glennbech

... And The walnut bread arrived .... Here is the result of my 100% sourdough walnut bread with a walnut paste mixed into the dough. I made two loaves of aproxemately 500g and baked one straight, with little proofing (~ 1 hour). The other one I retarted overnight, and were baked from cold the morning after (Yes, I did get up 6am before going to work to bake my bread, I know I'm inpatient! *grin*) . I was not very acurate when splitting the dough in two, but as you can see, a very interesting observation can be made !!! The loaf that was kept in the fridge (at 370 g after baking) definitly has more volume, and almost 10% less weight than the other loaf not kept in fridge (410g after baking) ! The volume increase was partly added in proofing, and partly in oven spring. I Noted a very significant increase in oven spring for the retarded dough. Another Interesting observation, that I have seen before, is that when dried gluten powder is added, I get a more even crumb. Can anyone verify this statement? This is a ~ 67% hydration dough (65% base pluss 100g more or less 100% hydration walnut paste)... If it was a pure 10,7% gluten content, supermarket flour dough. I believe it would have been more uneven and would have had larger holes. The gluten content is beefed up to around 13% using dried gluten powder in this recipe. I am not sure I like this effect, and that I will keep adding the powder! Does anyone else do this ? I know for sure that industry, and mass produced bread contains it .-) Maybe I should keep it out of my artisan kitchentop craftwork .-) Anyways ; Happy with the results, at least for the loaf that I retarded for ~12 hours in the fridge. It was a lot easier to slash before I put it in the oven as well. Taking it out of the fridge, it was real tight. Any comments adding gluten? I think what I got out of this (besides a good tasting loaf) was the experience that will put fridge-retardaition forveer into my "baseline" process .-) Another technical detail; I make the following observation on the crust and crumb development over time. Is my observation in line with what others observe ? 1) After baking the bread is HOT, the crust is hard and crisp. 2) At some point after, the loaf starts to cool down, the crust is still crispy 3) The loaf is lukewarm, the crust starts to moist 4) The loaf is cold, the crust is still a bit moist 5) Left in room temperature, unwrapped for 4-6 hours, the crust of my loaf is drying up and and becoming more crispy again. Put in other words and into a technical questions ; How do we best handle and preserve hot baked loaves? By the way; These laves tastes just fantastic roasted with a bit of honey. Even with Scrabmled eggs or strawberry jam ;-)

Jackal10; Thanks for clearing that up .-) However, the consequence of this is that all recipes I've been using uptil now holds a higher salt percentage than 2% since the 2% is measured of the flour, excluding leaven. I'm still going to use a 2% of *total flour* for salt .-) Better for my health .-)

.... On oven temperature I'm so glad I bough an electronic thermometer, since my old oven doesn't have one. My oven reports 200c aproxemately 10-15 minutes before it reaches that temp. It actually says it has reaced 200 when it's about 160, thats 20% off! Just a Head's up to all of you with old electric ones! :-)

Walnut bread coming up.... I tried Dan Lepard's walnut bread from the "Handmade loaf" the other day, but I do not share his passion for putting Honey in bread .-) I also wanted to try a 100% sourdough variant. I made one Real big discovery here that alters my base process ; When making a sponge, a significant amount to the liquid vaporizes. During a period of 12 hours, my 300g sponge lost 40g of water. This means that the sponge is no longer at 100% hydarion, and that has to be calculated in when doing the final hydration calculation. I also became a bit confused on how to do baker's percentage calculations with Leaven. Dan lepard, in his book "The handmade loaf" treats the leaven as any ingredient, and do not include the flour in the leaven in the flour total. I've done the same here. The disadvantage of doing this, is that percentages of ingredients like the salt, is not really a percentage against total flour, but total flour excluding leaven flour.. Does this make sense ? Can Anyone please fill me in here ? I Might have to change my baker's percentages calculator found here http://www.glennbech.com/bakerspercentage/index.html Walnut paste 50g roasted walnuts 20g olive oil 20g syrup 10g water I mixed these ingredients in using a mortar and pestle until it became a smooth paste. Pure meditation :-) For the dough 260g white leaven (65%) 400g white flour Gluten and Vit C. enriched (100%) 100g Walnut paste (25%) 100g roasted walnuts (25%) 11g Salt (2,75%) 5g vitamin C (1,25%) I mixed the leaven, water and walnut paste on one bowl, and 380g standard flour, a dash of vitamin C and 20g dried gluten powder in another. I mixed everything and combined the contents of both bowls. Using my Kenwood Kitchen Machine I combined the inital dough, using very slow speed. I rested the dough for 30 minutes, added salt and walnuts, and mixed further on slow speed. I've decided to start using my kenwood for the initial mix from now on, as i started losing 10% of the doigh as it stuck to my arms and fingers :-) I then did 2 some 10 second kneading / 10 second rest. And bulk fermented the dough for 3 hours, doing a flip every hour. I'm going to shape two 500g loaves now, and maybe bake one, but definitly put the other one in the fridge for comparison. .-) .... To be continued ... :-)

