EatNopales

Thin slice of beef, breaded and panfried. Wienerschnitzel, basically, although it's beef instead of veal. Latin America got it through Italy instead of Austria so cotoletta a la Milanesa (I have no idea how to spell that) became milanesa. Yup. In addition in Mexico other forms of "traditional" Milanesa include Chicken Breast, Fish Fillet, flattened Shrimp, as well as (maybe more recently)... vegetable based Milanesas with Cauliflower & Zucchini being the more common ones I have seen cooked at home. As to how vegetable Milanesas came about the story I heard from my mom is.. there is a more traditional dish Coliflor Capeada that has been prepared for centuries.. big hunks of cauliflower are simmered until somewhat tender then battered, then fried, then simmered in a tomatoe sauce... its a lot of work... and in the 70's cooking shows & recipe magazines focused on easier cooking popularized it as a shortcut to Capeados... so it has grown by extension any vegetable you can maneuver into a flat, wide "fillet" can be "milanesed"

Someone needs to start a drinks topic on this one! You must be thinking of someone else, I love cilantro. I'll admit that I didn't always, but that was in a galaxy long ago and far, far away. All these pickling, brining suggestions sound really good. First, though I think I'm going to try some of these salsas and sauces. And I'm going to be on the lookout for some good whole trout, I'd love to try EatNopales' suggestion for Tlapiques--it being corn season it's easy to have fresh corn husks left over from cooking corn (I know you said corn leaves, EatNopales, but hopefully the fresh husks will work, I'm unlikely to get my hands on the leaves). Linda I was sloppy on the husks / leaves distinction... I meant husks... fresh or dried... both are used traditionally, both work well. Incidentally, last night I made Escabeche with green tomatoes (our tomato plants are getting close to delivering a killer bounty... might have to make some Amaranth crusted Green Tomato "Milanesas" soon... before the ripes overwhelm us)

Next time try preparing it with cilantro instead of parsley (at least that is the "authentic" way in which I frequently ate it growing up in Mexico City. --dmg Thanks for the tip! How we make the rice depends on what green herbs we have on hand - sometimes cilantro, sometimes parsley, other times Mexican oregano. Tonight we made a dirtier version with cilantro and frijoles negros. FYI... in Oaxaca parsley is more common than cilantro in most applications including Arroz Verde. In Veracruz, its Hoja Santa & Mint that are the stars, In Jalisco it is fresh thyme, marjoram & oregano, In Puebla it is papaloquelite etc., etc., I wouldn't worry to much about it... no one in Mexico agrees on what is the exact, right combination of herbs.

Larousse de la Cocina Mexicana has recipes for Tarta de Tomatillo Don't forget Mole Verde, Tomatillo "Ceviche", Pickled Tomatillos, Ancho Chiles stuffed with Tomatillos in Piloncillo Escabeche, Tlapiques (Whole Fish such as trout stuffed with sliced tomatillos, onions & chiles wrapped in corn leaves and cooked on the grill or comal) etc.,

The Le Clezio book sounds very interesting... taking into account the fact that first agriculture in Mesoamerica lagged Turkey by several thousand years I have no doubt that the Aztecs were just coming into an era of exponential technological growth... within a century the Aztecs would have been trading extensively with the Inca & that would have spurred the same type of technological growth we see in Eurasia after the establishment of the Spice Route.

With regards to Sahagun... the definitive in English, I believe, is the Arthur J.O. Andersen series... unfortunately its 13 seperate books each going for about $50 at Amazon.com and they don't even have all 13... rich libraries (Los Angeles County, UC, Cal State etc.,) have all the volumes.

One more point... and I think I have mentioned it on this forum below... it really irkes when people repeat the whole folk tale about how Chilaquiles means shredded old sombreros & where invented in colonial times.. when there is ample evidence that Pre-Hispanic markets sold broken, crumbled old tortillas... and that the word is phonetically so close to the Chontal word Chilakil (Chile & Egg).. and you also have Spanish description of caseroles with eggs, chile sauce & tortillas etc., /crabby rant

Of course Esteban... that is why I linked to Sahagun's description about tortillas been served with Turkey Eggs etc., at the Tenochtitlan market. One of the Spanish soldiers has an even better quote but I can't find it... it went something like "and they filled their tortillas with eggs & seeds and their juice and other very nutritive things"... the translations from 16th Century Spanish dialects seem quite awkward but I think that one phrase was a dead ringer for Papadzules in some form.

