Pan

Are any of the "2 for $20.06" restaurants good values?

That's not how I'd describe the smell of durian in the first place, but a good fresh durian still smells bad. It's a unique fruit and I do think that a really good, fresh one is worthwhile. I don't miss it the way I miss really good Malaysian bananas, though (just to give one example).

Chad, I wonder if you could go into some more detail about your strategy for writing this book. I'll leave that as an open-ended question for any kind of reply you'd like to give us, but what I'm thinking about, for example, is how are you thinking in terms of overall structure and how are you going about writing each chapter?

By the "sadly," do you mean that The Modern doesn't deserve the award and Gilt does? If so, why?

I agree with Ben that it's a good idea to talk to the concierge, but do all the other things he suggests, too. There's one drawback to relying on a concierge: If you're a Westerner, he's likely to tell you what he thinks Westerners will like (not to mention what places might be giving him a commission), rather than what someone who really wants the real stuff will like. When we asked the concierge desk at the Peace Hotel in Shanghai to write out directions for a cab driver to get us to a dumpling house far away on the other side of the river, the man at the desk at the time was astonished, because he told us that that was a place he liked to eat at in its former, closer location, but he never would have expected a tourist to know of it and never would have recommended it to a tourist (not fancy enough). The dumpling house ended up being very good but conceivably not worth the long cab ride more than once. Unfortunately, I've forgotten its name, anyway, and which budget guidebook we got it from. By the way, I have been to the Li Family Restaurant in Beijing and had the best meal of my life there. You can do a search and find my report, with photos. It was more than six months ago, though, and I am not a resident of Beijing, so keep those things in mind for whatever they're worth.

Let's give Dom time to heal. If he's got an injury in his foot, it'll take a while for him to get back on the job, given the amount of standing he does in his workday. If someone could please update when he reopens, that would be great.

That's really good writing, and I enjoy reading a report about a meal I was part of. I actually thought the stew pork tasted pretty good. And of the desserts I took home, I've already had the coconut roll, one of the lead pipes, and a rock cake, and liked them all. (For those of you familiar with Jamaican rock cakes, Bajan ones are different in that they don't have any coconut in them, so they're more properly a kind of sweet spiced cake.) The spice mixture used in them is very enjoyable. Otherwise, we're in full agreement. My favorite things were the coo coo and fish and the cowfoot soup, but the only thing that was a bit disappointing was the jerk chicken, and not for the taste but because of how dry it was. I don't think you mentioned the fried sweet plantains, which were interesting because they were breaded in a way I haven't experienced before.

But Fat Guy, what if someone deliberately designed a dish to look like another dish but taste completely different? I don't think photographic evidence should be considered sufficient for comparison of dishes in a legal proceeding.

I guess my memory of wines by the glass was erroneous, but I do agree that they have well-priced wines that are good. I presume the French name for quartino is carafe?

I was thinking kebabs, but depending on how you define "Asian," they might be off-limits for your purposes.

Did you look at the Hong Kong Restaurant Recommendations thread pinned at the top of this forum? It's 5 pages long, so you'll probably get some salient information there. And, here are search results for topics in the China forum with "Shanghai" in the title. Always use the "Search" button at the very top of the page (between "Help" and "Members"), unless you have to search using terms less than four letters long. Enjoy your trip!

That's shocking about the trout! In my experience, though, you can indeed order some wines by the glass at Lupa. Is there some new policy on that?

