thom

Afternoon all, People always debate lists such as these (which is of course a good thing for our exposure and awareness) but I think some good points have been made here and Chris's background explanation makes things clearer. The fact is that if something can't be empirically measured (height, weight, volume, speed) then it is always simply a matter of opinion, and we can argue whose opinions are worth more/more educated till we are blue in the face. The fact remains that 300+ restaurant critics, experts, chefs and restaurateurs (and Andy and Gary of course) is not a bad panel. Personally I think 'Best' lists for restaurants are similar to those for music (see virtually any issue of Q magazine). If you did a '50 Best albums' list should it be ranked dependent on technical aspects such as 'quality of composing' or 'musicianship'? If so, you would probably end up with a list of 50 classical albums, which is fair enough but it does render the list pointless to anyone wanting a useful guide to the worlds greatest albums. No Sergeant Peppers? No Pet Sounds, No Kind of Blue? No Nevermind? No Blue Lines? No Bob the Builder? The fact is that although both restaurants and albums can be measured on technical aspects this does not do the whole experience justice and you can actually have much more meaningful discussions by talking about the albums/restaurants that you love and then discussing why. That's my two-pennoth worth anyway... Cheers Thom

Gary, Ah Shaun must just have been supporting 'National Sweetbread Week' then... Cheers Thom

Gary, Small world indeed. I take it you were there on Tuesday 16th? I ask because I had popped in for a meeting with Shaun that afternoon, and he was trimming sweatbreads as I turned up. I'm glad you enjoyed the meal. I have been eating at Merchant House for the last five years and have never had anything less than an excellent meal. I must admit I am a sucker for Shaun's whole 'no nosense' attitude which shines through in the construction of the menu; the presentation of the dishes and even the copywriting of the winelist and the restaurant website. I too picked up a copy of his book 'How to cook better', which looks intriguing. That said, the cover notes do say that Restaurant magazine voted Merchant House one of the 'top 300' restaurants in the world, rather than the 'top 50'. I would tell everyone (yet again) to go to the Merchant House, but Shaun tells me Saturday dinners are now booked up for the year and weekday dinners till around June. Guess if I want to enjoy the a Shaun Hill type meal in the next few months I'll have to read his book and hit the stove. Yes, I'm sure if I follow the recipes closely it should be Michelin standard or there abouts... Cheers Thom

Hi Chloe, I know this is late in the day, but I must echo the previous comments that as Old Trafford is effectively in the middle of an industrial estate good eating is thin on the ground. The only exception is the Waters Reach, which used to be a Gary Rhodes diffusion place but has apparently improved since the connection was severed. It is in a hotel right near the ground, which used to be a 'Quality Hotel' but I think the brand may have changed? Going into Manchester is by far your best option, and they are previous threads on here which give you ideas of places to eat. A good bet may be to focus on Castlefield (good call Mrs Woman) which is the Southernmost district of the City Centre and therefore a short ten minute walk from Old Trafford along the canal (or the equally non-picturesque dual carriageway). Good options there would be afore-mentioned Choice; the Ox (decent-ish gastropub with some interesting dishes); Dukes 92 (Huge canalside pub which specialises in big ploughmans lunches - theres an under-rated British classic - with great hulking lumps of cheese or pate) and Dimitris (decent, cheap Greek stodge). In terms of 'What else can we do?' you are actually spoilt for choice. Salford Quays (site of the Commonwealth games triathalon) is right nearby, and it houses the Imperial War Museum North (Libeskind designed museum which whilst a bit 'contemporary-interactive' for my liking is still impressive) and The Lowry (enormous multi-facted arts centre housing permanent Lowry displays, temporary installations, a couple of excellent theatres and a decent coffee shop). Of course Old Trafford itself has a great United museum, and if your family fancy indulging themselves in peculiarly English pecadillios they could even take a look at the nearby Old Trafford cricket Ground. Slightly less cultural options involve the Lowry discount designer shopping mall (which has chains like Pizza Express) or the attached cinema. Further afield Castlefield houses the outstanding Museum of Science and Industry, which is well worth a visit if you have kids, and the partially excavated orginal Roman fort. Enjoy, and of course I hope we stuff Porto 3:0. Cheers Thom

