that it has: (1) complex (in the sense of difficult, requiring considerable skill or experience, entailing a large amount of preparation or cooking phases and/or similar meanings) as well as simpler techniques; (2) complex (in the sense of textured, abundant, varied, robust) history and a complex (in the sense of diverse, abundant, fine-tuned, carefully-articulated, well-documented) base of recipes; (3) complex (diverse, abundant, different-styled) "star" (e.g., but not necessarily in the sense of reknown throughout the pool of diners interested in cuisine) cuisiniers; (4) complex (in the sense of being imbued with history -- as in Taillevent or La Pyramide or Pic; in the sense of harmony of decor, service and cuisine -- as in the case of Troisgros) restaurants; (5) complex (in the sense of multiple, mixing, developed) utilization of texture (not that that is not evident in other cuisines; e.g., Chinese cuisine); and (6) complex utilization of herbs, spices and other enhancing ingredients (obviously also not unique to French cuisine). With respect to cuisine, I consider it appropriate to consider "tasting better" (including the intellectual aspects of "tasting", and obviously including all senses, e.g., visual appeal, attractive of smell) to be a good proxy for "better". Thank-you for your kind words, but I may not or may have more experience with French cuisine than you.

Steve P -- Could you discuss of whom you are speaking, in referring to people who can view food objectively? How can, taking a cuisinier whose food you like, one objectively evaluate a Pierre Gagnaire dinner, for example? Toby -- Discussion regarding the dominance of one cuisine over another, for me, is not being conducted with a view towards denigrating cuisines that are not dominant. It is with a view towards articulating what I perceive to be a rather generally accepted matter among many (but not all, of course) diners "interested in cuisine". And Nina is observant in highlighting my use of that qualifier on the pool of diners I am considering. It is fortunate that we in a position to be able to analyze food as other than a need-meeting commodity, and the events of and following 9/11 have not, presumably, been forgotten by many of us. However, to assert that French cuisine is best is not an indicium of intolerance.

Nina -- I agree with you that a particular diner's preferences are intimate and subjective. That a given diner may not prefer French cuisine, or conversely adores French cuisine, does not address the broader question of whether French cuisine is the "best". While my subjective preference is for French cuisine by an immense margin, it is the prevalence of that subjective preference among many other diners interested in cuisine that is one of the factors supporting the superiority of French cuisine.

I'd appreciate members' input on what cuisine, if it is not French cuisine, would be viewed as the best and the reasons for that assessment. I think it might be difficult to come up with a reasoned alternative, which would tend to suggest that French cuisine is the best. While an argument could be made by others for Italian, Japanese or Chinese cuisine, what other cuisines could approach the point of being considered? And how would members classify certain "high"-end restaurants that exist in Spain today?

vivin -- The Asian connotations may have been derived, in part, from the use of the Asian fish sauce nuoc nam (spelling). I wonder if the Apicius recipe from which Senderens derived inspiration (in a good sense, and not the copying sense in the context of other threads) for this dish contained garum. Have members tasted garum, and where can it be purchased (if anywhere) in an authentic form?

I have Ma Gastronomie, and would recommend it. My English version is a translation by Frank Kulla and Patricia Shannon Kulla, with an introduction by Joseph Wechsberg. The publisher is Lyceum Books, copyrighted 1974 with respect to the translated version. Here's the table of contents: (1) Introduction, (2) The Restaurant de la Pyramide, (3) F Point, Restaraunteur, (4) A Day at Chez Point (I like this chapter), (5) La Pyramide Today (i.e., then), (6) The Cellars at La Pyramide, (7) Great Menus From La Pyramide (this is my favorite section; a sample to come later), (8) Fernand Point's Notebook (little captions and observations from the chef's notes), (9) The Golden Book of La Pyramide (observations from certain diners), and (10) Fernand Point's Recipes (extends from p. 81 through p. 180; note Point recipes are concise, so there are typically 2+ per page) -- including, subjective highlights in the chicken section: Stuffed Roast Chicken Aga Khan, Roast Chicken Mado -- This is named after Point's wife, roast Chicken Home-Style, Roast Bressan Chicken Mere Brazier, Roast Chicken Mere Leon, Roast Chicken Sasha Guitry, Roast Chicken In a Bladder Marius Vettard, Spring Chicken in Asparagus Butter, Spring Chicken in Hell's Fire, Spring Chicken Celestine, Spring Chicken Pere Francois, Spring Chicken Fricassee Louhannaise, Broiled Deviled Spring Chicken, Spring Chicken Jean Cocteau, Chicken in Jelly and Tarragon, Chicken Pyramide, Chicken Souvaroff, Chicken Liver Sausage and Light Liver Cake Curnonsky. Here's a menu from the chapter on special menus: F Point's Fiftieth Birthday Dinner, February 25, 1947: Parfaits de Foie Gras Fernand (Foie gras parfait) Pates Chauds de Becasse (Hot Pates of woodcock) Les Mousses de Truites du Rhone au Coulis d'Ecrevisses (Mousse of Rhone trout with a crayfish coulis) Cardons aux Truffes (Truffled vegetable, artichoke-like) Piece de Boeuf a la Royale (Beef a la Royale) Les Chauds-Froids de Chapons de Bresse Truffes (Truffled Bresse capons) Les Fromages de Saint-Marcellin Sorbets au Citron Marjolaine Corbeilles de Fruits (Lemon sorbet, etc.)

