Baggy

I find that I have to work hard to stretch the base really thin so I get a nice crispy result. I also pre-cook all the ingredients, especially things like mushrooms and seafood which give off so much water, and that seems to make a big difference to the result. If I’m using mozzarella, I tend to use it aged as the cheese seems to contract on maturing, giving off some of the water that otherwise goes to spoil the crispiness of the crust. Aged mozzarella also has a much better tangy taste. How long is usual to let the pie crust rest before putting on the toppings? Having seen the pro’s, they seem to make up the topping immediately after stretching the base and get a great crust. For me, I have to wait 20-30 minutes before the rim gets a little puffy and I put it in the oven. This gives me a much more raised edges and gives it both lightness and more crispiness.

Hi slkinsey, think I’m on the same wavelength as you. It has been difficult to get much of a choice of inexpensive vacuum machines in the UK and I use a FoodSaver Compact II (not sure if the models are named the same way in the States). I’ve used it for almost 2 years and it gets increasingly difficult to get the vacuum and seal the bag without some manipulation. I have some of the rigid containers and they work perfectly for marinating under vacuum, but are too thick for using in the water bath as they insulate too well. I always pack the fish/steak so there is no overlap, and have been working on a formula for calculating the length of time required to get stuff up to the required internal temperature. Previously I have had to make some assumptions – like eye-balling a steak and saying ‘yup, that looks medium rare’ etc, etc. But, after a lot of heart (and wallet) searching, I just purchased a special sous vide probe thermometer, so I can now do the experiments more precisely. Like you, I normally I freeze the liquid part (providing I have planned things in advance), and keep basics like stock in the freezer ready for when inspiration strikes. But thanks for the reminder about olive oil. Now you jogged my memory, freezing point is around 0C/32F so it should work perfectly. I’ll put an ice tray in the freezer tonight. I’d love to find a used Multivac and some more space in my kitchen. I have my scouts out looking for machines but, like trying to get a second hand Pacojet, its not been a fruitful search so far. But if you know any chefs with a spare 220v machine, I would love to hear about it!

When… You transfer all the best of the tested foods from Heston Blumenthal’s In Search of Perfection to your PDA and hope that you can find the same brand of handmade pasta extruded through brass dies when out shopping so that I can post it for all my other foodie friends who live in London.

Thanks for the link.

I don’t know if this will help but I’ve come across (but not used) methylcellulose. Unlike most gels that liquefy when heated, it’s a gel that is solid when hot and liquid when cold. Again from memory it is used to get the liquid centres in chocolates – which sound pretty much similar to what you’re trying to do. With gels set with calcium chloride, do you have a problem with them setting too firm as I understand it’s not possible to control/stop the reaction with the gelling agent once its started?

Nice to see an active and clean starter. How much do you add to one of your typical loaves? Also it was great to see the bannetons getting in the photo. Do you have problems finding them?

I seem to get through a lot of wooden spoon. Most often the bowl part breaks off, usually when I’m tapping the side a basin to get rid of some of the stuff stuck to the spoon. Maybe I shouldn’t put wooden spoons in the dishwasher. One thing that I’ve noticed is that every time we go to stay at a self-catering rental, there are some items that are never in the kitchen. It really doesn’t matter if it’s a visit to some pretty place in the UK (anywhere where there are trees and open spaces), France, the US… 1. A wooden spoon. Actually, I don’t mind buying these. They’re not expensive and always slightly different shapes and lengths. The best one I picked up was in Arizona - a heavy spoon made of beech with a quite round bowl. It was made in France. 2. A bread knife. Apparently they just aren’t used anymore.

I just saw the short ‘humorous’ review of the new Sound of the Sea dish in Caterer magazine this week (p14). Can anyone give us the skinny on what’s in it and how it’s presented? Sounds like a novel approach.