I baked some very successful walnut bread today as well. Sinice I came home very late last night, I had no sponge to start with this morning. I decided to go for a yeasted bread instead. So, I'll post pictures when I have sourdough walnut results .-) (When baking with yeast, I use a trick I picked up from a Norwegian book, and create a sponge from water/flour, just like a sourdough pre-ferment. I use just 1/2 tsp. of dry yeast in the sponge, and leave it to triple in volume for 6-7 hours. (It works overnight in the fridge as well). In the dough, I add maybe 3/4 tsp. of more dry yeast and proof and bulk ferment the dough a lot longer than usual for yeasted bread. In this way the taste of yeast is reduced significantly, and the loaves rise just fine given just a bit more time!) Back to the walnuts! In Dan Lepard's recipe, that I tried today, he suggests making a "walnut paste" from honey, walnuts, water and butter to put into the dough as well as having walnuts in it. I guess this is just another trick to add more advanced flavour to a bread :-) You end up with getting a very subtle walnut taste from the crumb as well as having havled walnuts... Very nice! For my sourdough walnut breads, I'll try to roast them as well .-) Geat baking by the way Desiderio :-) Excellent oven spring. Do you know why one loaf was darker in colour before baking ?

LOL, nice to hear that others are struggeling with starter inconsistencies as well. I'm a very inpatient person, so when a dough doesn't rise fast enough, I pray for oven spring and put it in the oven, instead of waiting.... Usually ends in disaster, like here... http://www.glennbech.com/2006/04/sourdough-disaster.html

First of all; Great post! ! Well... I just have to say that the oven spring on that first loaf is just amazing! You must be doing a lot of things right! I think Bill44 might be right when he says that the top gets cooked first. I took special note of your picture where you hold your loaf. All the real big holes and air is at the top of the loaf. If you take a look at my "bottom-of-the-electric-oven" loaves , all the holes and air at the bottom; http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?showto...8entry1192348 I had the same problem you had with your walnut bread today with a yeasted sunflower seed recipe, with almost 150g seeds to 500g flour. I think what's happeing is that the seeds/wlnuts pierce all those lovely gluten created pockets, (especially during hard kneading!) and at the same time add weight to the douhg (more force needed to raise). I think the trick is to handle the dough very carefully when items are added. Maybe just flip the dough over itself a few times, and never really "knead" it? does this make sense ? Anyone ? Maybe also try with less, or more fine grained walnuts? I'm baking tomorrow. Maybe I'll try the walnut recipe from dan lepard's book. It includes making a "walnut paste", as well as including walnuts into the dough .-) Happy baking!