Jaymes -- Thank-you for continuing to share experiences that are so special for you. The dominant reason I would like to cook is to be able to replicate a number of memorable dishes I have taken in to date. I am reading up very slowly (in view of work considerations, etc.) on the basics, and it would be nice to be able to cook a wide range of things. However, my intent in attempting to learn to cook (with attempting being the key word) is so I can have dishes I adore when I am away from restaurants that feature them. When you prepare the Prawns au Sherry dish, do you generally perform the flambeeing tableside? What type of prawns and sherry do you utilize, if that is not part of the recipe furnished to you by Rolf?

Bux -- On bouillabasse, I'd appreciate hearing members' thoughts on where a good bouillabasse can be had in NYC. Have members sampled the bouillabaisse at db bistro moderne, for example (not available today, presumably)?

Steve, I'd like to believe that you are saying these things stylistically, as a means of provoking argument, not that you actually believe them to be true, which they aren't. A number of us have replied on this subject. Repeating a declarative statement that is so unsupportable as to be simply silly doesn't help us to learn or to understand each other better. Neither does the proposition of an absolute, international standard. Everyone has already conceded that French food - sorry, cuisine - dominates the international fine dining establishment. To insist that it is universally better only detracts from the other accomplishments of your argument. Robert -- I agree with Steve P that French cuisine is better (because it tastes better) than any other cuisine and that is why it dominates when it does. Note the above is my subjective assessment. However, as Steve noted, among the knowledgeable dining public, there are many who harbor such subjective assessment. I don't think Steve P provided the quoted statement for stylistic reasons. Without purporting to speak for him and based on review of his prior posts, I think he means what he stated. It's not only a question of technique with respect to French cuisine, it is also, among other things: the depth of the culinary talent nurturing French cuisine or cuisines grounded in French cuisine, in the past and today; the groundings of a people who appreciate the cuisine; the wealth of recipes grounding the cuisine and from which present French cuisiniers can draw and find their own dishes; the bounty of saucing in many French dishes; visual, emotive and intellectual appeal in some dishes; the enchanting utilization of products from France ....

On simplicity, from F Point's Ma Gastronomie (thoughts from Point's small cream-colored notebook): "The most difficult dishes to make generally appear to be the simplest." "That which is very simple is not necessarily the least delectable. Take, for instance, sauerkraut. Yet, you still have to know how to prepare it." And, later, in the introduction to F Point's recipes, the English version of Ma Gastronomie indicates: "'Fernand Point was an artist.' The appraisal is from Francois Bise, another of Point's three-star disciples . . . . Much of Point's artistry had to do with simplicity. As Paul Bocuse says, 'He purified his cuisine. He worked to bring out and enhance the natural taste of a volaille de Bresse, not disguise it.' But obviously, this was a simplicity based on a vast knowledge of la grande cuisine -- all that had gone before -- combined with an unerring sense of what might be done to improve up on it."

anil -- In a blind test of the "best" (recognizing this is subjective) three star to the "best" two star (leaving aside J-M Lorain, O Roellinger -- not yet sampled, and E Loubet), I think one would be able to distinguish. There is significant range within each category, sadly. Plus, how could one conduct a "blind test" if one knew, as general knowledge, which restaurants were three stars?

