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That's very odd, isn't it? But you know what's odder? I know women who were allowed into St. Peter's - yes that St. Peter's - wearing shorts, while their shorts-wearing male companions were made to wait outside.

Where is it?

And I think you're wrong. I think that in the summer, many Americans grow their own delicious tomatoes and other produce, and a great many more buy it from the various roadside stands and farmers' markets. My assumption is that most Americans live in urban areas, but I guess upon reflection, I think more are in suburbs. And by "really good produce" I mean Italian or near-Italian quality. Some California produce is quite good, but in general, not up to Italian. But I think that, having no way to measure what percentage of Americans have had really good produce or what "really good" is, we'll have to agree to disagree.

Based on what you're telling us, it sounds like the new owners are being a little airheaded. I'll bet it never occurred to them to wonder whether their music was driving people away or to ask what music used to be on the sound system before they bought the place. If they were told and ignored it - or they knew and didn't think of changing the music back - then they're true idiots or truly pigheaded or both and deserve to go out of business.

Have you tried using cardamom in desserts? I know some people here hate rosewater, but that's another thing that can be very nice in small but tastable quantities. Many Indian sweets are based on besan (split pea) flour, and the use of paneer (artisanal cheese that comes out a little like cottage cheese) is also common. But I'm also trying to think of flavors from Indian food in general, not just Indian desserts, and the only things I can think of other than nuts, coconut, and mango is something that works nicely in desserts but I can't remember having in an Indian dessert: Ginger. I guess the desserts (all non-Indian) that I've had with ginger have all used crystallized ginger, but using the juice of fresh ginger could be pretty interesting.

fifi, do you think there's something to the idea that those noisy rooms are designed for people who grew up going to noisy clubs and noisy concerts?

Yeah, some kind of coconut is needed for various recipes, though mostly those from the southern and middle parts of India's coastlines (a lot of the Keralese recipes I've looked at use coconut milk, for example). For some recipes, dried shredded coconut reconsituted with boiling water is sufficient. For others, you may need coconut cream or canned coconut milk. Anyone buying canned coconut milk needs to be careful to avoid cans with added sugar or appreciable amounts of added water, however.

I found this curious: I've never heard of anyone using the rind for anything. I don't consider it edible. Why would you want to make jelly out of something inedible?

Is the expression translatable, though? It conveys the sense of "Original (Chinese) Immigrants", I suppose. Kind of like the "Daughters of the American Revolution" or the "Native Sons of the Golden West" Got it. Thanks, Gary.

I think most Americans simply have never experienced really good produce. If they had, many of them would regret giving it up. Italian produce was a revelation for me. And yes, I found that the imported peaches from South Africa and even the items imported from the U.S. were of superior quality, for just the reasons you suggest: The Italians won't buy crap. Even more so than the French. In France, you can find great stuff. But the difference is that in Tuscany (which is the only place I actually shopped for myself every day), you'd have to look pretty hard to find something that wasn't excellent.

Were there many loud restaurants before the British Invasion in the 60s? I wouldn't know, of course, but I have a feeling that a liking for very loud music is something that came in with the rockers and continued from there. Not to say pre-rock music couldn't be loud, but not like The Who.

That's hilarious! Thanks for sharing that.

hsm, I think that many people are concerned with the issue you're discussing. Any reasonable person would want to avoid requiring excessive paperwork and stuff like that which is just a waste of time, and some regulations are themselves excessive or just plain stupid. But when you hear someone ranting against regulations in general, look out! There are government regulations that are essential to protect our health, safety, civil rights, privacy (whatever's left of that), and environment. When the government (especially its enforcement arms and - in some ways worse - the judiciary) becomes merely an extension of polluting, corner-cutting, or/and corrupt corporations, we are all potentially endangered.

Odd about the sneakers being a problem. I don't think my brother either wore a tie or formal shoes when we went.

No-one's mentioned the opening premise of Francis Raven's article: He got a crepe because he had to pee and the creperie wouldn't let him use their bathroom even in exchange for buying coffee. I think that sucks, but should that be discussed in a separate thread?

I thought that melanzana alla parmegiana was the phrasing at that Neapolitan trattoria, but it was 12 years ago, so I could easily be wrong about that kind of detail. The rest of my meal was spaghetti bolognese and bistecca alla pizzaiola, and it was a great meal, washed down with some pleasantly minerally Campanian wine.

August was mangosteen season in Terengganu, but they don't export very well. Better than rambutan do, but not very well.

Alright, no disagreements between us on that score.

Parmigiana di melanzane - real Italian food?? Not where we live! Do we need to talk about regional Italian cuisines? You know about regional Italian cuisines. Melanzana alla parmegiana wasn't being served at that trattoria for visitors from New Jersey or Staten Island.

Right. But if he feels more comfortable that way, why not? I guess that's where I come down. The last time I dressed up in a suit and tie for a meal was lunch at Bouley. I probably didn't have to wear one, but thought it would be appropriate dress for a supposedly (should I say ostensibly?) 4-star restaurant. One thing, though: In some restaurant dining rooms, if I don't wear a jacket, I feel cold.

Is the expression translatable, though?

Joel, here are some comments about the East Coast, for whatever they're worth: I have personal reasons to love Terengganu and the East Coast generally, because I spent two happy years of childhood there. That said, Tasik Kenyir in Ulu (inland) Terengganu is incredible! It's a huge artificial lake formed by damming the Terengganu River. I wish I could upload some photos, but I don't have the equipment. My mother, who's been to Burma and New Zealand, among other places, said it was the most beautiful place she'd ever seen. See if you can get permission to go up to the top of the dam and shoot photos from there. I also like Kota Bharu, which has beautiful royal buildings in a style that as far as I know is unique to that city. I didn't go scuba diving, but my brother did, off Pulau Perhentian, and loved it. Obviously, you won't be able to do that during or shortly after monsoon season, however. Go to the markets everywhere and enjoy the wonderful fruits (if you have some more time to kill in Kuala Terengganu, walk a few blocks to the park where they have all kinds of plants, chickens, and so forth on display and for sale), and when you're in Kota Bharu, make sure to have some Ayam Percik and Nasi Ulam and sample the sweets in the Pasar Malam (night market). Have a wonderful time, and I hope you don't get a stomach bug. Strangely, in the 1970s, only the cities had piped water, but piped water was considered safe everywhere in Malaysia, and now, it seems that all but the most remote villages have piped water, but piped water is considered unsafe to drink everywhere in the country. I found that kind of depressing. I also recommend that you learn some Malay before you go, if you don't already know some. You probably won't need it in KL, where English is very widely spoken, but even in big cities on the East Coast, most people do not speak English.

I found the produce more consistently good in Italy than France, for whatever that's worth, but it might be partly a regional issue. After all, I've spent more time in Tuscany than any other region of Italy.

I like a good melanzana alla parmegiana, and it's real Italian food - or it can be, anyway. My experience of the apotheosis of that dish was in a trattoria in the University quarter of Naples.

I can't remember eating in any restaurants in New York, no matter how cheap, where I wouldn't be welcome in my suit if I'm still dressed for a concert I just played. I don't see a downside to dressing up, if someone feels like doing it for whatever reason. That said, I seldom dress up unless I'm going to a place I consider fancy-shmancy.