Suvir Saran

It is the same kind of rose we use in India. Highly fragrant, not the most attractive, but most haunting in its smell. And yes it was never the prized rose of the British rose gardens around India.

Dstone, I really do not disagree with the possibilities and realities you share. IN fact we agree about more in each of your points than we disagree. What will keep what you say from being reality from becoming so is our very greedy and reckless need to find instant gratification for the most indulgences we have in our lives. Certainly any person can understand, absorb and live the lives and subtleties of those from another land. In fact, most often those from the outside study and understand a culture far more richly and beautifully and completely for they are "studying" it. The rest are simply living it and most often even without noticing what they are living. That is why I said in response to one of your points, that many never live a culture, but living in the lap of a culture can leave them with memories that can always be called upon to enrich them about their own culture when needed. A foreigner can only understand and live another culture when they are willing to learn it and not simply judge it or want cheap instant gratification. That desire to want quick results can certainly humor people for a few moments, maybe at a stretch even a few years, but then the bones are exposed as being hollow. What good is that? It is towards that hollow education and understanding of cultures that I refer. Some years ago a friend of ours died in India. His death was appropriately covered in the NY Times. At his funeral big honchos from several continents showed up. Many were long time personal friends. More simply sycophants and want to be friends. Some just superficial people that knew they could see and be seen on that most humble and solemn events of ones life. I share this mans death with you for at that funeral and at the memorial that followed, world leaders, artists, businessmen, family and friends came together to mourn the death of a 21st century Mahatma Gandhi. It is a HUGE name I ascribe to another now dead man, but I feel fine in doing so. John Bissell was the name of the man. Decades ago, he went on a Ford or Fulbright scholarship to India. He wanted to study the lives of craftsmen and how India could move into the 21st century and still have some semblance of that part of its history that is richer than what many continents could not find in an entire mass of land. What did this man end up doing? He spent the rest of his lifetime in New Delhi and died there. Born to wealth and affluence in the US, he used his private school and Ivy League education to give him a vision that was able to show him a future in simply exploring another land and culture. This man founded an empire in India. Humble in some ways and yet most humbling in others. A "white-man" gave dignity and respect to craftsmen and weavers and artisans working with textiles and home furnishings and educated them to become literate but also gave them means of being educated craftsmen with pride and means of making a living doing what their forefathers had done. Fab India was for the longest time a Delhi phenomenon. I am sure Vivin and any others that have grown up in Delhi would be able to share details about the very simple textiles and clothing that Fab India sold. It was started with the main goal of giving Indians those clothing items and also household textiles that would make Mahatma Gandhi proud. All fabrics were Indian, made my local craftsmen and also ever craftsman found dignity in creating and also were able to live in dignity and with hope for their kids. John and his company created schools for the children of the craftsmen, educated these kids and artisans to live knowing all that was happening in the world that was far removed from their very rural and rustic lifestyle, while also sharing with them the respect they deserved in having gifted the world with this art they shared with a larger world only for these artists were continuing what was shared by their elders. While certainly John made a handsome living with time, he also shared a handsome amount with each of his employees. So, a foreigner in India was able to give life to traditions of textile making in India from some areas that would have been otherwise lost to pages of history alone. But when one asked John what he did, he never found the need to call it anything but what it really was, a store that sold Indian textiles. People tried calling his store an American style Indian shop, shop run by an American, or fusion of Indian and American, but these were unfortunately the same crass lot of people that would find great pride in ascribing labels in all other parts of their lives. John had little patience with this type of people. He enjoyed the best of the world, people who afforded going to these labeled people chased after John, John never chased after them. John was happy absorbing, sharing, creating and leaving behind a living legacy. He only succeeded with this for he came to India bereft of ego but full of desire to learn, accept, endure and absorb. Today, Fab India has stores around the country. Some even overseas. It is always a point of great titillation for me when I am in the midst of some of the worlds foremost taste makers, style makers and power brokers in the economic and political fields and I see them wearing the most humble garb created by Fab India. These are the same people with whom I have shopped at Cavalli, Prada, Zegna and YSL, but when they let their guard down, when we have been vacationing in areas where the gang of us has been together as friends with friends, we have all had on Fab India clothing, eaten simple meals from across India t hat would make John proud and respected those very basic traditions from across India and the world that often do not get noticed for they are so basic, but are always present, one only has to be willing to look way deeper than the surface and be ready to ride in what could be a rocky terrain, but certainly the most real, rich and exciting. So, if John could break into a country as completely as he did, anyone can break into another culture. But as John Whiting said, there has to be humility. Not a humility that is seen these days in Yoga salons, but a humility that has no face, it has to be real to be understood. But when it exists, one can live anywhere and be accepted, create, add and take from that land. But to get to that point, takes a very strong sense of self-respect and comfort with ones own culture and ones own lot in life. For if we want to really learn and understand anything, we need to be willing to be students.