On "baking days" I usualy use a tablespoon of my refrigerated starter, and whisk in 150g of lour and 150g of water before going to work. When coming back, 10-12 hours later, I measure the increase in volume. I do this by keeping the pre-ferment in a measuring cup. 150g water/150g flour starts out as about aproxemately 3 dl. By "low potent" starter, I mean those days where the volume only has increased from 3 to 5 dl. Somethimes the pre-ferment rises to 8-9 dl in 10-12 hours. I guess the difference is caused by different in temperatures or the state of my refrigerated starter culture.. ? When baking with the starter that is less potent, it seems that the dough rises slower, So I bulk ferment and proof longer. Does this make any sense ? Hmm, as for the scaled weight.. .To you mean my bad tasting, web crumbed tomato loaf? I believe it was 816 g when I put it in and about 700 when I took it out.... I read somewhere that the loaf should have a core temp of 190c when it's finished. Im reluctant to sticking my kitchen termomenter into the middle of my loaf to measure this. I guess I have to learn by trial and error .-) (If there is no magic formula to see when they are done that is!) I knock on it and try to hear if it "sounds" right. I guess this will work ,when I get even more xperience .-)

No I have another tough question as well.... Im tired of getting wet crumb. My loaf had a weight of 816g (500g flour) when I put it inn and 700g when I took it out. (This was aproxemately what I was aiming for, a 700g loaf). It was at 67% hydratrion, and since only water can leave the loaf, I assume that 116g of water is gone, and the new hydration level of my finished loaf is 43,8%. i will experiment with this and take notes of pre-and post bake weights, but If anyone could tell me at what hydration level a crumb dries up, I could take my bread out of the oven and put it on a scale to see if it's finished! That would be real nice!: -)

I love questions. Im not able to answer everything, but maybe others will chip in .-) Q: Did you use that formula to get those loaves ( the one without the sundried tomatoes) All the loaves are basicly the same recipe with some adjustments to scale only (but all aproxemately 67% hydration). The difference between my sundried tomato- and the other loaves, was that the tomato loaf was made with a very strong starter that doubled during bulk in a couple of hours. I baked it after a short 1.5-2 hour proof. The other loaves that you see on the picture had a real slow, low-potent starter. I bulk fermented longer, and proofed longer without getting a double size. The result ended up the same due to better oven spring. This sourdough baking is still a bit of a mystery to me .-) By the way ; The sundried tomato loaf tasted awfull .-) Wet chewy crumb and real sour tomatos. I think this happened because it's a larger dough than I usually make, and I kept the baking times the same. The sundried tomato's were also a bit wet.... Q: And another question where can I find the dried gluten and it does make a big difference if I am using a flour that is a little bit over 12% protein ?I mean is that strong enough or do I need to add the dried gluten to make it stronger? In Norway it's difficult to find flour with greater protein content than 10,7 %, that's why I decided to add gluten. If your flour is 12%, then you might not get any noticible differnece. I buy my powder at a well stocked supermarket. ' I'e seen a scientific report on the effects of adding gluten in pasta production They state that adding anything above 3% does not yield any results. Maybe the same goes for bread? I don't feel qualified to answer your question on wether to add gluten or not to your already strong flour .-) Q: Did you find in you baking experiments that retarding the dough helped your bread ? Im a very inpatient person by nature, so up til now I've only tried to retard the dough once. I rather stay up all night and baby sit my dough :-) Even if it means beeing tired the entire day at work .-) I guess a retard would have been benficial for a flavoured dough (olives, tomatos etc). Q: And the mixing part is all by hand , food processor , KA or similar? AHhh well dont blame me for all the questions you start it!!!! I love an active thread! .-) Keep stories and questions coming. I've learned so much after joining this fourum it's unbelievable .-) After reading Dan's book "the handmade loaf" I've been hand mixing. However, I'm finding that during the initial mix, my hands get so sticky, that I wash 2-3 % of the dough off my fingers .-) I might go back to mixing the initial dough in my Kenwood Major. I'm looking for some oval baskets now, and may go for some baguettes this weekend .-) Happy baking .-)

... And if anyone can tell me if my laaarge holes is attributed to the violent oven spring, or my mixing (or perhaps both) I'd apericiate it .-) It belongs to the story that the balls in the upper left picture were maybe half that size when they entered the oven .-)