Snippet from friar Bernardino de Sahagun's 1529 description of the Tenochtitlan (Mexico City) market taken from Sophie Coe's "America's First Cuisines" "He sells tortillas with turkey eggs, tortillas made with honey, pressed ones, glove-shaped tortillas, plain tortillas, assorted ones, braised ones, sweet tortillas, amaranth seed tortillas, squash tortillas, green maize tortillas, brick-shaped tortillas, tuna cactus tortillas; broken, crumbled, old tortillas; cold tortillas, toasted ones, dried tortillas, stinking tortillas." http://www.foodtimeline.org/foodmaya.html Papadzules (last night's dinner) - Tortilla bathe in Pumpkin Seed-Epazote sauce, stuffed with hardboiled eggs with a side of roasted squash & Chiltomate sauce... is a very pre-hispanic dish.. perhaps the technique has changed a bit for modernity... but it is clear from friar Bernardino de Sahugun's 1529 description of the grand market in Tenochtitlan that all the components where there.. "braised tortillas", pumpkin seed sauces, chiltomate, squash tortillas etc., I didn't use a recipe it is really simple... roast Pumpkin Seeds in a single layer, cookie sheet at 400F check every 5 minutes, when the seeds plump up a few have browned they are ready... put them in a blender in give it a blend adding water that was brewed with Epazote leaves (10 leaves to every cup of water) & salt to keep the blades from sticking. The end result should be about as thick as Tahini. To get the smoothest sauce possible... simmer it for an hour or so... it will get ugly & broken up... don't worry... blend it again adding masa or masa harina to emulsify the sauce (no need to cook it afterwords like you would with wheat based flour)... or you can strain the sauce... return the grainy part to the blender... adding the smooth part a little at a time. Chiltomate... boil scored tomatoes until they begin to release their skin, let them cool a bit at room temp, & peel them under cook running water if needed.... mash them with salt & a chile (habanero or manzano) that has been macerated in a solution of half water, half lime juice & salt.

To make my point clearer... Mexicans rarely use Cumin to flavor Picadillo (Ground, Minced or Chopped Meat sautee) or Grilled Steaks. If you do an Advanced Google search of the term "picadillo receta" only in sites that are .mx domain the overwhelming majority of recipes do not have Cumin (or much spices in them at all). Of course if you compile recipes for Birria you will of course find the Cumin is an important flavoring... but in general Mexico's cooking uses Spices alot more judiciously than in Mexican-American cooking... even traditional dishes that feature Allspice or Black Pepper as prominent flavoring such as the Pebres of the Yucatan... the Mexican approach is to use whole spices, that leach a gentle version of the flavor in a sauce or broth - then removed - as oppossed to adding ground spices directly into the ingredients. That approach towards spices is symptomatic of a general approach in Mexico of "tempering" and is one of the main reasons why cooks & restaurants in Mexico consistently put out dishes that are much more balanced & sophisticated than their counterparts north of the border.

As Jaymes pointed out Nachos were invented on the border by Ignacio "Nacho" Anaya... and they are quite different to what has been popularized north of the border. While, nobody cooks nachos at home in Mexico, and the vast majority of Mexicans have never seen or tasted Nachos... they are not completely non-existent even in the heart of Mexico (where they are known as Danchos). Several chains that market strictly to teeny boppers & teenagers such as Danchos & Danny-yo, think of them as Mexican Frostee Freeze's, serve them to acclaim with the kids along with frozen yogurts, escamochas etc., In those case the Danchos are warm chips, a cheese sauce made of Chihuahua (Menonita) cheese & topped with vegetables en escabeche (typically carrots, onions, jalapenos). As far as I know, I have never seen or heard of Beef Nachos in Mexico. Now are you referring to the concession type Nachos that have ground beef with "taco seasoning" on them... or the Cal-Mex style nachos with grilled / griddled chuck steak "Carne Asada", guacamole, sour cream etc.,? Finally.... Cumin has a much greater presence in New Mexican cooking than in Mexican cooking. As some of you might know, Northern Mexico was largely settled by Crypto-Jews... Spanish Jews who converted to Catholicism after the expulsion of the Moors... they came to New Spain where they thought might be free to practice thinly veiled Judaism but during the late 1500s they left Central Mexico to escape persecution and ended up settling Nuevo Leon, parts of Texas & what is now New Mexico... it is their more Middle Eastern / Med culinary traditions (Flour tortilla as a form of pita, spit roasted kid goat & heavy use of Cumin) that have colored the perception of what Mexican cuisine is in the U.S. Cumin is used in Mexico but typically as a back ground flavor almost never to the prominence it takes in the U.S. Southwest