Carlovski, I just knew someone from here would be from Radcliffe... Actually, some of my friends live there (though they claim they are in Whitefield), and of course you have a famous ex-resident in film director Danny 'Trainspotting' Boyle. I like dark dank pubs too. Avoid the touristy ones (Peveril of the Peak etc) and go the fabulous Marble Arch on Rochdale Rd. Used to be my local, and it hasn't succumbed to 'Gasto-ness' yet (until recently the only food was Tunnocks caramels or Seabrooks crisps). Or, if you want even more traditional boozers try the little known Jolly Angler and nearby White Horse between Piccadilly and Great Ancoats St (quick before the yuppies move in). The Castle on Oldham St is also full of traditional back street city-pub 'characters'. Badger1234 (I can't remember the actual numbers) is also a Manc, Bapi has roots here and even Gary M is a Northerner (although he comes from the wrong side of the Pennines). Any more lurkers from the cool end of the country? Cheers Thom

Bapi, Glad you spotted the dig... Be glad to meet up, it seems we're getting close to establishing an egullet enclave up here in Manchester. Cheers Thom

Stephen, Fair comments RE the Ox, it has all the obligatory gastropub characteristics - red walls, original art, no table linen, chalkboards etc but it never quite hits the spot for me. Nice to meet a fellow Manc on here by the way. I find it amazing that Manchester has so few gastropubs. It is a major city with a huge restaurant scene tending towards the good-quality/good value/informal end of the market; throw in lots of students and a burgeoning city centre population all looking for a comfortable 'local' restaurant and the place should be teaming with gastropubs. I think lack of venues suitable for refurb may play a part. Many of Manchester's city centre pubs are boxy, pokey and dark with small windows; they were for the city's poor, and are often tucked away down sidestreets with minimal decoration. This is a direct counterpoint to some of the fabulous Victorian and Edwardian drinking houses you see on street corners in places like Liverpool and London (and in the suburbs of Manchester). Two lights do shine brightly in Manchester's gastropub scene though. The first is the 'Chop House Company', which run Mr Thomas's Chophouse and re-opend the long-established Sam's Chophouse too. Both venues have a wonderful cosy feel, but my favourite is Mr T's which is in a rickety Victorian townhouse which almost appears to lean against the adjoining building as if onsteady on its feet. Interior is gorgeous - green glazed walls, mirrors and dark wood, tiled floors - all of it original and with minimal messing about. It also has a recently opened outdoor area at the back behind St Annes Church which is one of the best al-fresco eating spots in the city. Mr T's is a guide regular, and always gets pointed out to tourists (in everything from the NY times to inflight magazines). Clientele tends to be the pin-stripe boys during the week (Gary M...) and shoppers at the weekend. Menu at both places is classic British cuisine with lots of good fish, seafood, and game (everthing arrives furred and feathered for butchery onsite). Classics include their steak and kidney pudding (yes pudding, not pie), braised steak with mustard dumplings and quite wonderful fish cakes. Desserts are tip top too, and the portions are bloody enormous. Award-winning wine list also deserves a mention. A nice story from last time I was there (at Sam's): After ordering parsnip mash the waitress came out and said the chef wasn't happy with it and there would be a delay to make some more. Not good that they cocked it up (I can picture some poor commis getting an earbashing for overmashing or going heavy with the seasoning) but nice to admit it rather than send out substandard product or just leave me waiting... Second place has a link to the first. Robert Owen-Brown is a well-respected chef on the Manchester scene, having cooked at Reform, opened his own place in the local backwater of Radcliffe (Roscoes) and then returned to the city centre for an excellent stint at Mr T's followed by time at Lounge Ten. Now, he has taken the gamble and reopened the dank little den of thieves that was the Bridge Tavern (Bridge St) as 'The Bridge' (Gastropub!). It's a basic little space, and the decor was a bit funny when I was there. Nice simple 'gastropubby' stylings offset by a fairly awful 'Yate's Wine Lodge/Airport' style swirly carpet. When I went the place had barely opened and only the bar menu was available though the full menu should be available now. The groundfloor bar itself was still staffed and run by the brewery (though I think this is due to change) and an upstairs dining room should also be opening soon. Another nice story actually: I went for a bite to eat whilst looking after my four week old son so that Sophie could go and shop (or have her hair done or one of those other girly things). I knew that having only just opened in the pre-Christmas deadzone The Bridge would be quiet, and so it was. I got a nice table, no crowds or smoke and a nice pint. The minute my food arrived, Jack (my son) woke up and started crying, I'm sure the more experienced parents amongst you could have predicted this. My face dropped as I realised that eating my lunch and pacifying an infant simultaneously was beyond me, but the FOH manager (and Robert's girlfriend) came over and offered to 'bounce' (technical term) Jack to keep him quiet whilst I had my lunch. She did, he did, and I did - wonderful. Food was good - a very competent fish and chips, but the full menu is meant to be much more extensive, with a focus on local produce and quality ingredients. I have seen three outstanding reviews (in City Life, the Metro and the Manchester Evening News respectively - the latter gave it five stars, an honour granted on only three occasions in 2003). So I am planning to go back as soon as parenthood allows, and would heartily recommend it (based on Robert's track record) in the meantime. As an aside, Robert has done a simple yet clever thing with the pub sign. Nearby there is an uninspiring Victorian stone bridge across the Irwell which formed the subject of the old sign. Barly 100 yards away the Lowry 5-star hotel has opened on the opposite bank, and it is connected to the city centre via a rather beautiful white, sail-like, curved bridge designed by internationally renowned architect Santiago Calatrava. The new pub sign is painted in the traditional style but features the shiny new bridge; a rather pleasing melding of Manchester's past and it's recent cultural reinvention and kind of a summing up of the gastro-pub ethos. Edit: Because you only see your mistakes when you press 'Submit Post'. Cheers Thom