Here is an excerpt from F Point's Ma Gastronomie (translated and adapted by Frank Kulla and Patricia Shannon Kulla; Lyceum Books 1974), which describes the recipe summarized by Steve Klc: Veritable Gratin Dauphinois (True Gratin Dauphinois) Lightly rub a heavy flameproof casserole made of porcelainized cast iron or eartenware with garlic and *sprinkle on some salt*. Coat it with butter. Slice two pounds of *yellow-fleshed* potatoes very thin, after they have been peeled and *wiped clean but not washed*. *Salt and pepper them lightly.* Arrange the potato slices in the casserole in one thin layer. Prepare a mixture of *one* beaten egg, eight counces of boiled *(scalded)* milk and one tablespoon of heavy cream. No cheese should ever be used. Pour this mixture over the potatoes and *dot* them with butter. *Start the cooking on top of the stove* and finish the cooking in a slow oven for thirty to forty minutes. Serve piping hot right in the cooking dish, after *dotting* the top with more butter." Note the differences from the F Point version reported by Bocuse, as highlighted. Note, for example, the absence of nutmeg in the Ma Gastronomie recipe.

The Lin/Lin discussion extends to the role of complementary flavors in Chinese cuisine, following some discussion on "plain" flavors that contribute to "natural" taste: "[T]he second type of blending depends on showing up the flavours of individual ingredients by contrasting them with similar or totally different ingredients. The delicate taste of bird's nest [this is literally formed from saliva of applicable birds] is matched with very finely chopped winter melon (blending of similar flavors) or with mined ham (matching of contrasting flavors). This is comparable to matching several shades of white to each other, or contrasting black with white. The combination of cheese with other ingredients in French cooking comes closest to this idea of mutual support. . . ." In addition, just as texture is an important part of certain forms of French haute cuisine, Chinese cuisine accords significance to it, as described in Lin/Lin: "The refinement of the [Chinese] cuisine is most obvious in its control of texture. . . . At the most sophisticated tables it became an end in itself. It led to the search for texture-foods, things that have interesting textures but no taste [or no strong taste, in my assessment]. Today, there is no banquet without bird's nest or shark's fins, both texture-foods. . . . In Chinese cooking at its most sophisticated, substances with texture but no flavor were wedded to stocks of great flavor but no substance. . . ." Other texture-based ingredients utilized in Chinese cuisine nowadays (and less expensive than sharks' fin and birds' nest) include, just as a beginning, bamboo skin, vermicelli (not the Italian pasta, but one that becomes very supple and slinky when stewed), cloud ear mushrooms (aka wood ear, etc.) and tofu. http://www.globalgourmet.com/food/special/...ian/fungus.html (on cloud ear mushrooms) The Chinese have used diverse animal/fish parts, just as French cuisine often makes use of such parts: "People distinguished between the cheeks of the fish, its soft underbelly, the jelly-like tissue at the base of the dorsal fins. *Country-style cooking was by necessity a cooking of parts,* quite aside from the art of eating. . . .So the grainy quality of liver, the unctuous intestine, the fibrous gizzard, the spongy maw and crunchy tripe all stand apart from each other . . . ." Finally for now, cusine occupies a role in Chinese society that could be viewed as having certain analogies to the centrality of cuisine in French society. This point is debatable, however. I would agree with Toby's points regarding the existence of "high" and "low" cuisines and the enjoyment of "low" cooking.

Jaymes -- On your Gaddi's meal, could you consider discussing how much of your favorable rating of it was attributable to the cuisine offered?

Like Steve, I would have to say that Ducasse did not seem like the natural to succeed Robuchon as the best chef in France (assuming for this purpose that Robuchon was, which was likely the case for a certain period at least). It becomes more evident when one considers Ducasse's cuisine. But leaving that aside, L'Astrance is a compelling restaurant in my subjective assessment.

mike -- If you did not have the Red Guide in hard copy, but knew that, for example Pyramide is at Vienne, you could use the Web version, in English, of the Michelin search engine and determine the number of stars. http://www.viamichelin.com/viamichelin/gbr...N5J3KDZLIBMYWVA Note that another significant use of the Red Guide, apart from general star indications, is the listing of a few more known dishes of the restaurant. For example, for Pyramides, here are the indicated specialties: "'Moelleux de dormeurs' [this is a type of crab] with raw artichoke. Veal cutlet with vegetables from the valley. Chocolate praline piano in "ut"." http://www.viamichelin.com/viamichelin/gbr...1&id=F38101I012 Note that the hard copy Red Guide has certain advantages the on-line search engine does not. Near the front of the guide (and similarly near the front of the G-M), there are maps of certain regions within France showing how many stars the most highly-rated restaurant in certain towns/villages have. This facilitates trip planning, particularly when combined with the SNCF website, the Michelin driving directions feature (which furnishes estimated driving times) and the Relais & Chateaux maps (which show Relais Gourmand facilities with a red marking).