Good beef is hard to find! 17lbs is a big bit of beef - how many ribs is this? And, please do me a favour, send me its measurements so I can plug it into my formula. Fantastic…

Just catching up here: 1) I have frozen starter for more than a year and it still comes to life. I guess it is probably more active if it’s used within a month or two, but frankly the starting activity on defrosting isn’t a big issue when it grows and gets back to life within a few days. 2) King Arthur AP works fine for bread without needing any additional gluten. In my experience, other brands like Gold Medal are not so good for bread. My experience with US flour is limited so maybe there are other, easily available brands that can work?

In my view, with bread making you have to follow the approach that you feel is natural. It looks like starters are different depending as much on location, flour, temperature and love as much as any technique. Methods of using starters in the US are a million miles away from the traditional methods used in Europe. French sourdough breads are NOT sour – they taste pretty much like yeast-made bread and they are made with a 60-65% hydration. The reason is that the starter is built up in several stages so that the sour taste produced by some of the bacteria is diluted and the activity of the natural yeasts is promoted. Sourdoughs in Germany (mainly rye breads) are deliberately sour and use high temperatures to maximise the activity of the yeast and bacteria. Why? Because rye breads don’t capture the gas so well and extra push is required to get a loaf that isn’t leaden. But in the US, sourdoughs are often used to add flavour to breads and this really develops a character that is special, especially when compared with commonly available breads. Matching breads with other dishes and foods is all part of the cultural heritage. Unfortunately, even the ‘rules’ for using a starter are not well defined and to get that perfect loaf needs a ton of luck or repetition without variation in any of the steps or the external factors, like temperature. For me, this is not something that I have been able to achieve in a home environment. It’s my view that the best approach is, having got an active starter and a method that gives a half-way decent result, just try changing one thing at a time. Add slightly more or less starter, or perhaps, increase the hydration. Change the place you store the starter or the temperature of the water added to make up the dough. Like getting a starter going (and I know of at least 20 different recommended approaches), bread making is such a fickle thing that I’m sure everyone will offer experience and advice. Like keeping a diary, I watch and record my bread making. What mix of ingredients; the method, temperatures and timings; and especially what worked and what failed. Every change has meaning, and I have seen over time that my understanding has grown. Each time I see something new I look for answers and I think you have here a great resource to spread your own experience and tap in to some solid and practical views. I wondered if anyone has experience of the correct hydration to use with different flours? I’ve been looking at flours in the US which seem to work best at around 68%, whereas the figure for typical UK flours is 65% and 62% for French flours without added ascorbic acid. Second question is how does hydration change when using a sourdough rather than a direct, yeast based method?

Fabulous – I’m not an engineer and I really appreciate you simplifying (even further) the whole process to energy transfer. If I understood your figure of 17 (the units came out strange on my screen), that’s probably the length. For my approach, I have been using the typical breadth of the roast. I assumed that the heat gradient would be steepest at the narrowest point and, therefore, this is the rate determining factor in deciding when it was cooked to perfection. But to follow your argument, I’m not sure how I can measure/predict total heat transfer into the roast? I have a reasonably stable oven, oven thermometer and probe thermometer and a micrometer to measure dimensions. Do I need anything else?

Agreed – problem is I don’t ‘trust’ plastic bags (sealable or not) to keep in the oil without leaking or splitting (Ziplock bags are hard to find in England) and I don’t have a chamber vacuum packer so I can use liquids without any problems. I do use a smaller 1/3rd gastronorm and after adding a couple of fillets which are only an inch deep, I only use around 400 ml of oil. At GBP 3.00 per litre (US$ 6) for EVOO, the oil costs a lot less than a couple of good quality fish fillets and is definitely worth the expense.

I’m not sure if I can explain the observation fully. I have been trying for a long time to find ways of getting large holes to form in bread in a predictable way. There’s a long list of things, but even with yeast there is a very clear increase in hole size as I reduce yeast levels. This is proofing to the same volume before baking. Another factor working in favour of larger holes is under-proofing which, I think, allows the steam to blow up the loaf (oven spring) without overstretching the dough. With under-proofing the holes go translucent. As spritzing the crust gives a gloss, I assume that this is because the steam gelatinises the starch. But the overall impact seems to be different from natural starters, where the whole loaf takes on a translucent sheen (not just the walls of the holes). This is might be due to the starch being more hydrated and so cooks down to a glue (and gives the loaf longer shelf life). So I’m guessing that a loaf made with an active starter is going to have smaller holes and look more like a yeast-made loaf. What other things have you tried (maybe we should start a ‘large hole’ topic)?