Bux, You're right; as the story in The Independent has shown Paul takes criticism personally, but only in the sense of wanting to respond personally rather than simply stamping his be-clogged feet. I think he would be interested in a Q&A here, and judging by the way this thread took off I am sure he would attract a crowd. As regards the Cleveland comment, I hang my head in shame. I did not mean to besmirch anothers hometown, particularly one whose rich cultural tapestry includes the Rock and Roll hall of Fame... Cheers Thom

All, Andy, thanks for the wise comments RE Paul's pedigree. Let's go back to the original post quoting Paul's words. Do we all agree with it? Obviously not. The real question though (based on this threads evolution) is: Does this isolated comment provide enough evidence to discount his restaurant and damn his skills as a chef? Obviously not. Paul does like to write in a way with blends irony and passion with a soupcon of (mild) lunacy, and the quotes don't always reflect the man or his cooking. The last faux pas I remember was when he mentioned the fairly rugged style of critique you could expect from his local clientele - "they'd come and brick your windows" were his words I think, which didn't go down well with the local press. Genuinely, does anyone here believe a chef should be judged on a soundbite rather than on his cooking? Lets recount the basic points here: Paul Kitching made a provocative comment about steak that many here disagree with. This is not enough material to judge his skills as a chef or a restaurant. As a chef lauded by Heston and Ramsay, mentored by Shaun Hill, and feted by Michelin and the Good Food Guide I think it is fair to assume he knows more about steak specifically and cooking generally than most posters here. The people who have eaten his food declare him a fine chef indeed. Give the guy a break, come eat his food. Oh, a quick aside: Comparing Manchester to Cleveland? Please, Manchester is Britains second city in terms of culture and cuisine. It has consistently had more good restaurants (according to Hardens, Michelin, Good Food, Time Out guides) than any British city except London, and it's broad cultural mix means you can eat anything from Korean to Danish, Armenian to Malaysian. We may not be London, but I don't think we are Cleveland... Cheers Thom

Suzanne, Thanks for your comments. I heartily agree that something in our Anglo-Saxon breeding just makes us Brits take "eccentric twits" to heart. I think we just have to accept that this most English of personality types doesn't always travel so well. Tch, you should try our warm beer... I also agree that telling you 'how weird' an experience is going to be rather spoils it for me to. It's such a PR-able story though that the hype always seems to get to you first. As I mentioned here and on the thread in UK restaurants I found a lot of Juniper's dishes distracting but it was worth it for the stupendous dishes inbetween. I suppose it is a story as old as the hills that 'eccentrics' and 'nerds' plough a lonely, and seldom appreciated furrow, at the cutting edge of any industry yet when they (rarely) suceed they it can be profound and magical. First caveman: "Gracious, is Tarquin putting his chunk of mammoth leg in the fire?" Second caveman: "Yes, he's a lunatic. Last week he soaked a perfectly good sabre tooth tiger steak in mud. Nutcase..." Tarquin: "No hang on guys, I'm onto something here, this tastes bloody good." First Caveman: "I wish he'd shut up I've just dropped my foie gras..." Etc... Cheers Thom

