glennbech

Hi bill44! Samartha's entire site sure is interesting material. As I've understood it, the goal of the Detmold 3 stage process is to provide a consistent way of producing an optimum starter for sourdough baking. But, after you inncoulate your starter into your dough, do you really need additional growth of yeast? The research I provided stated found an only 26% increase in yeast cell count in a dough during 6 hours of fermentation. This is mainly because yeast cells only reproduce with access to oxygen. http://home.earthlink.net/~ggda/The_Artisa...Yeast%20Growth) What I want to experiment with is a high inncoulation of healthy starter (50/50 like samartha's experiments), and increased temperature during bulk to get a high level co2 production and increased enzyme activity to develop flavour. Enzyme activity doubles with every 10 degrees, so 2 hours at 34c should compare to about 16 hours in the fridge (4c). Please note that my theory is entirely dependant of enzyme activity as the major flavour developer. The yeast also produces much more Co2 at temperatures above 30c, so the dough will probably double faster as well. My point is that time alone doesn't make the flavour, it's the chemical processes happening to all the raw meterials. I want to see if I can speed up the process, by applying basic microbiology and chemistry knowledge.

Less yeast means longer bulk. As you already know, The yeast is primarily responsible for making pockets inside of the dough and fill them with Co2. The LB works in symbiosis with the yeast, providing nutrients, and keeping other strains of yeast from becoming dominant (by among other things lowering the Ph of the dough) If I understand Peter Reinhardt's chapter on bulk fermentation in the BBA correctly, most of the flavours actually come from the process where sugars are derived from the starch in the flour by enzyme activity. My guess is that this is why we all experience that Slow is good for flavour. More time for these reactions to happen. However; A rule of thumb in BioChemistry states that for every 10 °C rise in temperature, the enzyme will react twice as fast. My "theory" is that increasing temperature in all stages of the process, *may* be like pressing "fast forward" on your VCR. You still get to the end of the comerical break, only faster :-) I'll definitly do some experiments. To bad there isn't a "Myth busters" for home bakers .-)

The bacterial fermentation surely produces the "sour" taste (acids, like lactic acid), but it is not to my knowledge responsible for bringing out other flavours from the flour. If I undersand the chemistry correct, the Enzymes (amylase) that helps to break the complex starch molecyles into simple sugars are responsible for most of those flavours.

I've beeing using this article as a reference for some time, especially paying attention to the temperature graph showing growth rates of the yeast/lb. sf at different temperatures. http://www.egullet.com/imgs/egci/sourdough/science.html It says; "The right temperature is the single most critical variable. Michael Ganzle and his co-workers did some studies on this. They found the following growth rates of L. sanfranciscensis and C.milleri as function of temperature. Growth rate is ln2/generation time, i.e. a growth rate of 0.7 is a generation (doubling time) of about 1 h. " Now, after having a rather heavy discussion in the rec.sourdough newsgroup, there I'd like to hear your opinions on my theory. I claim that finding the right temperature for Yeast growth is meaningless. The following article state that almost no yeast-repoduction is done in anaerobic environments. (A typicall dough is not a very oxygen rich environment.) The research found here state that the maximum yeast increase in a typical dough is 26% (during six hours.) This is a very different scenario from "doubeling" every hour or so (!) http://home.earthlink.net/~ggda/The_Artisa...#Yeast%20Growth I'm also starting to question to why low temperatures, and even "room temperature" are good for bulk fermentation. Why isn't bulk always done at about 32.5c? This is the optimum fermentation temperature for yeast, enzyme activity is hight, and the Lb. Sf grow (they reproduce in environments with no oxygen). This graph shows the co2 Production of yeast at different temperatures. Proofing should most definitly be done at around 32.5c? (Maximum co2 production) When proofing, most of the taste development is already done, and we're only interested in rise? I'm havging a hard time believing that bread tastes better if it's been proofing for let's say 4 hours instead of 2. (The Co2 output is significantly higher at 32.5c than 27.5, the difference is probably enough to cut the proofing in half) Does anyone have some input on this? Doing things Slowly isn't good if it's done only for the sake of doing it slow. There are also a million myths and claims out there whith semi-scientific explanations. This is probably bacuse most bakers are not microbiologists, and that microbiologists probably doesn't bake much :-) My claim is, in short; Keep temperatures up all the time (32c+) when baking sourdough. There is no reason to go "cold and slow". At least not for bulk/proofing. Comments?