Alright... I am seriously considering buying this book... and I am not even the baker of the house!

Sounds good.. unnatural combination of differing ecosystems.. but it sure sounds delicious.

Avocado with toasted Avocado Leaves, Roasted Garlic, Tomato Jam

Hola.. with regards to Avocado ice cream... this has traditionally been made with Criollo variety instead of Hass (Criollo is an ancestor of the Hass avocado).. the Criollos often have an anisey aroma just like their leaves... the last time I made Avocado ice cream (surprisingly a big hit with the office workers in Hawaii).. I added anise seed to good results. Also, I should note that roasted garlic ice cream is relatively popular throughout Central Mexico... Mexican ice cream philosophy is traditionally to not mix a lot of different flavors within an ice cream... but instead to scoop various mono-flavored ice creams in the same cup... it is perfectly "normally" to get a scoop of Avocado, a scoop of Garlic & a scoop of Elote in a single cup.. and then mix to your hearts desire... one of my "inventions" is to make an Avocado / Roasted Garlic / Avocado Leaf base then stir in Tomato Jam & Jalapeno Jelly prior to setting... Guacamole Ice Cream... it makes a nice appetizer or palette cleanser.

On a tangent... I thought some of you might enjoy this:

A friend of mine sent me this video... apparently a bunch of Peruvian yuppies went to Peru, Nebraska to teach the locals how to be proper Perurivans. Food & Cooking is a central theme in the video.. and some scenes intimate locals adopting Peruvian influences etc., First, I thought some of you might flat out enjoy it... it is pretty funny. Second, any of you familiar with the town of Peru.. did you hear about this, how did it really go down, and are there any lasting culinary influences etc.,?

That is the primary reason why I initially went with Chowhound... but also the reason I evenutally hovered to EG hoping for a higher level of discussion. Unfortunately, most stuff on EG is pretty light weight, and discussions can end so abruptly.

I think you have a perfectly legit Mole de Olla, using ingredients you have on hand.. very similar to the soup my mom regularly makes.. she normally includes frozen broccoli & cauliflower as well... and favors chicken over turkey.. other than that very similar.

That's sort of the point I was trying to make - that those of us who have _____ (fill in the blank) are disconnected from those of us who have not. It's easy for me, someone who doesn't stress eat (and that may be because the things that stress me are, to quote my boyfriend, "first world problems"), sit around proposing solutions and discussion "food policy" like it's going to make a damn bit of difference. You sort of pointed out an extreme reason - that if we are, as a country, decaying and becoming more soulless (not in a religious sense, I just don't know what other word to use), that does influence our eating habits, probably much more than "food policy" ever will. Your take on this is very dark. I believe that people have individual power to change their mindsets and circumstances. I just don't believe that other people can make them do so, if they can't find it in themselves. And thus I find discussions of "food policy" among foodies to be a kind of intellectual masturbation some times. I think that is a perfect analogy... and I am an atheist myself. I think the culture is morally bankrupt & empty.. while I myself am not religious, and quite happy to not be... I still recognize that the U.S. once had a strong, generally positive & well adapted / successful culture (even if it had its own baggage & short comings).. but it had a system of beliefs & mythology that was cohesive with millenarian roots.. but now there is apathy & aimlessness... the black & white, religiously rooted life has been fully replaced with something meaningful & soulful.. so people are filling the void with consumerism, facile hedonism of all types including food. There are certainly tangible, policy attributed causes... supply & demand says ceteris paribus if you use subsidies to make processed crap comparably cheaper than whole food.. well you are going to sell comparatively more processed crap, the inherent Post WWII rebound effect was always going to end up rolling back much of the Middle Class gains in Standards of Living that occurred in the 1950s when America had no industrial competitors... but also the way globalization has been structured is bound to create more winners & losers, with greater inequality between winners & losers than was the norm in Pre-Globalization society. OTOH culture can be used as an effective barrier against economic laws.. but unfortunately the culture piece is also going the opposite direction. The country needs something... I hope that something doesn't have to be the black & white religiosity & vindictiveness towards the Other of the past.. but I think that might even be an improvement over the road the society is going down.

