Wendy DeBord

Other people have explained this better then I can...............but the bottom line is: recipes do not turn out exactly the same from one person to the next. One example that comes to mind is something I read in the book The Bakers Dozen. (Simplifing things) It was a group of serious ametuers and professionals in CA that met regularly to share baking info.. One of the items they tested was angel food cake..........and they got enourmous differences from each baker even though they all were using the same recipe. I got a little discouraged when I ran into that problem when we tried to do the "Best Of" series here. The same recipe turned out different in each persons hands here too. The best we could do was attempt to vote and count how many people chose which recipe was their favorite. I never really could declare a obvious winner in any of our testing. The majority was usually by a pretty close margin, barely able to be labeled a majority. I've made most of the cakes you did and I can honestly say I got different results.

It's always hard to pin point exactly what went wrong, because there are so many variables in baking. The obvious variables have already been mentioned so I'm just going to convey a little of my experiences. This might sound a little goofey but I have to admit it's taken me many observations/attempts/sucesses/failures on how I mix my butter cakes to get the texture right. When I read a recipe that tells me to slowly or lightly mix together my flour into my creamed butter............sometimes, I'm too gentle (always fearing building up gluten). What happens is I don't actually build enough gluten in my batter........and that really does effect how my cake bakes and what the final texture is. You can see it in the finished cake, the structure is different and it seems to take forever for the cake to test done. I actually have to sort of force myself to let the mixer go longer before I naturally want to stop it. Making sure my flour isn't just folded into my batter (looking sort of just a stroke past curdled) but waiting until it's a smooth batter (firmer) batter. I actually get a better butter cake if I just relax and let my flour incorporate in the mixer much like any other baked good. I love Ina Garten's coconut cupcake recipe. I use it as my default coconut cake recipe. It's the only recipe of hers I'm aware of using. BUT the reason I mention it is because that butter cake recipe gives me results not too far away from what you said happened to you Techno Foodie. Her coconut cake recipe does sink in the center for me. It takes forever in the oven to finish baking. The outter 2" or so sets up well before the center of the cake does (it bakes less evenly them most cakes). I've never really thought too hard about it, but I sort of think it's slightly out of balance. But the fact that it tastes great........I've never bothered with fixing it. (Granted, it's a recipe for a cupcake and I'm baking it as a full sized cake. You usually can change pans with-out adjusting the leaveners...........but in this case I need to or her recipe is a hair off.) So, I'm wondering if it isn't a combo of two factors. Following her recipe too closely and not getting enough structure in your gluten development..........and her butter cake recipes may be a little "off" or very deliberately wet scarificing some texture for flavor. I'm curious if anyone else has similar results with butter cake recipes from Ina Garten?

Is there any chance someone would do a demo on this? I think we'd all be thrilled to see someone working with it. Please, please, please, etc..........

Techno Junkie, we/I seriously believe that there are no dumb questions, so please never hesitate to ask questions (besides we love helping people out). You can't be expected to know everything on every topic..........(for example) I might know some about cakes...........but I don't know much about ice creams.......... I'm running late to work at this moment, but I promise I'll come back and try to assist you. Hopefully in the mean time others will jump in and help you too.

I appolgize (in advance) for not reading every post on this thread before replying. I honestly couldn't agree more with Steves comments! I've ALWAYS wished I had a general college education. No matter what I do in life that's the one thing that could have helped me to go further, the one huge regret I have. I could have been a better business person, a better artist, a better communicator, a better whatever I want.........I could just go back to school and pick up a few classes and change fields. But with-out the core classes it's far more involved changing fields for me. It's also harder to rise in any field with-out that degree. I highly regret not getting a well rounded college education! Yes, adults can go back to college later in life........but it's not so easy when you have bills to pay and people your responsible for.

Perhaps this thread will be helpful for you, look here. We also have it linked in Pastry & Baking on this thread.

Thank you so much BKeith! If you don't mind, could you provide a link to your source for purchasing those cakes plates? Do you have any "tricks" for getting your legs evenly cut? I've always struggled with that......even though I measure correctly....... the width of the saw add's confusion........ and sometimes I my cut seems to be angled. Do you like the double sided tape for holding your tiers together better then a center dowel when your transporting cakes?