That looks real good! I've seen some dark/white braids earlier, and really want to try that. What kind of bread is this, and what kind of recipes did you use?

A Sponge should keep in the fridge for 48 hours? The Biga and Patê de Fermentee does, maybe the sponge is different? I think the core of my problem is working with an unknown electric oven, leading to baking on too low temperature for too long. Me and my wife live with my parents as a temporary solution due to refurbishment. Dull knives, old leaky oven, no digial scale, hard water... Small challenges that make baking sessions interesting. How about this for a semi-scientific experiment ? Bake 2 douhgs A & B. Both use Pain de Campagne recipe's from BBA. Both loaves will be at ~ 700g. The oven will be heated to "max" for 60 minutes. When the loaves go in, 100g of water go into a steam pan, and the walls of the oven gets a treat with a mister. The oven is reduced to 200c Dough A bulk ferments for 2 hours, is shaped, given 1 - 1.5 hour proof. Hot stone baked. Dough B will get the "treat". 3 hours bulk, knockdown, retardation in the fridge overnight, "wake-up" period of 2-3 hours on the bench, shaping proofing and hot stone baking. I'll try this, as soon as I get the time. If A&B looks, and tastes the same, I'll find myself a new hobby! :-.)

I tried out the "Pain de campagne" recipe from Peter Reinhard's "The Bread baker's apprentice". It's basicly a rustic french bread with a stiff, salted, pre-ferment (Patè de fermentee??) I'm hoping to be baking a lot from this book in the coming future :-) I followed the recipe and decided to bake one boule instead of 3 smaller baguettes. I didn't have a fine wholemeal wheat, so I sifted a coarse one. I guess the result is a finer wholemeal than the one intended in the recipe. But... My Question is about crust colour. When baking was done (200c for 50 minutes), the crust was still pale. I decided to let it go for another 5-10 minutes, and it was still on the "pale side". This was an unfamiliar oven, so I might have had a lower temperature than I though. Anyhow, I have a few crust issues I hope somebody could help me discuss. - I was of the believe crust colour came from sugar content, and that sugar content comes from the end result of enzyme activity and fermentation; breakdown of starch to sugars. My dough had a 48 hour old pre-ferment (my pate de fermentee from my fridge), and had 3 hours total time to ferment (2 hours bulk, 1 hour proof). This should have been enough to get a golden crust, right ? - How much crust colour come from introducing steam in the initial baking stage? Does this only add to, and enhance the effect of the sugar content in the dough? My current understanding is that if the dough isn't mature enough, you could steam all you want and get a pale crust. If the dough is "mature", added steam can make a real difference in colour. How does this hold up?

I have two questions really; 1) How do you get a probe into the center of a 5lbs loaf that is proofed correctly? Was it a dense dough? My 2lbs laves, baked in my home oven are huge "football" sized loaves. 2) When you check the core temp. with a probe thermometer. Doesn't this leave marks in the loaf? Also, for artisan style loaves an open crust, what happens if you measure in one of the big airy holes?

Im a computer scientist/Software developer. Even taking something I've produced for an employeer with me when I leave would be considered a deadly sin. Removing the product from my employer would be even worse and would result in a lawsuit for sure. Bead and computers are not always comparable though. I would take the advice of the other people here and put your ego aside. Try to leave the business with all smiles and on good terms with your ex-collegeus! You never know where ,when or in what situation you'll face them again! Best of luck

Actually... The article says this ; As food, El Bulli's golden eggs would lose nothing if the gold powder were omitted. As something more than food, as comedy or theatre, this dish is not the same without it. As "comady or theatre"... I think I'd practice without, and maybe impress the h*ll out of some friends with the "real deal" for a special occasion .-) Also, I'd never never never use the gold before I had the technique 100% .-) Update please! :-)

Dan Lepard's White Leaven "Handmade loaf" is one of the stickiest and dirtiest books in my shelf :-) I guess this comes down to personal "workflow". Personally, I'd find it cumbersome to measure up 1 tsp of oil, and try to share that between hands and the countertop for 4 kneads and three stretch and folds. But I guess that's why I improvised a bit and bough the mister. Bill; Remember that you've been baking for some years now, and others started their first Sourdough culture in April :-) What I will try, Is Peter Reinhart's technique to oil AND dust cloth to improve i couche. Have anyone tried that? I guess this is somewhat related to the common technique of buttering and duting muffin pans etc. My Best,

bILL44; For me, we're not talking about 1 tsp. We're talking about 1 tsp per kneading for the countertop, and the same for my hands :-) With 6-7 kneadings during the life of the dough, this becomes quite a bit!