I promise I'm not on Paul Kitching's payroll, but I just had to drop this link in from a prior Juniper thread: http://enjoyment.independent.co.uk/food_an...sp?story=377560 It's a lovely article in the Independent newspaper (UK). A simple tale of critic slates restaurant; chef phones and apologises for the critics poor experience and invites critic for another meal to redress the balance; critic has lovely meal but foolishly offers to cook dinner in return; chef accepts, critic wonders what on earth he was thinking... Gives you a good walk through many of Paul's signature dishes (including the fantastic hare) and also an insight into the sort of down-to-earth guy he is. Cheers Thom

Cheers for that Carlovski, I know how your family feels. One of the first £40+ a head meals I paid for myself (as a proper 22 year old grown-up) was at Oliver Peytons very cool but now defunct Air restaurant (top floor of Mash+Air). We had a very three course nice meal, amuse, petit four and plenty of cocktails but I still had to get off the number 42 bus in Rushmolme on the way home and drunkenly eat a Sajaan kebab. As is tradition, I thought at the time I had successfully worked some origami magic to contain the kebab contents in the wrapper as I ate it, but in the morning I found scralet tikka juice on my jeans and shoes. How does it get there? Cheers Thom

Hello, Just done a mildly ranty response to the original thread. I've eaten at Juniper, in the company of that esteemed restaurant scribe Mr Jay Rayner. I didn't let that spoil things though, and actually had a great night. We ordered an 8 course tasting menu, but actually ended up having 35 dishes. Unbelivable... The lady FOH (Paul, the chef's, wife) said he often does this, as he very much follows his inspiration in the kitchen, and once he's 'in the zone' he gets carried away. We started off with 'spaghetti puree', which was seemed to be tomato pasta pureed and then piped onto a big white plate in the form of the word spaghetti. Tasted ok, but very silly. Dishes came thick and fast after that. As noted in the other thread you couldn't help but get swept up in his sense of fun, but the menu was also a little chaotic and this did become exhausting. Consecutive dishes clashed, and certain elements (curried mayonaises) appeared much to often. Some of the dishes I disliked (curried aubergine fudge), some were just lunacy ('powders', which was a selection of tiny piles of coloured powders all over a plate - could be saffron or coffee, powdered red pepper or salt, you just wet your finger and dabbed). Where the dishes were good though they were outstanding. A couple of the shot foams (old news, but hey) stood out, particularly the mango and beetroot, and the the saddle of rabbit, beef and salmon were each beautiful. Special mention also to the 'hot cross bun souffle' which was so good and witty I cant believe other chefs havent ripped it off yet. On the whole I did enjoy the meal, but by the end I was a little jaded. If I could have cut out the dishes that were just 'background distraction' and focus on the goodies then it would have been a very special meal indeed. If I could pick my own eight dishes and make him promise to leave the mayonaise pot shut I would be back again like a shot. Paul is a very good chef, doing some wonderful edge-of-your-seat cooking, but I think the whacky side cheapens it, and places him some way behind the steely, obsessive dicipline of Ferran and Heston. The service was lovely, even though they could occasionally not stifle the grin as they read out the increasingly bizarre dish titles. The decor is a bit dark and quirky, and as a suburban restaurant in a mediocre suburb of South Manchester/North Cheshire the clientele is a bit eclectic and not always as appreciative as they should be. Paul's a great guy, and if you haven't there and fancy a interesting culinary adventure then I would definitely give it a try. Ramsay and many others think the guys is a genius, Michelin have given him a star, and they cant all be wrong. Cheers Thom