You might also take a look at whether the second batch of food browns faster/better than the first. My first batch, even with leaving the stove on for a while, never seems to brown up as successfully as following batches.

I wish I found this out myself, but the pre-treatment method is available on the following link (article NFC 70): http://www.relayresearch.ie/public/p_popul...ts.asp?type=NFC The authors attribute the effect to activation of pectin methylesterase (page 9). I tried the method with a whole range of foods, and in my tests most cabbage-family vegetables were noticeably improved. I couldn’t tell the difference with things like carrots or thin leafed veg. When I mentioned ‘direct contact’ I meant was that the food is in contact with the water or oil and not packed sous vide. I generally put the items with water/oil in a gastronorm pan just so I don’t have to clean out the water bath. It does take a little longer to heat up, but generally that’s not a problem with a bit of planning.

As a home cook with a very smart (digital) water bath from Clifton in Weston-super-Mare (not stirred), which I love dearly, and a so-so FoodSaver vacuum machine, I find I’m using sous vide typically 2-3x per week. Here’s a list of stuff that I do on a fairly regular basis: VACUUM PACKED Steak (52C) Fish (42C) Beef rib roast (52C) DIRECT CONTACT (IN A GASTRONORM PAN) Fish in olive oil (42C) Pre-treat broccoli (52C) Pre-treat Savoy cabbage (52C) IN A CONTAINER Tempering chocolate (31C) Scrambled egg (72C) Beef stew (filling for steak pie) (72C) TO KEEP ITEMS WARM Sauces (60C) Mashed potato (70C) Asparagus (60C) VACUUM PACKING, BUT NO WATER BATH Marinate chicken Marinate prawns Of all these things, the one that makes the biggest difference is pre-treating broccoli spears. I put them in the water bath at 52C for about 10 minutes, then wash them in cold water, before boiling or sautéing. The pre-treatment makes them all crunch and takes away some of the cabbage smell. No soggy broccoli, ever.

Hey! Hummingbirdkiss – that look’s a great loaf. From the small hole size, I bet you’ve got a really active starter. Jeniac42 has a good idea – depending how much water you were adding already you can try increasing it, provided it’s not too difficult to handle the dough. You could also try reducing the amount of starter you use and that would give you bigger holes. Comment on saving starters – you really can just put some in the freezer!!! I used to cool mine overnight in the fridge in a plastic container. Then freeze and do the reverse on unfreezing. I used to give it 24 hours in the fridge to melt it before feeding.

markk - I’m still in the stage of collecting data, but looking at budrichard’s commentary, I think he’s on the button for this one. Assuming the typical thickness of a prime rib is just over 3” then the temperature overshoot is around 25F, although I have been using a slightly higher oven temperature of 390F (200C). This means that to get a medium rare interior (around 125F), internal temperature would be 100F. I can add two key points. First, resting time should be around 25-30 minutes to give the roast time to get up to temperature. Second, the actual temperature overshoot is VERY dependent on the thickness of the meat. This second point is critical, as the overshoot for a 3.5” thick roast is 35F, compared to around 25C for a 3” roast. This is around 70% predictable, so better than the weather forecast (where the accuracy no better than 60%). As an aside and whilst all this complication can seem like a step too far, budrichard, I heard that Heston Blumenthal is making a pretty good living out of doing this sort of stuff. Besides there is a very practical reason. With low temperature cooking there is low/no possibility of ending up with a medium done piece of beef, when you were aiming for a medium rare. To be absolutely guaranteed at getting doneness to within the required 5F range, you would have to get your suppliers to deliver roasts of precise size. Which means supermarket standards (for size and quality). If the roasting method allows you more control, then you can take meat from other suppliers with greater variation in size, but more focus on flavour. And when you’re roasting to ‘best in class’ like a world leading chef has to do, flavour and precision are what gets you and keeps you at the top. Hence the economic rationale for doing some strange stuff in the laboratory – sorry, meant kitchen!