In my last couple of sessions, I've actually incorporated too much *water* into my dough after wetting my hands and countertop. That is one problem you have, both with oil and water. If the recipe does not call for oil in the first place, I guess water makes most sense. I Invested in two very basic misters. The kind you would usually use in your garden, very cheap (I love home made makeshift baking equipment!) I have oil in one of them, and water in the other. Using a mister with water on the countertop minimizes the amount I have to use. So far, this works like a charm.

Keep us informed! .-) I need to bake something for a family BBQ on Sunday, maybe I'll do Ciabata's inspired by this thread .-) I got the BBA book on monday and have been reading through it lately, that guy sire has real passion for bread! :-)

I'm a computer professional. How many of you guys think there would be a market for Costing software for small businesses? Anyone feel like getting rich ?

Sounds great, thanks for sharing the experience. I've been wanting to try the ciabata for a while. Im sceptical due to the very hydrated dough *grin* My kitchen will look a mess! .-) When baking the ciabata; How do they look during proofing? Do they just "flow out" like small pancakes, or do they acutally hold some kind of shape? Are they "flat", and spring up? Also, I've seen ciabatas dusted with flour after baking, is this "authentic" ?

A question about taste; I made a real bland and teasteless yeasted bread from 100% pure white wheat flour during the weekend. I mean... It didn't taste a thing. We had to put tons of butter on, and sprinkle with kosher salt. I have a few Ideas on what went wrong; Can anyone chip in and falsify/verfify my theories? - Me and a friend took a boat trip for 60 minutes, while the dough was fermenting in the shade outside. It was a yeasted loaf with 1% fresh yeast. When we got back, the dough had "exploded" all over the pan I fermented it in. It was huge, and had started to deflate. Can the yeast "eat up" a lot of the starch, so much that it affects the taste of the loaf ? - I was without my tools, and had no accurate scale. I know I put too little salt in.... - Flour quality... Is there such a thing? The All purpose flour I can get is very cheat (under $1/kg). I have no idea what the quality is. If flour a "fresh" product, that should be consumed within a certain time after milling? If I got "old" flour, does it taste bad/different from "fresh"? Does bread made from one type of wheat, taste different/better than bread made form another wheat flour? Im in the dark here, enlighten me ! :-)

shacke; I love your crumb texture, but I think your loaf seems a bit on the underproofed side. Look at the violent tear during oven spring (!!) Did you cut the loaf with a knife/razor at all ? Maybe you could've gotten even larger holes/more rise with a longer proofing time ? Maybe you wanted the dramatic tear effect? But hey... It sure looks good to me .-) Great work!

Jack; I'll try tat later. -) Lorinda; Well... Even though the crumb was very airy and light, with lots of uneven holes, the bread still has a "spongy" feel. With "spongy" I mean that if I poke the crumb in with my finger, the dent bounces back in less than a second. I did this test with the italian bread (my wife was a bit embarrased at the restaurat, *smile*). When pushing the cumb of the Italian bread I talked about earlier, it took about 4-5 seconds before the dent in the crumb recovered fully. I'll think I'll try baking with fats, and getting a weaker flour. I believe a lower gluten content will help. The real problem is getting weak flour, I may get my hands on "cake flour", but the suppermarkets really don't have that much to choose from here in Norway's capitol Oslo...

Beanie; Thanks! I spread a large chunk of raspberry marmelade on the loaves. mmmm... .-) Me and my wife ate half of it in no time! :-) I didn't use any oil, sprinkled water both on the working surface, and hands. It works real well! Thanks for the tip! Since the goal of my little "exercise" was wet dough handling, I took a few shortcuts. I fermented for about 30 minutes (for a total of total 60 minutes fermentation) after the initial kneadings. No time for stretch and fold. I turned on the oven, and proofed while the oven&stone got hot. (about 45-60) I regret not proofing the loaf longer, as I think It had potential for even more volume. Not that it really matters, it was already ultra light and fluffy... I was real happy with apearance/texture of this loaf. It is, however, a bit "tasteless". I think I'll try this loaf as a sourdough this weekend or next week. That'll be fun!