Olive bread put on hold for a while, im working with a generic sourdough recipe for adding things like chopped olives, sundried tomato's etc. Adding dried gluten made the dough sureprisingly easy to handle. I will dry to get my hands on strong flour, but until then it's 3% added DGP :-) I also read somwhere that the dried gluten poweder also helps colour. At least in Pasta, but I guess the same will go for bread .-) Today I baked this ; (150g flour is in my leaven, 350 in the douhg, Im not sure If I've written down my percentages correct here) 300g white leaven (30%) 350g regular white flour (70%) 190g whater (66,7%) 50g Chopped sundried tomato's (10%) 15g Dry Gluten powder (3.33%) 10g salt (2%) 5g Vitamin C (1%) .. My "slap-the-dough-directly-onto-the-bottom-of-the-electric-oven" teqnique also seems to be providing me with steady great oven spring .-) I took some photo's of my experiment with the oven spring (all pictures), and also with my chopped sundried tomato bread (bottom right) that is now filling my apartment with a homely scent .-) I'm so confident now that I promised my mother a batch of 5 loaves for her silver wedding anaversary .-) Better keep practicing .-) Todays Q; Is there any use in slashing a bread with "stuff" in it? let it be olives, tomato's, fruit etc? My (limited) experience is that the crust cracks up enough to let the dough rise, even without the slicing because the items pierce the crust. Any points of view on this ?

Thanks bill. I try to use the same recipe every time now, so that I get use to how the volume of the dough sould look in my proving basket, and in my mixing bowl during bulk ferment. Knowing one's equipment helps a lot .-) I made an olive bread last night, and have to report partly failure. The olives are very salty, and togheter with 2% salt in my dough, the experience was wel... Let's say I was thirsty after just tasting it. -) Will try again with less salt in the dough. Anyone with the same experience? Maybe I should try to rinse the olives, or soak them in water for a while before using ? Maybe change to a diferent type of olive? Besides from that ; I get Increddible oven spring using my "bottom of the electric oven" teqnique. Im not sure I'll botter to re-invest in a new Baking stone .-) I will post pictures later showing the results .-)

I'm taking my 14 day old legs out this weekend.. Any Idea on what to serve them with? I've heard a green salad, a potato stew and mustard are unbeatable. Any other ideas, traditional or non-traditional suggestions welcome :-)

About the potency of starters/pre-ferments.... I hope anyone can shed some ligh on this mystery for me... Today, after coming home from work, my tablespoon of starter + 100g flour/100g water was not as potent as It usually is. I always put the preferment in a measuring cup, so that I can see tha actual rise. The attached image shows a "medium" rise for my starter culture. The "best" I've managed to go from 3 dl to 8-9 dl in about 12 hours (I came home from work 12 hours after starting the pre-ferment, so the actual time may have been less. ) Today, I got a weak 1/3 rise, as compared to a 4/3 rise like earlier. I forgot the measuring cup in the window, and it has been exposed to direct sunlight for periods of time during the day. Can that have something to do with it ? My "mother" culture that lives in the fridge has gone into the mode where it has a fluid layer on top. I emptied a lot of it today and fed it flour & water, and are planning to repeat that in 24 hours. Is this really neccesary? And My real question is; Does the "potency" of the pre-ferment directly affect it's rising capabilities ? I mean does a highly potent pre-ferment rise a dough more and faster? . Is is possible to use a not so active pre-ferment and just increase proofing / bulk ferment time ? I guess I will get the answer to this now, as the loaves are in my hand crafted proofing baskets as I type... However after 2 hours of proofing, I can't say I have an explosion .-). .-) Maybe I'll bake one, and see if I get some oven spring. If I don't I just keep proofing the other one 2-3 more hours. Medium starter activity (according to my observations of my own culture) can be seen here . How does this compare to your starters ?