I have been in Dallas the last couple of days and will be here till Saturday... I "LUV the Accient" (trying to write it as they say it) and they LUV my accient... and so we each smile at the other. They speak Southern and when I copy them, I speak Southern Indian.

You have not even come close to making a scratch into understanding even just the cuisine of one state of India by mentioning the dishes you have eaten and enjoyed and found in most restaurants. Dstone, I travel across India learning about food and I am yet to make a pronouncement that I feel I have understood even one city or states food. I am very confident that I have largely understood the food of my community, but again, every time I speak with new members of my community, I discover new dishes, variations and traditional recipes that belonged to one nuclear family and were part of an ancient tradition of our family but were somehow kept in one household. So, Indian food as Simon Majumdar rightly observed, is one of the most ancient cuisines and yet the most modern. It is always changing and one is always discovering. You are talking a Billion plus people. With many social, religious and cultural beliefs that are different from the other. How can one expect there to be anything but a very VAST ARENA with amazing and mind boggling diversity. It would be foolish to expect anything. We have had in India no dictatorship that could have stifled natural growth. So with time and freedom, we have only evolved even more. You are not alone; I stand by you and with millions of others in not having succeeded in discovering even a very small part of Indian cuisine yet. IN fact if one were to take the menus of all Indian restaurants across the US, you would come with nothing more than a 100 recipes that are mostly similar and form nothing more than a ripple in the ocean of recipes and dishes one would find in India. Dosas and Idlis and Vada are South Indian but again, these are the very basic dishes that are not even considered food really. They are snacks or breakfast foods to the people who these dishes are borrowed from. Similarly the Chaats that we now find in certain restaurants form a very small part of what is available back home and in what great rendering of those recipes. But we get all excited eating them for we have no other option yet. The Rogan Josh, Saag Paneer, Malai Kofta, Chicken Tikka Masala and Vindaloo are a few of the many million dishes one could supplant here and still only make a dent. So yes, the arena is HUGE and the restaurants in India have only now begun to explore dishes different from those you mention. When were you in India? What restaurants did you go to? What cities? What fancy Indian restaurants do you frequent? What dishes do you consider their fusion dishes? Maybe you want to start a thread on Indian fusion restaurant dishes. It could be a place for all of us to discover these dishes and restaurants.

DStone, I will take more time and answer some of your other points when I get back to NYC... but if you need answers sooner, browse around the Indian forum, most answers and other questions that have been asked by others are questioned by people from around the site in this forum. I will spend more time at the site after Saturday.