Is the issue really about education? Most poor people around the world are a lot fitter than the typical upper middle class American... and make better food choices, even when they have fattening alternatives etc., Poor people around the world are not necessarily more book educated than poor Americans.. but there are certainly some socio cultural factors at play. This may seem unrelated but I hope people can meditate on this factoid for a second: More Americans commit suicide (in absolute & per capita terms).. then the number of Mexicans are killed every year Think about that an American is more likely to comit suicide than someone in Mexico (with the much reported Drug Cartel wars included) being murdered There are is something seriously wrong in the culture.. the break down of community, spread of maladaptive cultural norms (which is getting worse & worse).. the United States is dying a slow death and few people seem to want acknowledge or address it. This is not about whether someone knows Brocoli is good for them & how to cook it.. it is ALOT about the current system's carrot & sticks (subsidies etc.,) and growing economic inequality... but it is also ALOT about large swaths of the country losing hope, losing opportunity, losing self awareness... being too low on the Maslow level. There are plenty of fat people.. the U.S. is the most obese nation in history and the myth that it is poor urban people is just about not admitting reality. My boss is a multi millionaire and is 75 pounds overweight.. not because of lack of education, choice or opportunity... because he is too stressed & unaware to deal with his stress other than comforting with crap food. This stress-comfort eating sindrome is common throughout all economic levels in the society. The proto-typical skinny white woman eating salads & walking on a tread mill looking onto 5th Avenue is not skinny because she has more knowledge about what to eat (this sub-group often has its own serious nutritional/health issues).. it is because she has goals, opportunity & hope.. 3 things which are becoming increasingly scarce across the country.

You make great points & have invaluable on the ground experience. Regarding your Apartment sized tiller... impressive machine.. but I must ask will the industrial infrastructure even exist in a high energy cost world where governments have a hard time keeping up roads. You are lucky to be located near rivers which may once again become crucial modes of transport, we might even say trains come back... but factor climate instability and the flooding we are seeing now... and maybe river transport will not be as cheap as it appears now. The Canadian Baker made some great points about how Andean farmers can produce inexpensive, local produce... sharing overhead etc., that will become more & more true in the U.S. as well. In general, when it comes to food & widget production, we have become a capital (machine) intensive society vs. a labor (people) intensive society.. which of course is what industrialization is.. but industrialization needs cheap energy, cheap raw materials & subsidized infrastructure to make it economically feasible. In the U.S. we drink the Kool Aid of the free market economy... Andean farmers are the free market economy... in the brave new world... free market economies of the Andean & remote, less governed regions will become more the norm than the big government industrial welfare states of the 20th Century... in that environment farming will inevitably become less industrial more communal. Our house of cards is a minefield of subsidies & hidden costs (not born by the economic activities that produce them)... it is unsustainable, it will catch up to us... and the future will inevitably look different.