I was looking at Pastryscoop.com last night and it got me thinking we should have a thread listing our favorite sources for conversion charts. "Conversion Charts" in the broadest sense. This could be substitions charts, leavening, weight conversions, temp's, etc... Obviously keeping in mind that your posting in the Pastry & Baking Forum so all sources need to be related topics. So please share a link to your favorite sources. A brief description labeling what your link is a chart/conversion of, for example: Flour, from www.pastryscoop.com: conversions, subsitutions, protein content. would be very helpful. My goal is to have a very comprehesive list. This should be helpful to all. In time, I'll go back and edit this thread to group together links into catagories, to further simplify and organize our sources. I hope you all will participate and find this helpful! Thanks.

Everytime this topic comes up, I seem to be alone in my decent. I don't see much difference between items. An item doesn't have to be complex to taste auesome. I don't understand why a "in" ingredient is any better then an ingredient grandma used 70 plus years ago. Nor do I see one ingredient as more complex, sophisticated or interesting then any other.............really isn't it up to the specific palate of the taster? Vanilla tastes as good as passion fruit, as does lemon, as does pear, etc.... I might take pride in mastering a technique or mastering the handling of a difficult to handle ingredient............so in that regard I can see how one would rather be recognized for making a souffle verses a rice crispies treat or tempering chocolate verses melting sugar for a lolipop. But mastering the rice crispy treat requires just as much thought as anything we make. Who said the ultimate rice crispy treat contains store bought marshmellows and kelloggs brand rice crispies, butter and nothing else? I firmly believe in mastering the ingredients my client likes. In no way would I find myself less of a chef because I make apple pies everyday then a chef that makes pear frangipane tarts everyday. I hope to influence you all to not be prejudiced. Look to our heros I thought Herme' made a statement when he used caramelized rice crispies in a dessert (and theres more examples out there). Uncommon isn't better then common.....Now look at P, A & D's recipes from this years top 10 American chefs...........what do you see...............caramelized rice crispies all over the place. HA!

I can ditto that experience. I think it comes with "private clubs", they do think of them as home. But that's great..........you can use it totally to your advantage because you can make anything for them.........as long as it tastes great. I spent the time I had at a very upscale club as my own private culinary school. I tested alot of recipes to find my core recipes.........and with that core I feel confident now to be thrown into any kitchen.

I'm confused. I thought you didn't want any caramelization? Didn't the Herme's recipe reach caramelization for you?

Welcome to the eGullet Society For Arts & Letters Mpshort! I'm also familar with your website............because you do very nice work! I work in private clubs too. Although right now I'm at a very poor club, I do understand what your up against creativity wise. I find that it isn't always that I've run out of ideas.........it's just that it becomes so demanding being always 'on the hunt for new' that it eats up all your off work time. It burns me out because it leaves me no room to get away, to become fresh. When I'm brain dead and need a rest.........I turn to books (good books). Usually I'll pick 2 or 3 books and work from them all at once. Taking something from each book and making the recipes literally (although I always vary the presentation aspect....usually because of my realities at work force that). For me it becomes an exercise in learning.........because typically I'll stumble across a new method while following a recipe literally. With a really good book, it can influence my whole way of thinking about desserts or methods. With an average book........at least it's a vacation mentally. This very reason was what drove me to seek out websites where other professionals gathered and talked. I had gone back into the kitchen after like a 10 year hiatus................only to discover that the whole darn baking industry had changed! I left with Wilton, Betty Crocker and Pillsbury and came back to Collette Peters...Norman Love, Pierre Herme....etc.... completely new techniques as well as visual demands. I think I've grown the most and learned the most being on the net, learning from others in these kind of interactive forums. That's what keeps me here daily. I've picked up some incredible recipes from others here, gotten leads for everything, sources, books, what's in what's out, etc.... No amount of work on my own has been able to match what I get here. Something I've also done to push myself is tackle new catagories or specialities.......adding items restaurants wouldn't normally consider a "dessert" on it's own. Like I'll do a toffee plate and make toffee 3 different ways..........as a dessert on it's own. Last week I did a fudge plate and made 4 different fudges on a sampler plate, or a truffle plate, tea cookies or a ice cream sandwich trio. Instead of making a composed dessert as we traditional think of them..........it's more of a study of one item. You can do desserts more casually then in a restaurant because people think of the club as their 'home'. Also I used stop at a local gourmet grocery store on my way to work to check out their produce section. It worked better for me then walking into the cooler, it was more inspirational seeing it layed out in a display. It also forced me into thinking fast cause my job was only a couple minutes past that store and I'd have to figure out what I was making with it in that time frame.