BryanZ; I'm always intereded in taste *grin* how did you like the dill with grapefruit ? I've always associated dill with fish dishes .-) How did the ginger go with it? Both Dill and ginger have very distinct tastes. Mint I can see straigh away that would work .-) I love the idea of presenting the same ingredient three different ways on the same plate by the way. Sonunds like an exercise given at a culinary school ! I have to figure out one of my own now! :-)

I've seen on some tutorials where just a floured linnen cloth and a baking pin is used to hold baguettes in shape wil proofing. I'm also trying to get my hands on a few oval baskets to hold batons. Dan Lepard's book (Handmade loaf) is okay. However, only the first few chapters are "knowhow" and "technique" the rest is bread recipe's from around northern europe and russia/ukraina. That is however; Great inspiration! Also has a recipe for an interesing starter on yogurt and rasins .-) I tried a recipe last night with my hand crafted proofing baskets. They worked so well, and Im so pleased with them. The breads on the other hand were not so great .-) Since this is a Tecnical Q/A Thread.... Q :How long do you have to soak/boil whole grain wheat to get them moist enogh to include in a bread? I tried like 15 minutes or something, and the bread still had some real hard grain in them. Q: I'l also not so sure about adding honey (Dan Lepard has a it in many recipe's), it has a real distinct taste. Q: I experienced first hand that the whole grain pierces the gluten, and reduces rise. Crust development was also real bad as it "cracked up" everywhere. No need to slash these I tell you that. Can I add pure gluten to such a recipe to counter such an effect? Can I add pure gluten poweder to wheat flour to "boost" it into "strong flour" ? Q: Is autolysis without leaven and added salt extra important in whole grain, and recipes with a smaller amount of gluten? Desiderio: I'm Looking forward to seeing those baguettes. I wan to try some myself

*grin* well... maybe he's just an "eye hand coordination" natural talent? Or maybe just had loootos and lots of practice .-) Good luck on your startup by the way! :-)

This was real fun! I managed to get the teqnique right after a few tries. I had an excellent baking day today, with a yeast/sour combo with boiled whole wheat grain, honey and roasted Barley flour still in the oven. I also made myself some baskets for proofing today! Real fun, and no sweat. rubbed'em with rye flour before use. They worked like a charm! More pictures at my blog

So If I got this right..... The first picture is the start position. The dough ball is then "pushed" left to right (from dan's point of view), with his left hand? (This process would make it a bit oval right?) Of course some friction and stickyness from the surface is neccesary here .-) The dough oposite the hand gets "pulled under" the ball, tightening it... In the last picture he has moved the ball back for another go. Did I get it right? Thanks for the cool pictures. Nice to see the master in action .-)

Thanks for stepping in with a different explanation jack. I'l maybe have my wife photograph me while make an atempt.

Another Q ; What's the fuss about a baking stone anyway? I havn't tried this yet, but how about smacking the proven loaf directly at the floor of the electric oven (With a baking parchment ofcoursr)? If it's heated to 230c, the floor of the oven should have the same temperature right ? Talk about direct contact with the heatsource! :-) I might have to lift it up after a while to avoid a black bottom'ed bread though..... Did anyone try this ?

Nice work! Was it a rye bread or just the starter? Looks like a BIG loaf you've got there .-) I liked the looks of your crumb! Here is New Question for all you bread bakers that at the same time are owners of Dan lepard's book "The handmade loaf"; In the beginning of the book there is a description on how to shape either a baton, stick or ball. I don't get his description on how to form a "ball", it says something about dragging the doigh left to right while rotating it clockwise. Can anyone provide a better explanation of this teqhnique?

I'm getting myself some baskets... Any pointers to online shops? I've been trying to find supplies in Norway without any luck. I can't even find strong flour anywhere. You've got a real important point here. As you can see the surface of my loaves are extremely dusted with flour. Since I use rye, it actually gives an "off" taste to the crust. I actually "dusted" the loaf after baking .-) Taste wise, this bread was excellent. Very spongy and even crumb, I'll post pictures later. The only negative thing taste wise, was the thick layer of rye flour on the crust.

Im happy to hear that things worked out! So you removed the dough your baking pan, heated them up a bit, and put the dough back into the pans ? From my limited experience, It is seems it is possible to get very good rise during proofing even if you take a cold baking pan straight out of the fridge, and just leave it in room temperature for a couple of hours. Not sure why you got the "tunnel", but i think I know what you mean. I've gotten similar results when using a "dry" dough (60-65%), and folding the dough just before baking. Does this make sense? What happens to the inside of the loaf during baking is still a great mystery to me .-)