This comment is interesting in light of something Michael Kimmelman (I think) wrote in the Times on Friday (I think). He quoted a visual artist to the effect that painting has changed significantly owing to the fact that artists frequently paint now with the expectation that their work will end up in a museum rather than a private collection. Accordingly, the visual artist said, they frequently go for a quick effect rather than something deeper or more subtle; they don't paint as if the work will be lived with.[...] ← I would like to disassociate myself from this idea. It's foolish for artists to believe that pieces exhibited in museums aren't lived with, or try for quick effects instead of actual content that changes and deepens as you move your eyes around it -- that is, unless you are trying to appeal only to those who are ignorant or uneducated about art (the McDonalds of artists??). Nor do I think Warhol ennobled those Campbell's soup cans, etc. If and when I go to WD-50, if I think of Warhol while eating anything, I'll know it failed. And thereby, we see the limits to the utility of overly specific analogies between food by specific chefs and art by specific artists. If you like Warhol, you think that comparing someone's food to his work is a compliment; if you think Warhol's work was mere self-promoting crap that successfully tapped into a Zeitgeist of a moment, comparing someone's food to that work is damning. In terms of conceptual art, as far as I'm concerned, the whole idea is that one is being asked to judge it as a concept, not as art that should do something artistic when you look at it. If you do that with food, it won't work because, as was pointed out upthread, food has to taste good for people to accept it. However, if you have an interesting food concept and do it deliciously, more power to you! Similarly, I have no problem with art that includes an interesting concept, as long as it also works on some artistic level. If it's only a concept, write a manifesto or ad copy or something. Gee, I sound cranky, don't I? Well, I'm a musician and my father's a painter, so what do you expect? Carry on.

I'm afraid that many of us have cancers in the family. Is it possible that we should be concerned about these other things making it even more likely for us to get cancer in the future?

I also think that's a wonderful post. There are two problems with going back to a restaurant to give it another chance: (1) The expense involved, if it's an issue to you; (2) As you point out, you can't step in a river twice, so the dishes will probably be somehow different the second time, in any case. If we had to actually purchase artwork in order to experience it, there would be a much smaller audience for it. Aren't we lucky it's much cheaper to have a meal than to buy a painting or sculpture? But still, money is an object for some of us. In an ideal situation, though, I find it hard to disagree with your argument. Whether I'd still feel that way after dining at WD-50, though, I have no idea.

Well, that's not the way it happened, Pam. The first Jewish immigrants to what's now the United States came from Brazil, where they had sought asylum from Iberia. Brazil was briefly a Dutch colony. When the Portuguese took over Brazil, they brought the Inquisition there, so Jews sailed from Brazil to first Newport, Rhode Island, and then New York and Charleston, South Carolina (I think some also ended up in Savannah, Georgia and some other places). Undoubtedly, they brought traditions of kosher Iberian food with them. The first major wave of Ashkenazic immigration was after the failure of the 1848 revolution in Germany. Those political refugees tended to be highly educated and come with money, and they were responsible to a large degree for the current shape of cultural life in the US and also opened big department stores (Gimbels, etc.). They and their German Christian brethren also opened a lot of beer halls in places like the lower part of Manhattan, which was known as Neues Deutschland. It was only starting around the 1880s that a very big wave of immigration of Jews (and non-Jews) from Eastern Europe (Poland, Romania, Russia) began. That wave of immigration changed the nature of North American culture and food irrevocably (pastrami, bagels, bialys, knishes, etc.), but by the time it started, there had been Jews in North American cities like New York for some 230 years. Yes, there were already some Polish Jews in the US in the 18th century, but they were still very much the exception back then.

Kris, what about using satsuma imo instead of sweet potatoes, and a small chicken instead of a Cornish hen? Those would seem like good substitutes to me.

So that's why you weren't around! Thanks for letting us in on the good news; well deserved!

I've never been to Celeste. I don't think I've ever paid less than $30/person for dinner at Bianca, but that may have been because I had pasta plus a salad or ordered a pasta special, not to mention the times I had a primo and then a secondo.

That's a really good point. Since I don't have web access when I'm walking the streets, it has happened that I've passed a place that I remembered reading about in the forums, but I couldn't remember at that time whether the reports were positive or negative. I should also mention that I often don't mention mediocre meals -- but that's precisely because I don't think there's a high likelihood that other members would seek out those particular establishments or have high expectations if they ended up in them.

I've previously mentioned the defunct Karachi Rice Shop, which used to serve firni with a thin but visible layer of rosewater on top. I thought that dessert was delicious and I wish I could find a place that still serves firni like that. Seems like all I can find is kheer with cardamom but no (or perhaps very little) rosewater.