Are all of you on the East coast? I'm in the mid-west and the cherries we've been getting are big, but not particularly tastie. Mette, I wonder if cherrie trees produce fruit similarly to apple trees. I have apple trees in my yard and what happens if you leave them on their own is: one year they'll over produce then the next year they don't have any to speak of. Theres a term for that, which I forget. I think the bumper crop steals the nutrients/energy that the next years crop needs so the following year the tree is busy rebounding and can't fruit. Also how wet, dry, cold or hot the spring is when the bees are pollinating the flowers/ fruit effects the years yeild, totally.

I don't have the egg white version near me, will post when I locate it. I was reading the newest issue of P A & D last night........with the top 10 American PC........and noticed a couple people used caramelized rice crispies in their desserts. (with-out running down stairs and grabing my magazine) I forget who it was, they were the second pc to use them in the issue front to back............anyway they added some salt to the caramelized rice crispies and I thought that was something I MUST TRY. When I made Herme' caramelized version I thought it was way too sweet. So next time I'm going to grab that recipe and give it a try.

I've stopped using cinnamon or any spice in my oatmeal cookies.

You can get that several ways, as you already mentioned. You could use cream in your chocolate (milk or semi-sweet) making a ganache then add the praline paste to taste. Or just use the praline paste and straight chocolate (again, either milk or semi-sweet, or bitter if you wanted). You could add a liquer too, if you like....to either ways I've mentioned. Just adjust the amount of liquid to get the texture you want, in your finished product. In the case of just using chocolate and paste, use a higher percentage of paste to soften the chocolate.

PH's recipe caramelizes the sugar.........so I don't think it will help. Can you do them like sugared nuts? First example that quickly comes to my mind is a recipe for sugared almonds by Martha Stewart. Basicly you make a slurry with sugar and h2o, toss your product in it, and bake. You pull it out of the oven before sugar cooks to dark caramel. From: The Best Of Martha Stewart Living Desserts. Our Favorite Recipes for Every Season and Every Reason. Page 128 recipe # 68 Almond-Crunch Cake. Almond Crunch: 1 c. sliced almonds (just switch in any other item, like your rise krispies) 6 tbsp. sugar 2 tbsp. h2o Bake at 325F on a silpat. This type of recipe is the only thing I can think of that would give you the sugar crunch with-out the texture amd taste of a caramel. Theres other similar ones I've used to bake seasoned nuts. I think I used one that's got egg whites, sugar and cinnamon and it results in the same crunchy texture.

I looked over at the linked site www.pastrychampionship.com and couldn't find any photos from this years competition. Can someone please show me a link or explain how to navigate their site to find current photos and info.? thanks

I agree, getting perfect square cakes is a challenge. Two things that really help me are: Using a wide spatula, I use a drywall trowel that's as wide as my cake is tall. Icing it once (I'm not talking about a pre-coat), refridgerating it, then going back over my cake with more frosting to really hit the edges and corners that tended to sag or be off the first time I frosted my cake. So the first layer of frosting has set up firm/hard (something a unfrosted cake doesn't do) then my second coat perfects my corners. Oh also and the second coat..... I don't pipe that frosting on. I apply it only where needed with my trowel. P.S. Welcome to the eGullet Society For Arts & Letters Lovkel! I'm happy to see you've decided to post........I hope any other lurkers will follow your example and post away........we're a friendly group and enjoy seeing new members participating.