Gosh... What a lot of spilt bile. Will keep this brief as I'm going to write a fuller piece of Juniper on the UK Restaurants thread but here goes: Have any of you eaten there? Well hush up a minute because I have so let me put you in the picture. Is Paul Kitching a genius? Paul Kitching is a very clever, if (some may say) slightly eccentric chef. Many industry people whose opinions I respect (Gordon Ramsay being the biggest name) think the man is a genius, and even the mighty Jay Rayner agrees. Why can't I have a steak? His restaurant is very similar in its ethos to Heston at the Fat Duck and Adria at El Bulli. Molecular gastronomy is his thing (though he may not like the term) and like the afore-mentioned places it will infuriate as many people as it excites. You may go to Fat Duck to get egg and bacon ice cream, but you wouldn't go asking for a big bloody steak - by going you are submitting yourself to the chef's philosophy, that's the deal and if you don't like it just don't go. Is it any good? Depends. I have eaten there and found the experience slightly bemusing. Some of the dishes were staggeringly good, whilst other made me wince. That said I have read similar reviews from respected writers regarding El Bulli and the Fat Duck. I have to say that I found both the menu less structured and more chaotic than I would imagine either EL or FD to be. Dishes existed in isolation, but over the course of a menu some didn't follow on naturally, and certain flavours cropped up too much (curried mayonaises). I think he is without doubt a very talented chef, and has a Michelin star on that basis (standard of service and decor probably will stop him going to two). He doesn't spend half the year in a lab like FA, or have shed fulls of scientific equipment like Heston, but to be honest his slightly more relaxed attitude shows through in the hard-to-resist sense of fun behind the menu. I think people who have eaten in the FD and EB would place Paul a distant third, but he is still doing some great stuff. Would it work in London? Foolish point, and the Mancunian in me deplores the swipe at my home town. Does it even matter? It is actually pretty tough to make a Michelin starred restaurant work outside the SE, particularly one that is so unusual. London is undeniably more competitive, driving standards higher, but running a restaurant outside London has its own problems such as the flow of trade and finding staff. Many 'London' restaurants fail if they try to expand beyong the M25, in the same way that outsiders get their fingers burnt when trying to crack the capital. Either way, whether it would work in London is more down to business model than the standard of the food; Garfunkels works in London, try launching that in Manchester... I have to say Paul is one of the nicest and most entertaining chefs you could meet; a really lovely guy. He is passionate about food and is trying hard to do something different in a tough location. I don't know how regularly I would return to Juniper; it has its problems with strange decor, and completing the 36 (yes) dishes I had was an exhausting roller coaster it would be tough to contemplate every other week. I think like FD you go there infrequently when you fancy challenging your tastebuds and educating yourself, but sometimes you just need tasty easy food. Slate Paul if you must, but why not give it a try before hand. Cheers Thom PS Bloody hell, I've just scanned my post and I have no idea where all that came from. I said I would be brief so excuse my extended rant.

Kit, I hate to admit it, but I chickened out. I was hoping to meet a friend based in South Derbyshire on my way back from London (Stoke being one of the stations on the London-Manchester route) but in the end we met at a later date in Buxton instead (not far from my home town of Glossop). Buxton is actually an intriguing one as regards food and drink. It is quite a well-off town, with a fantastic architectural heritage, and a glorious position in the middle of the Peak District which makes it quite touristy (the Buxton mineral water brand helps too). So far though, the restaurants have been poor, with those that are there offering quirky interpretations of what was fashionable 'posh' food 20 years ago (think the Fawlty Towers Gourmet Evening). It was at one of these places that I happened to eat in, and the meal was friendly, patchy, and in places bizarre (local lamb was very good though). Lately things seem to be changing. Buxton is becoming a popular commuter town, the beautiful Georgian crescent and spa are bing refurbed with a luxury hotel added, the stunning domed Devonshire Hospital now houses the University of Derby hospitality department and even Pizza Express has opened! I offer the latter not as a solution to the dearth of decent places, but those PE boys do have nose for money, and if a 'play it safe' corporate like them decides to open it normally means an area is upwardly mobile. So, I avoided Stoke, but I still didn't manage to avoid a mediocre dining experience. Cheers Thom