That is exactly what I said we need in terms of finding acceptance for fusion dishes. New does not make complex and tasty. Fusion does not always have to be complex and good. But with Tabla behind us and in existence, that is what I said.. we need to now find new restaurants come up that share a cuisine that is different and complex and wonderful and has certainly elements borrowed from many cultures or even just a couple. But we are yet to see that successfully rendered in the realm of even remote Indian cooking. The food has thus far been only Indian or French. A mediocre version of fusio thus far of the two. What has been good at these restaurants have been basic dishes from each culture that have been left pretty much the same albeit some very minute almost inconsequential addition or change. I too am hoping that the "American cooking different, more complex dishes" can be translated into the world of America trying to cook Indian food. Thus far most tries at cooking anything remotely Indian has been a pathetic attempt at cooking something with spices. But cooking with spices alone does not make food Indian. Even Indian pets eat food cooked with spices. But what they eat is called pet food and not food eaten by humans interested in very subtle, complex and very spectacular dishes. That learning of Indian food is not prevalent in the US at least to my knowledge. There are chefs here that are working and do so with little if any attention. But when they and the market are ready, I am sure we will see some of the American magic. But thus far, there has been little if any better Indian food here. Leave alone more complex. We are yet to discover in the US basic Indian dishes. The dishes you mentioned as having eaten in India are dishes that are tired old Indian dishes. Most Indian restaurants thriving around cosmopolitan cities would have left them out of their menus. Like in the US and several other countries, Indians too are looking for newer and more complex or at time much simpler dishes. The dishes you mention are the mainstream of what is found in restaurants, and far from what is eaten in homes or even in finer social settings. When I was in Bombay a couple of months ago, the most amazing banquet I ate at was in the poolside garden of a friends country estate in Alibagh. A home made with several million US dollars in a remote area in Maharashtra, this was a home that could have been in the Hamptons and be the prize of the town. But here we were in Alibagh, having taken the ferry from Bombay, we took a beautiful road trip to the home. The swimming pool had mosaic tiles and a bar situated in the pool itself with stools and standing area carved inbetween the pool. The bar was served through a tunnel so that the bar could be without pool water and yet those enjoying it and the goodies coming out of it could be still immersed in water if they chose. Grilled baby corn and eggplant tikkas were being served for my vegetarian father. Amazing array of local seafood for those that enjoyed it was available. VIndaloo, Rogan Josh, Chicken Tikka Masala, Saag Paneer, Do Piaza and Malai Kofta were absent. We had local curries and other exciting dishes that were better versions of home recipes from yesteryears. If you scan through the Indian forum, you will find many such dishes mentioned. We have discovered home foods on this forum several times. What we have yet to find in the US is even a single restaurant that has been able to translate the wonders of Indian cooking in any decent fashion. We have a few winners, but these are winners for we have no options. In India they say two sayings that Indian friends who visit NYC always use for this food we call Indian food in the US. 1) Bandar kyaa jaane adrak ka swaad 2) Andho mein kaana raja The first loosely translates as: how would a monkey understand the subtlety and flavor of ginger. The second translates as: amongst the visually impaired (blind) the person with one eye is emperor. These are bad stereotypical generalizations, but this is how most Indians describe foods they eat in the US. I am like you hoping that restaurant owners can elevate their thinking and realize that there is a pool of chefs that exist in India and also in the US, these are chefs that care to share a real cuisine with people that is contemporary and yet classic. Not just fluff and marketing trivia, but steeped in tradition and also experimentation... and these chefs need homes where they can continue to create and share and amaze. But it has not happened yet. Look at the cooking section under Rose Petals... you will find a great example of what a chef with respect for cuisine, cultures and traditions can create when respecting each of those elements that must interact successfully to make any cuisine both palatable and of the moment. You will find a small hint of what the coming decades will witness. I only hope that I am still able to enjoy the tastes and wonders of cuisine when that happens. And also that these chefs are still practicing this wonderful art of theirs as they do so now. We will always have great craftsmen, unfortunately, we have few people in our midst that today can sift through the trivial and enjoy that which is grounded in beauty of many kinds. The trivial seems to obsess us for what is temporary and able to fit some notion of being a "best something" while the real gets lost in that hype of the trivial.

I post again what I wrote in reference to Madhur, Julie and myself. I never called them chefs or cooks. Please read again to see the point I made.

Chefette, I bake a lot. Maybe a few times every week. But I have never made an Opera cake. Actually for that matter, I have never made any layer cake. Are such cakes very difficult to prepare? Tedious? Both? Would it be possible for home chefs to make these without feeling overwhelmed?

It is utterly lovely. maggie It is lovely. ANd what a great picture too. How well composes. And the roses are so beautiful. The shadows between the rose petals just go so beautifully with the layers of the cake. A grand idea. Ada would have been too lucky to have had it on their menu and not prepared enough to serve it with circumspect aura. I am sure when you find a home worthy of its inclusion, this cake will charm many. Even through the screen it moves me. How kind of you to have taken the time to share a picture. Thanks!

And where have I doubted you Mr. Majumdar? I have only asked if you have other desserts that you like apart from Bengali ones.

Chefette, Thanks for sharing the recipe and the pics. It seems lovely and I am sure tastes very good too. What restaurant menu did you do this for?

Your potato ad cauliflower dish sounds wonderful. Maybe you can post us a recipe. You will be surprised to know that many Indians would love to eat exactly what you liked...

How beautifully you wrote that!

Who would not like aloo parathas? They were never meant to be restaurant fare. Homestyle ALoo Parathas are as good as life gets. When made by grandmothers and mothers, nothing can come close to them in providing a hungry body or even a sated appetite hunger and satisfaction. Vivin made a beautiful reference to Punjabis and their parathas. No one can make them better.

They were greasy for they were not rotis. Or perhaps they were and were made greasy to keep them fresh longer. Each family in India has their own definition of what a roti and chapati are. They are the most basic breads made at homes. This evening my sisters mother-in-law who is visiting from India made us both for dinner. Rotis are traditionally bigger and thicker and more rustic. Chapatis are thinner and mostly small in Northern India. In our home Chapatis are also called Phulkas since each chapati is rolled so delicately and perfectly that they swell up like balls. These are the most addictive kind of bread I know. Nothing can brighten up my face better than these made fresh.

recipes for fattoush and baked Kibbe please!

Will life get boring hereafter?