In my area farmers don't have the choice to grow much other than feed stock. The season is too short and the beginning is very wet. A small percentage could be converted, but take the converse argument. How would Iowans get fruit if it were not for imports. We can grow apples, cherries, pears and a few others, but even fruits like pears are being left on the trees in California due to labor costs not shipping costs. Please don't take me wrong, We basically have a very nice CSA sized small farm, but we don't market our products. We give it away to other farmers in the area. We actually grow sweet corn for corn farmers. They in turn make sure we have all the pork, beef, chicken and compost we could ever want. Corn always gets the label of evil since it is overused in our food chain. There will most likely be a bubble in the corn land because of 2010 profits being so high. They are paying ridiculous prices for acreage now as the reinvest their money. I have nothing against corn... my people were made of corn However, and since you are there & in the business and know what is going on... can you tell me what Corn commodity prices would be without any government subsidies & without the ridiculously cheap energy costs we have come to be dependent on? Probably not as cheap as they have been right? What will happen to Food Processors when they know for sure that Corn & Corn based by products (High Fructose Corn Syrup) are consistently more expensive than they are today. They either find substitutes, raise prices or a combination of both, correct? Now what will happen to consumer decisions once the price of all that processed junk that makes up the bulk of a supermarket (much of it refrigerated or frozen) goes up in price... will not more closely grown, less processed foods gain somewhat of a comparative advantage? Look at the challenges we are likely going to face in the next 40 years: 1) Increased Petrochemical Costs as the BRICs industrialize & oil production starts declining / peaks (the price of gasoline, chemicals, fertilizers, food transportation, refrigeration, air conditioning, heating etc., all rise) 2) Stagnant Wages for 90 to 97.5% of Americans dampens Real Estate & consequently Land values and with it mortage backed Consumer Credit.. also shrinks the Tax base Take just these factors together and we will likely see the following things happen: 1) Ratio of Sq. Ft Living Space per Person will drop (the relative cost of building materials, appliances, household energy will became a bigger share of our paycheck which itself will shrink on an Inflation Adjusted basis) 2) As tax revenue diminish / stagnate.. Government spends less money on Ag Subsidies, Military bases (which tend to subsidize remote areas), and Paved Roads (we are already seeing paved roads in the Rust Belt reverting back to dirt roads because the government can't maintain them) 3) As people huddle into less household space, and the network of paved roads shrinks.. land on the urban fringes & rural areas will become cheaper... plausibly cheap enough to encourage alot more farming. 4) Processed food traveling long distances as going to become comparatively more expensive while locally grown, minimally processed food will become less expense. I imagine that a reasonably bright future amidst all these conditions will involve lots of solar energy & self-reinforcing farming systems that require minimal petrochemical inputs... already we are seeing this in Mexico. Politicians are going to thump their chest about immigration slowing down.. but those of us who are keeping tabs on the southern neighbor can't help noticing that the high grain prices over the last 3 years are encouraging people to get back on the farms.. and there is a resurgence of Milpa vs. Green Revolution type of farming, and some of these farmers are starting to invest in solar panels (in Oaxaca there is a solar powered taqueria of all things) The example couldn't be more poignant... Mexico is the birthplace of the Milpa.. it triumphed for 6,000 years then Mexico was the birthplace of The "Green" Revolution (at least in large scale).. beating back the traditional system built on a house of cards that included subsidized petro chemicals & fuel from the very beginning... but now that were just starting to see a new era transformed by high fuel prices & environmental damage we are already seeing signs of the old system coming back.

$12BB in the 2010 Federal Budget for Corn subsidies is a lot money and a significant portion of the total price of Corn.. as you mention we are currently having very high commodities prices particularly Corn and the high prices are phasing out some of the price floor based subsidy payments... doesn't that fortify my argument that the cheap midwestern Corn bonanza for processed foods & livestock food is at risk? Will not the TOUGH economics of the farming business force people to different alternatives. Again the basis of my argument is that $3 bushel corn, as heavily enabled by government subsidies, cheap energy & hidden environmental costs is unsustainable and when the bubble blows (it certainly will) the food system is going to be unrecognizable to our generation.. but will be very recognizable the pre-industrial cultures.

According to the same UC Davis... as of 2008 only 1/3 of eggs sold in its shell in California come from out of state... California has become a net importer of egg products because of Egg Beaters & similar consumer packaged goods... I think that is a different animal than pure economics of shipping eggs 2,000 miles etc., http://aic.ucdavis.edu/publications/eggs/executivesummaryeggs.pdf In any case... California produce massive amounts of soybean, rice as well as nut & seed that could be used to make livestock feed (although the rice is heavily subsidized and doesn't help my case that much)... if the economics of factory farms & food production changes due to the like surge in energy prices... California could become very competitive in the livestock business... particularly because, although California is an Agricultural behemoth, lots of California produce is exported to wealthier destinations who can afford to pay more for prime quality produce namely Japan... the change in energy economics would affect Japanese consumers & California produce export prices... with the opportunity cost of domestic production vs. export to Japan out of the way there is no reason California couldn't be competitive with Iowa in the egg business. Times a changing... this not about buying into Pollen's world view or anything ideological.. the food system will change out of necessity.