I tried a very basic yeasted loaf today with great sucess. 500g flour (Italian '0') 100% 350g water (70%) 10g yeast. (2%) 10g salt. (2%) The aim for this "exercise" was to handle a 70% hydrated dough. The hypothesis was that making a cold dough, and making sure not to over-handle should make it managable. I measured my water to 9 degrees, the final dough ended up at about 15c, (but was up to 24 in no time). I kneaded the dough in the mixing bowl 3 times for the first 30 minutes, making sure to not overdo anything. I baked it for 65 minutes, using a very hot stone on the lower rack of my electric oven. The sone had been warming up at my oven's max temp for about an our. I reduced the oven's temp t 200 and tossed in some ice cubes along with the loaf. Great results, no sticking when I shaped it to a ball for proofing. The crumb is very fluffy, and cotton like. A real crunchy crust. I was afraid of over-proofing it because of the temp, so as you can see from the crust (tearing in the gringe), I underproofed it slightly.

Hi Jack, Thanks for providing the insight, and claring up the gluten vs. stickyness question. I'm often using the "side to centre" folding you describe. When I "Hand bake", this is basicly all I do during the initial 10 sec. kneading. I usually try to give the dough the shape of a ball, by pushing it along the bench, utilizing the friction, after each kneading, before putting it back to the bowl for a rest. I guess I have an Idea in my head that it's good to have the dough as one coherent mass, rather than something I've scooped off the bench with a spatula .-) One thing that struck my mind, is that you write things like "turn it over", and "fold". When I last worked with a 70% dough, folding and turning is impossible, at least for the first 10 second knead, as it soon sticks to the bench (and hands). I also think I'll invest in one of those oil spray canister. I suspect I incorporate to much oil into the dough. I use at least one large tablespoon during each kneading. That actually results in quite a lot over 6 kneadings. I think I'll bake a yeasted experimental dough at 70% today, with cold (15-20c) water and maybe document the process. So ... I'll try - Colder dough - Gentel handling - Less oil And We'll se how it goes .-)

This may is off topic, but a general Bread questions ; - Does the temperature of the dough affects is "stickyness" ? Is a dough at let's say 70% hydration easier to handle at 15c than 28c ? - Any tips on how to handle doughs > 70% hydration? I usually oil my work surface, and hands generously with olive oil. However, the dough usually absorb this oil pretty fast, and my fingers and hands become sticky. Once My hands get sticky, the dough just sticks even more... Im sure you all know what I mean .-) It's very difficult to roll one kilo of such a messy sticky mass into for example a ball. Resting/kneading helps a bit, I usually notice that the dough gets a tiny bit easier to handle after each rest. - Low gluten flour sticks less, High gluten flour sticks a lot, right?

Baking in this weather is challenging. Since I had some baking failures lately, no... let's call them "less successfull baking sessions" :-) I wanted to go back to basics and just do Dan Lepard's white leaven bread. The recipe expicitly states "room temperature" is optimal, and all timing (bulk/proofing) is based on 20c. It was closer to 28 in my kitchen yesterday, and I used an unfamiliar flour (Tipo '0' pizza flour). I saw the way my baking session were going already after the second "short kneading. I couln't get the dough unto one coherent dough due to stickyness. I switched from oiling my baking surface to dusting it with flour from that point. That helped a bit. After about 2,5 into the 4 hour long bulk ferment period, the dough was already doubled. I knocked it down and shaped my loves. Sinice I suspected that things were moving a lot faster than usual, I did 30 minutes of proofing, and stuck them in the fridge. And get this ! *the loaves still over-proofed on me!!!* I decided to bake straight from the fridge since my dough still was a bit "sticky". When slashing one of the loaves with a razor blade, it collapsed! .-) To prove to myself that I knew what was going on, I decided not to slash the second one, and my theory was that I would get little or no Oven spring. Of course I was right. I got only a very small tear in my loaf during baking. (very hot stone) Well.. .The point or morale of this story is all kinds of bread baking will depend heavily on the surroundings, and that recipes only are guidlines. To make this work, you have to know exactly, or at least have a good "general" idea, of what is really going on inside your loaf/dough. This is probably what makes baking interesting though, so I don't really complain .-) Frustration out, I feel much better now .-)

Yepp. You're probably on to something. The dough definitly weakened after bulk fermentation/during proof. So the trick with 100% wholemeal is to get it onto the brick as "quick as possible" (or, at the optimal time) to avoid deflation / gluten degradation?