Bux -- No doubt there are restaurants that do not *merit* stars that are worthy of a trip. However, except for budding restaurants where the chef has pedigree from another restaurant with which I am familiar, for me the effort of identifying such restaurants is not worth current attention. If I happen to come across an inappropriately unstarred restaurant that appeals, that's great. However, that rarely happens unless the restaurant is first starting off and it has not yet proven itself to confirm it merits the star. If it's a restaurant that over some period does not merit a star, it would have to be a fairly special restaurant (e.g., a boutique concentrating on a product) to draw me. Say, for restaurants in Spain or France that specialize in the little piballes (spelling?) eels, or in black truffles when in season, or non-starred facilities in Marseilles offering wonderful bouillabaisse (that is one of the areas I am interested in exploring, restaurants in Menton that offer lemon dishes, restaurants in Cavaillon that speak articulately with melons, I could see being drawn back. Of course, I have never sampled piballes. Any leads would be appreciated.

lizziee -- I agree, and can, based on current memory and without having checked my menus, double-confirm the following from your list have tasting menus within the meaning (with respect to the size of dishes not being full-size) you describe: Bras, Jardin des Sens, Ducasse (this manifests itself currently in the form of 3 plates of 1/2-sized portions from a certain part of the menu), Lucas Carton (a no-choice tasting menu during dinner, at least during 2001), Guy Savoy, Pierre Gagnaire, Arpege, Jamin, Rostang, Troisgros, Veyrat, La Cote d'Or (at least during one lunch I was there; other meals were dinner and I am less sure), and L'Esperance. I would add P Henrioux's La Pyramide, J-G Klein's L'Arnsbourg (a super value at around 100-150 euros for a very expansive tasting menu), and E Loubet at Lourmarin. Boyer has a tasting menu, at least during lunch on one visit in 2001.

marcus -- Yes, I do indeed subjectively dislike many chefs' cuisines I dislike the cuisine of Gagnaire and Veyrat, among others, and dislike to some extent the cuisine of Ducasse (although my view on his cuisine has become slightly more favorable of late). However, note that I am not "downgrading", in the sense of denigrating, the cuisine of the chefs I happen to dislike. Each chef has his audience of diners who might be particularly receptive to appreciating his cuisine. That other diners might not feel similarly is not necessarily a poor reflection on the chef. Nor on such other diners. I may return to eat at certain restaurants of cuisiniers I dislike. I monitor restaurants over time, thinking they might improve. What I have generally found, however, is that if I do not like a chef's cuisine at a given point in time, I am very unlikely to like it over time. I would not say that I dislike Bras' cuisine. I noted a meal there was "gentle and appropriate, but not evocative". In other words, the meal was not compelling to me, but I liked it at some level. I thought there was moderation, and dishes were generally appopriately prepared. It was the case that I felt disappointed, relative to my heightened expectations. http://forums.egullet.org/ibf/index.php?ac...6e80ae51c932baf

Steve Klc -- I furnished a PM addressing certain of your inquiries.

