glennbech

Thanks! yes, the difference is enourmous. The only thing that is done different between the loaves is that the good one, didn't stick to my cloth! You should be able to get non-stick with rye flour, maybe you should try my aproach? It's a bit messy but it worked for me. I use a *very* large amount of rye flor and put it on my cloth in a pile in the middle. I then start rubbing it in all over. You can see a picture of it upthread somewhere .-) My final steps are always like this. 1. After "bulk" fermenting, I take the dough out it's bowl and put it on an oiled surface. I have then prepared my "couche" in advance. My couche is simply a baking bowl, with the floured cloth put on the inside. 2. I try to shape the dough into a ball, knocking it down as little as possible in the process. It always defaltes a great deal during this step, but I guess that's okay. 3. I slip the dough into my couche, put a lid on it, and put it somewhere warm for about 3 hours. 4. I take out my baking peel Home made. It's very ugly, but I build it with my hands ) and put a sheet of baking paper on top of my peel. 5. I simply flip my "couche" on top of baking sheet, and remove the cloth (critical step! *grin* lot's of accidents have happened here). 6. Slice with Gilette razors, and slide onto the baking stone using the peel. It's worth noticing that I slide entire thing, including the baking parchment onto the stone! (In case you tried to move the loaf only.... That is probably very difficult!) The parchment can easily take the heat. 7. Sometimes I put a oven save bowl of water in with the loaf. Soetimes I throw cold water at the bottom of the oven... I'm not sure yet what works best. I heard someone are using Ice cubes... Must try that .-) 8. I'll maybe make a "1 day sourdough" tutorial/pictorial when i get my routine in order, and all my facts straight (I've ordered a few good books now, So Im going to get into all the dirty chemistry and biology details here...) :-) Good luck on the baking!

Well.. I'm very happy with today's results. One good loaf, and one real bad. The most important thing is that I now (might) have a "baseline" process that I can build on and optimize, that woorks for my conditions. (And that produces decent bread *grin*) Leasons learned today; #1 ) I will never again leave room for any doubt that the dough may stick to the couche. I'll smear, rub and sprinkle so much rice or rye flour on that cloth, that nothing will ever stick. I'm also keeping this cloth in a sealed box for later use. Using plenty of flour in the proofing basket also has another benefit. The surface of the bread gets drier, and is easier to slice. Even Gilette Razor blades have problems with a wet dough. #2 ) I now learn how much rise that is theoreticaly possible to get from my "standard recipe", and can see from my proofing box when it's time to move it into the oven. Standard Recipe follows, as entered into my home made Online Baker's percentage calculator, comments on this is more than welcome! .-) #3) "one day sourdough" is possible .-) #4) The Kenwood Kitchen machine is suspended from it's duty when baking. A few folds and some stretches and lot's of rest is all that the dough needs. Here you can see the two loaves for today. Both are made using the exact same recipe. The smallest and most compact (the bad), stuck to my couche and colapsed. The other Im quite happy with. It's still hot so I can't' slice it yet .-)

Over-proofed or not... If you look at the picture where My cloth is totally stuck to the dough.... Might explain a few things .-) Anyhow... I always have a backup plan, and baked the exact same recipe starting this morning... So I'm making a "one day" variant with 3 hours ferment, shaping, 2 hour proof, slit, bake and pray for spring .-) It looks real good, smells real g so far... I'll post pictures later tonight (It's 00:51 here).

Well... I can only report disaster! But at least, I know where I went wrong and are making steps to correct them. I guess that's the most important thing ? I decided on not to bake right from the fridge. So I rised the loaf for about 3 hours, and got incredible size. It was on it's way out of my proofing basket. Then disaster struck Again .... Have a look at this... What a complete disaster. over 24 hours after i started this bread, it's totally ruined by a bad couche! Im making sure that that will never happen again! A small detail.... Does these bubbles mean the dough is over-proved, or just well proved? I got real good rise after I took it out of the fridge. Okay... So this is what Im doing with the stickyness.... I took out a fresh cloth. Put it on my kitchentop and sprinkled with a Lot of rye flour. I then started to press and work the flour into the cloth by applying preasure. I'm trying this design for an "anti-stick couche" as I type, and will report back with a (I hope) successfull atempt. The result was, of course a totally defalted dough. I should probably have put it back in a basket for a second proof. But I decided to go with it and test it's oven spring. The results were not good, as you can see. A Very dense wet crumb (Due to under-baking), and large holes. Not a good combo .-) I'll bake my next batch tonight, with an improved couche and report back the results. Proof of failure ;

Would you mind posting the recipe? I've always been fascinated by the fact that bagels are cooked :-) Nice pictorial !