Bread. Bread, bread, bread, bread, bread. Soft rippable tandoor nans; tangy sourdough; knobbly multigrain; Norlander Rye; banana bread; walnut bread; soft almost damp Warbutons Toasty; ah the list goes on... Jeffrey Steingarten correctly identified that there are two types of people in the world; those who could live on bread alone, and those who could not. I'm the former, and anyone in the other camp is just plain wrong and possibly mentally unhinged. Cheers Thom

Also, try Harden's London 'Cheap Eats' guide (http://www.hardens.com/guides/guides.htm). I find them pretty reliable, and the latest edition was due out in December so it should be relatively hot of the press. Cheers Thom

Sarah, Thanks for that, that's just the sort of thing I was waiting to hear. Like you I appreciate the convinience of having the separate grill and ovens and as I said I did think they actually looked pretty nice. I think our local guy had the 90cm version at about £1,150 too. Although I was anti the 'traditional' styling of some of the models I must admit to also quite liking the Elan range with the coiled 'spring' style handles. My girlfriend likes the fact that the latter comes in cream as it will match the cream fridge, cream Dualit and cream blender she has carefully assembled. So, I seriously think both the Toledo and the Elan have edged ahead of the Smeg in my wish-list (sorry Gary). Oh, I have a general range question too (which may be momentously stupid): Do bigger/better ranges actually have more 'power' to create higher temperatures? Obviously domestic ovens don't hit the same heights as commercial models meaning things such as pizza bases can suffer; that said, do some domestic ovens do better than others? Cheers Thom

Ok, I'm changing my story. A couple of people have warned me off Baumatics, but I have now warmed to Rangemaster. My local electrical place actually has them in stock, and having played with the Toledo and Elan I like them much more than I thought I would. They seem very sturdy and well thought out (extra grill plus two ovens is good), and the styling is much better than I thought. The only one they didn't have was the Professional range, which in the catalogue looks quite nice (though never used by 'professionals' I'm sure - Ok, unless you count doctors and lawyers...). All the models were competitively priced too, I can get a 6-burner, 2-oven, dual fuel 110cm range for around £1,300, against around £1,700 for a comparable 100cm Smeg model. More questions then: Anyone regularly used Toledo, Elan or Professional Rangemasters? If so are they good? Cheers Thom

Yes Gary, but man cannot live on Brewers Fayre alone...

Chaps, For myself (sorry to hi-jack the topic) I need a range as I have free-standing kitchen furniture rather than fitted. So, I'm still trying to get to grips with the different brands out there. Latest option gleaned from the Good Food Show yesterday: CAPLE Never heard of it, but apparently they are made by De Longhi about 5 miles from the Smeg factory in Italy and have been imported to England for about 5 years. The style is (on purpose) very similar to the Smeg's and quality (based on very limited mucking about with the model on the stand) seemed fine. Relatively chunky and clunky. The dealer had a couple of other brands on the stand (something from NZ and also a rather fine £4,500 Bocuse), but the Caples seemed to form the bulk of his business. His story is that quality is as good as Smegs, and they compete head to head by pricing their models (PLUS hood and splashback) against the comparable Smeg model (excluding extras). So, A Smeg A2 is approx £1,700 best price, and the very similar Caple model is £1,795 with hood and splashback. Also, I was promised an extra £195 off if I booked during the show (Tch, salespeople...). All comes down to - "Are these ranges any good?". Has anyone every heard of Caple, and more importantly does anyone have any feedback on them? Answers on a postcard etc etc... Cheers Thom

That's the sort of post I was waiting for! It seems that on a roughly like for like basis the Baumatic's come in at around £700 as opposed to about £1,600 for the Smeg. If quality is similar then that is a LOT of brand to pay for... I think the Baumatics look fine (on the web) but I'm still trying to find a stockist local to Manchester so I can go in and tweak their knobs. As it were... Any fellow Northerners care to chime in? Cheers Thom

'Oatcakes'...? I'm genuinely intrigued. Cheers Thom

The response so far has confirmed my worst fears. Except the one about clowns. Cheers Thom

Here's a challenge for you: If (all hypothetical at this stage) I took it upon myself to want to eat out in (or around) Stoke-on-Trent how and where would I go about it? Michelin, AA, Hardens, Time Out, Good Food and even the mighty t'internet have all struck blanks, so please help me out. God help me I'm depending on you lot... Cheers Thom