An excerpt from Lin and Lin's writings is set forth in The Penguin Book of Food and Drink (ed. Paul Levy 1996). The below quote hints at the intricacies of Chinese cuisine and certain departures, beginning to fundamental descriptions of flavor and desirable qualities, from, say, French renditions: "Chinese cuisine . . . actually differs from Western cuisine in a number of fundamental aspects. Its peculiar character comes from the realization that cooking is a form of artifice. . . . The pursuit of flavor has resulted more often from the blending of flavors . . . . Chinese cuisine is uniquely distinguished by textural variation, which has also led to the use of [animal/fish] parts. And it is one of the few cuisines in which some kinds of fat are treated as delicacies. . . . Cooking is a form of artifice, because the taste of food is both good and bad. Good taste cannot be achieved unless one knows precisely what is bad about each ingredient, and proceeds to correct it. . . . Raw fish is insipid, raw chicken metallic, raw beef is palatable but for the rank flavour of blood. . . ." Lins then proceed to set forth the criteria of excellence in Chinese cuisine. "Hsien. Sweet natural flavour. Usage: to describe the delicate taste of fat pork, or the taste of butter; the taste of fresh fish, bamboo and prawns (shrimps). . . . Hsiang. Characteristic fragrance' aroma. Usage: applied to those dishes which can give pleasure by their smell as well as their taste; characteristic fragrance of chicken fat, of roasted meats, of mushrooms, of sauteed onions, etc. . . . . Nung. Rich, heady, concentrated. Usage: in contrast to Hsien, which must always appear fresh and effortless, dishes which are nung are strongly flavoured with meat essences or spices. Applied to highly romatic food (Glazed Duck) . . . . . Yu-er-pu-ni. To taste of fat without being oily. Usage: applicable to the *yolks of preserved eggs*, to roe, to properly cooked belly pork. . . ."

The Roden book is described by Robert Irwin's "In the Caliph's Kitchen" (1994), which is included in The Penguin Book of Food and Drink (ed. Paul Levy, 1996). Excerpts from Irwin's observations (obviously, not reviewed by me in any manner): ". . . 'Culinary Cultures of the Middle East', generally an extremely valuable collection of seventeen papers, presented mostly by academics who pariticipated in a conference on Middle Eastern food at the School of Oriental and African Studies, London University, in 1992. . . . In their introduction, Sami Zubaida and Richard Tapper . . . . take Roden's 'A Book of Middle Eastern Food' gently to task for its overemphasis on culinary continuity in the region, commenting that 'our perceptions of the past as origins predispose us to an emphasis on similarity and continuity.' . . ." The 1992 London University papers are described as covering "such matters as food production, the changing fortunes of rice, Jewish food, the breaking of the Ramadan fast, colours and smells in medieval Arab cooking, the role of food in the Naguib Mahfouz and other novelists, and food as a regional marker of gender, race or class." It does not appear, however, that the papers would contain many Egyptian recipes.

marcus -- On whether Bras has declined relative to his old location, I would not be able to speak to that. I did sample three meals there recently, including my first meal, and did not find the restaurant compelling. One of the meals, and Bux's recent meal there, are described in a thread initiated by Bux. On Veyrat, I do not like his cuisine. I also do not agree that Veyrat is the consensus best chef in France among food writers. Which food writers are being included or not? Are you referring to international or French food writers? As you know, Veyrat alternates between the two restaurant locations; thus, if you view six Michelin stars as supporting the above position, I would argue that Veyrat doesn't really have two three-star restaurants and that standard should not control in any event. I have eaten four meals at Veyrat (2 each at Ferme and Auberge) (Note I am mentioning this in the context of my having eaten only one meal at Auberge de L'Ill and that having been relevant in this thread). The craziness (to be clear, in a negative way) of one of the meals is somewhere in the A Balic thread (consider searching for references to syringes if you are interested).

I had dinner at the 6-seat sushi bar at Citarella recently. The sushi was poor. Apparently, only certain shrimp and salmon are sourced through Citarella; other fish remains ordered through applicable market(s) in Japan. A good many of the pieces served to me had been pre-cut (i.e., cut prior to my having ordered them), which is not necessarily desirable as a general matter. The Bill Yosses desserts were fairly good, although Yosses remains no Herme. I ordered the Toasted Lemon Pound Cake with Plum Compote and Lemon Ice Cream. A fairly good pound cake and lemon ice cream that ended up being served to me with a cherry/rasperry compote/saucing. However, this dessert was nothing outstanding. I liked the superficial simplicity of this dessert, which to me made it seem less deliberately forward-pushing in the way that certain Herme creations might be. The maitre d' gifted me Warm Vanilla Cake with 12-Vanilla Bean Ice Cream. Beautiful molten center to the vanilla cake, and fair ice cream. The vanilla cake might be worth another sampling at a subsequent point in time for me. The clientele of the restaurant as a whole (including the portion where one would sample Bistrong's cuisine) was younger and less cuisine-driven, at least to me, than that I would have expected. Relatively loud music was being played.

I bought the book during the past 1-2 years, used, on the Web. For example, Chapitre has some selections, as does BN.