And I can certainly imagine French chefs doing some marvelous things with these preserves. The dessert Cabralles described sounded amazing.

What might you think those from the east that have had these preserves for just as long.. at least a thousand plus years... what French sophistry had they mastered? Maybe the science they knew, we still do not... Just wonder. For the preserves you get in Indian stores, Sahadi and several Middle Eastern markets around the world never have that problem. But I have never tried making rose preserve in the US. IN India I made it as a teenager. The sun was the secret scientific ingredient in the recipe. And many days of full dry heat did the magical trick. And it also kept the rose preserve very simple, natural and very close to the actual flavor of the petals. ths sugar seemed like it trapped the flavors.

I have been vegetarian since birth. Very seldom I eat all kinds of meats and fish.. but never in NYC for the most part. I never think of Tofu or any other foods as a meat substitute. They are simply foods I love. I find that who gimmick quiet funny.. if I craved meat, I would eat the real thing.

Eric Asimov is such a breath of fresh air.

How could one speak of reviewers and not think of Gael Green? It would be blasphemy and wrong! She is amazing.. she makes food as sensuous as it is to those that really love it in every subtle way.

Chonk, Tadka, Baghaar are all words for tempered oils. Perfumed ghee or oil that is poured on daals and even some raitas and vegetables and meats to finish a dish.

While we may think we have learned nothing from our parents, it is not easy to have lived with them and not been even just remotely influenced by our surroundings. If one honestly feels one has learnt nothing from ones parents, that person is a unique social phenomenon. Maybe one that needs to be cloned. For that person that does not assimilate and learn from their surroundings, poses new hope for a world that has such great anger and misery still in its midst for the memories even generations after a certain period of history has happened. Maybe that person is better than the rest of the human species. A great mind that is uniquely very different from all others. For that one mind is truly independent. But for the most part, we all learn a lot from our parents, our neighbors, friends, peer, teacher, friends, schools, spouses and every other person that we ever meet. While we may never take any formal training from any particular person, the imprint of every occurrence of our lives is left in us. Often coming out when we least expect it. Just in the same way, we too can make food by simply association of culture and history. My sister was never the kind of foodie I was even at the age of 6. But she too has memories that make her a far greater cook even at her worst than most foreign students studying and cooking Indian food. She has in her brain reflections of conversations; images that have been in her head from even just having entered the kitchen every day, several times a day even to just get a drink of water. But in those few seconds, her mind picked images of chefs grinding, roasting, cleaning and separating spices and or vegetables and meats. These memories will come alive like conversations and other bits of history when we least expect them. While I make several non-Indian dishes better than what many restaurants serve of these same dishes, I have never felt comfortable thinking I can create these better than those that make the same dish with the added benefit of some association with it. The subtle ways in which Steven Klc or Wignding could manipulate simple pastries would never even cross my sensibilities. And similarly, the ways in which I can manipulate even the worst stocked pantries to create an Authentic Indian meal, will even at its worst be far superior to any Indian food any non-Indian could create for me from the same ingredients. For my longer association and richer cultural association will present my mind with far greater subtle ways in which I can achieve a result a non-Indian could never even dream of.

Tabla is not adapting at all. Tabla is the beginning of a new food trend that could share with diners a new cuisine that is very much one that in a few years or a decade, will be given a weighty title that makes it a winning classic of its times and history. There is little Indian about it other than the ethnicity of its chef. In fact, when they firs opened, those that bashed it did so only for that reason. Now, with the bread bar, they have simply planted recipes from India into their repertoire in that section that are Indian and boldly so. There are some recipes that adjust and adapt, but what inspired some reviewers to go review the Bread Bar was the bold and seemingly transparent Indian authentic flavors to its food. I have been a champion of Tabla and will always remain so. But Tabla is not Indian in my book. Tabla speaks of a world that will slowly need many other such restaurants serving food that evokes of a time where the world sees shrinking and fuzzy boundaries. Table is still an infant in what it will become if it can last and evolve. Tabla is the next logical step for fusion foods. While Indian food can learn little from Tabla, it is my hope that Indian restaurant owners can learn from Tabla that it is possible to give great service, in a charming setting, at a decent price-point and still serve something Indian. Table excites me not for its food, but for what it presents us as an opportunity. It would be silly to copy Tabla or give it much credit just yet, or credit more than what it has received already. Tabla is what the future needs more of. But Tabla is hardly anything Indian food needs to be. Indian food in the US or other foreign lands needs to find a setting where it can survive, breathe and co-habitate without seeming lost and foreign. Tabla in some small ways makes that reality seem plausible. Now, we need restaurateurs from India that can have some vision and think outside of the box.