Their misspelling of mangia -- three times in a row -- is not impressive. The thing I wonder about is that there's no Indian city in the list, and how can you leave out Singapore or a Malaysian city or Bangkok? That's the problem with these kinds of top-10 lists: There are just too many worthy candidates.

I have a few replies to the comments I'm reading: (1) winegeek, you're an industry professional, so as far as I'm concerned, you get a free pass to engage in the professional courtesy of exercising discretion about who in your small world you prefer not to cross. In a similar manner, I would refrain from posting dirt about musician friends of mine (at least by name or identifiable reference) on a music discussion site. But I have to add that I have expressed very frank and open (sometimes really harsh) criticisms of some very famous musicians, so I hardly have a blanket policy of silence about my views on what is right and wrong in my profession, and I would think that anyone who feels strongly about right and wrong in relation to their profession would feel impelled to speak up at times. (2) As somewhat of a corollary to that: To reiterate, I am a diner. Once I pay my bill and leave the doors of a restaurant, I owe the staff, management, and ownership of that establishment nothing. I am under no obligation whatsoever to approach anyone associated with the restaurant before posting my unvarnished report on my experience there. The role of diner is the same as the role of customer. The rules of that role are lawful and proper behavior while in the establishment and complete payment for services rendered. Period. Well, one other thing, I suppose: A customer can libel or slander a restaurant only at his/her own potential risk. And of course, libel is completely prohibited on these boards. But that's it. Again: I owe the restaurant and its personnel nothing. And furthermore, if the place sucks, I want it to close, because I don't believe in rewarding incompetent work just because the employees are supporting themselves or their families. That's not my concern. If you want good reports on your establishment, do a good job. (3) But I owe eGullet Society members something. If my posts have any worth at all, it's because you can trust my honesty and integrity. You get no bullshit from me, and the restaurants I push get kudos from me only because they fulfill me as a diner. But if some of you -- especially non-industry people occupying the role of diner -- feel OK about engaging in mere advertising instead of balanced reporting, I'd like to ask you whether it's possible that there's something wrong with shortchanging us of your frank opinions, and whether you owe us that in your role of member. Let's remember that this is not ePublicRelations, whose mission statement is to ensure the immediate and indefinitely continuing profitability of establishments regardless of quality. Note that I'm not thinking of anyone in particular when posting this, but if the shoe fits, wear it, or better yet, take it off and mend your ways. As for the review, I have not read it in full, and nothing I've posted should be construed as having expressed or implied a view about the review. Sorry about that. However, I don't think this thread is actually about that review.

That's a good point about the satay. It felt like it took 20 more minutes to arrive than any of our other food, but I suppose the actual amount of waiting was less (maybe 15 minutes?).

That's an interesting comment. The problem is that generally if you are going to warn your friends about a place you might do it very openly without much restraint. If you want to warn a community about a place you kind of need to double check your facts and be wary that you may be treading on people's toes. ← We should always endeavor to avoid errors in our reports, regardless of whether we are talking to our friends, posting something, or writing a review for publication. (And note that according to the Member Agreement -- paraphrasing, now -- we are all obligated to do our best to avoid factual errors when posting on eGullet Forums, and represent that what we post constitutes our good-faith attempt to tell the truth as we understand it.) But having said that, I don't restrain myself more when making negative comments about a meal vs. positive comments, or vice versa, and I don't care if the fact that I did or didn't like something about a meal treads on someone's toes. That goes with the territory. We all have jobs to do. I will get very little sleep tonight, yet I have to teach my full Saturday schedule. That's life. I do not post here as a groupie or something; I am a diner. You can trust that my reports on what I eat are honest to the best of my ability, without personal favoritism or fear of ostracism or other forms of pressure from restaurant staffs or their supporters. As far as I'm concerned, likes and dislikes are more or less equally subjective, and we might as well recognize that and act accordingly. The biggest red flag to me is if I see that a listing of restaurants includes nothing but wildly laudatory reviews. Wouldn't that be the case for you, too?