If you can face going through lots of photographs, you might be able to find something on the El Bulli website (www.elbulli.com). If you head for the catalog, they have a gallery of photos taken from the books. If there’s something more specific I can look up the books (I only the English versions).

I used to use pizza stones. They all split, some on first time out, others took a couple of years. I found they lasted longer when I heated and cooled them a few times in the hottest oven before putting anything on the stone. Cold water, a full (cold) casserole, some icky stuff that escaped from an upper shelf – all caused the stones to crack. I haven’t tried a heavier tile. These days I use a heavy commercial baking sheet. Not quite the extreme of a 14lb piece of steel, but it works fine. I also found that using a Teflon mat under the pizza helps. The Teflon transfers the heat quickly under the base, topping up the heat given off by the metal sheet. On balance, I can see that the steam blown off during baking would be absorbed by a pizza stone but not by a steel sheet, so stone may well have the edge for crispness.

I think you’ll find that the yeast grows much faster in really wet, >100% hydration starters. Most of the European methods for getting a starter up and ready to go, use 100% hydration (equal water and flour by weight) until the starter is active. Water levels are then reduced after a week or so, to the more usual 60-70% hydration (depending on the flour). Lower hydration makes the starter easier to control and it can be kept at peak condition by feeding only every 12 hours. On the other hand, more watery starters are really easy to mix and pour, which is great last thing at night when the thought of kneading dough is not at the front of mind.

Over the past couple of months I’ve been trying out v. low temperature roasts basically following the instructions in Heston Blumenthal’s ‘In Search of Perfection’. In sort, the method is brown the outside of the roast with a blowtorch. Put in oven at 50C (122F) for 18 hours. As controlling my home oven to this temperature is almost impossible, I have also tried a rib roast cooked sous vide. Same approach. Overall, I’m not impressed with this method. The meat seems more sandy than succulent, even though it is clearly medium-rare (I aim for an internal temperature of less than 52C/126F). Perhaps this is because the collagen leaches out of the meat with the long times. On the other hand, roasting in a hot oven of 200C (302F) gives a much better caramelization and a more interesting taste to the fat. But, the ring of overcooked meat is significant extending a full inch into the meat. The problem with higher temperatures is simply knowing how long to leave the roast in the oven. What internal temperature do you have to reach so that, during resting, the temp gently arrives at the ideal? I’m working on some charts to help me predict the overshoot, but I don’t know if anyone else would agree with my conclusion, that the very low temperature approach is too much trouble for no appreciable gain?

It’s a really good idea to pick, and reserve your restaurant, around Bastille. As you come out of the front entrance of the opera, there are many restaurants to the right and in the streets immediately behind. Many are open late. However, in polite parlance, this is an up-and-coming area, which means that it is still relatively inexpensive and attracts many students. Good for atmosphere but, in my experience the non-destination restaurants are generally pretty nasty around there. On the other hand, Paris is compact and there are lots of taxis so it’s easily possible to get to a more central destination within 10 minutes. This might give you greater choice.

I wonder if anyone else has noticed how the ‘healthy’ fats breakdown very quickly and start to give off eye-stinging fumes? For example, deep frying with sunflower oil starts to leach nasties within a couple of times of using the oil. Duck fat quickly evaporates, but the smell is appetizing and, apart from coating everything in the kitchen, it doesn’t hurt the eyes. Generally, I think animal fats tend to have higher smoke points and tend to go syrupy when they are past their prime. My major bugbear in rancid fats though, is salmon. Cooked as a confit at around 40C it tastes succulent and wonderful. Grilled or pan fried it stinks… Back to the main subject though, fats with a higher smoking point, but not necessarily melting point, give a shorter crust in pastry and, in bread making, a greater lift in the oven. Breads made with olive oil are pleasing from a marketing point of view, but a whole meal loaf made with lard (tallow) has a pleasant sweet odour, at least 10% greater volume and goes stale less quickly.