.........lots to say. First thing, have you noticed that like no two brands of puff pastry are the same thickness? Some brands are thinner then others. Some are horribly thick and must always be rolled thinner. So it could be the brand that your using. But you should be rolling any brand of pp dough thinner if your making a strudel so you don't have too much dough to filling ratio. For sweet items I'll roll my dough out in sugar and that caramelizes on the exterior when baked (sometimes I spice my sugar). For savory applications you could use nut flours, like hazelnut flour to roll your dough on.........for extra flavor. I usually use phyllo dough for a "strudel" type item myself. It's easier to control and just as quick for me as pp. If I'm using pp I always restrain it's rise by placing a weighted sheet pan over the top. But with a cylinder shaped object that would be tricky. You could, on first thought control it into a square shape by weighting the top and putting objects on both sides of the cylinder to prevent it from spreading. You'd get a pretty square shaped studel........ But honestly, I don't know of any other way to control your rise so it doesn't burst. My phyllo also bursts from the steam of the baking filling. The only way around it is to use way less filling in a very thin dough. If you might be interested in trying phyllo, have you tried using a spray bottle to apply your butter? That goes really fast. You could make phyllo or pp purses by laying the dough into a mini muffin pan and filling, then baking........with-out tyeing off or cinching the top. I'm wondering why you have less crumb with pp verse phyllo.............I'd guess it would be pretty much the same. PP crumbles when you cut it, too. Can you put it in paper cups to keep your tray clean? Could you make these into a layered/napoleon shape? Baking full shees, chill to set, then slice. Could you do a shortcut vol u vent shape with the pp? Cut out bite sized rounds, indent the center with a smaller round, place a weighted sheet pan on top of the pan (to control the rise) while baking. Remove the center circle to hollow out your shell and fill. Pipe your filling onto toasts, buy in shaped vol u vents (their cheap). How about mini turnover shaped pastries?

I bought a bag of the Elsay brand custard powder a couple years ago. I kept seeing recipes that used it in my European books and I had to buy some so I could try those recipes. I didn't do much with it. It seemed at the time the way the recipes were using it was like adding cornstarch to a custard for extra stability/density. But I still have a big bag of it........so any further thoughts on the topic would be great......I need to use up my supply. How did it change the cakes texture?.......was it dense like a cake donut?

I've seen the butter seperate previously. I attributed it to the sugar crystals not melting throughly in the first place..........or crystals clinging to the side of your pan not getting washed down properly. Those crystals will mulitple madly and when doing so, they seperate so it looks sort of curdled from any other ingredients in the pot with the sugar. To the best of my knowledge once that's happened you can't bring the sugar crystals back into a smooth melted state. I throw the contents out and start a new batch............making darn sure I get my sugar properly melted before adding any other ingredients, to avoid cost.

Your favorite tool should be your mind/brain/eyes for this item. It doesn't matter what machine or if you don't use any machine to make pie crusts. To make a decent pie crust you need to know when to stop mixing the ingredients together, over-working the dough, or adding too much liquid or not enough liquid. Once you understand what makes a flakey or a mealy crust that should be your guide as to how much mixing of your ingredients you do. I make huge batches of pie dough and making that by hand would be too time consuming, so I use a 40 gallon mixer for that sized batch. If I need a pie crust at my home for personal use, I might just use my hands only. If I have my cusinart out on the counter I might use it instead, or my kitchenaid. Just like most items in baking the most important thing of all is understanding the item your making. That's the core of baking I try to empathize here at eG. Understanding proper mixing technique, what to look for, what to avoid, what happens when you do this or that to the item............that's what you need to know/learn. Your tools shouldn't ever really matter that much. Once you've learned about the item you then can manipulate it, choose what you bake it in and use any tools to achieve great results.

Hey you guys this feels like alot of teasing to me. Can you, will you at some point give more details? ......who won? .........what did Franz have to say while you were tasting chocolates? ..........what exactly did you learn in class? ......did you see anything new in the competition?

Then it would benefit restaurants to introduce meringues to their customers - they are far more profitable than cheesecakes. ← I agree meringues are inexpensive, therefore profitable. But I meant profitable in the volume of sales. Nothings profitable if it doesn't sell. Again, I love meringues of all types and I agree that it is under used. I fully support anyones and everyone interest in educating and offering meringues on dessert menus. I just wanted to explain a little from the pastry chefs point of view. I dearly wish I had the circumstances/job that allowed me to do any dessert based on quality only.