Okay... 3'rd post in a row here :-) I'm spamming this thread... (I don't really care since I started it, and really want to share a Revealation made last night *grin* ) Instead of mixing the dough first carefully for 3 minutes, and then more intensly up to 5 minutes more with my Kenwood, I just used the machine to mix all ingredients after my pre-ferment. I then just worked a bit with the dough on the table top, and let it rest for 10-15 mintutes. Here is the incredible thing.. when I got back, I expected a wet difficult to handle douhg. That was not true! The doigh had "hardened" significantly, and I was able to give it a few "folds" and "flips" with my hands oiled. I let it rest some more, and went back later... Even more firmness.... I've read about this teqnique on this forum, but seeing it for myself was a very interesting experience. I didn't do this "scientificly" like counting seconds when handling the dough, and doing perfect timings between handling, but I rested and worked the dough for an hour or so. It is by far the firmest and easiest 68% hydration dough I'e been working with as of today .-)

What were your rising and proofing times for this batch? I'm not sure anymore if the "holes" is something to aim for (other than the cool looks) I managed to get real big holes with my last loaves, but the crumb was still moist and compact .-) So... Big holes surrounded by bad tasting moist crumb... I'd be happy with an even spongy and fluffy crumb any day .-) I have a dough in the fridge right now that rised 4 hours last night, shaped and put directly into the fridge. I wonder if I should proof it for 3-4 hours before baking, or just slap it on the peel, slice and bake.... Any Ideas on this? Anyone ?

Your crumb looks real nice, but you say it wasn't cooked on the inside ? Do you mean like a bit "moist"? I've experienced that I couple of times. Good work man!

It's so cool to hear that you guys are altering your time table to babysit bread. I thought I was the only one. Lol .-)

Hi Paul, Thanks for taking the time to reply in such detail! The reason I experiment with short bulk and short proof is to cram one bread baking session into one day. 7 hours of bulk/proof just doesn't fit into my schedule. (I'd be baking at 01:00 am) The final conclusion may be that good bread isn't baked in a day .-) I could bulk ferment , shape and retard (fridge) one day and proof on the next though. I might try that .-) Paitience... I have to have patience... As of your advice on over-handling.. It's nice to learn that Im doing something right. My peel technique is getting real good, the only thing that cause disaster right now, is that my linnen cloth sometimes sticks to the dough. Even the smallest sticky point will completely ruin the proofed loaves. I'm trying everything... rye flour, rice flour, rubbing it in, putting the cloth in the basket, closing it with a lid and shaking it like crazy etc. I'm getting there .... Good results last night :-) As for the steam... I'm doing that too, and during this weekend I think I "over-steamed" a few. I got real shiny looking bread. Too bad I didn't take a picture of it.

"200g bread flour" what is this ? Stronger flour ? Vitamin C added ? Another thing; Any ideas on how to keep the dough and pre-ferment at about 30c during the day? I've been experimenting with placing a thermometer all around my apartment. Drafty windows, and a cold Norwegian Spring makes "room temperature" about 20-22c.... Not Ideal for baking :-)

.... I also found another good reason for trying this. I still remember one negative thing about the original recipe -> The taste of the yeast. Now I have have to try it with sourdough .-)

It's just amazing how the crust holds without cracking up! Must be all that milk fat and butter doing it's work .-) Another thing; I have a electrc fan assisted oven as well. Do you use the fan when baking? I usually burn stuff when using the fan, so I've avoided it so far for baking.

Okay, I see what you mean now. thanks .-) By the way; I experienced a huge benefit from putting the dough in the fridge for retardation the other day ; It definitly stiffnes up a bit, especially with wet doughs. This makes the shape of the loaf better (less dreaded pan-cake effect in the oven), also easier to slice.

Speechless!! Can you elaborate on how you got the crust so evenly coloured (Eggs?) and the loaf so round in shape. What kind of "pan" is used ? I'll have to try this for myself now... .-) Respect :-) Rgrds.

I'm still very curious about the difference between bulk ferment and proofing. I mean... Why don't just form the laoves right away, and bulk ferment/proof at the same time. It might have something to do with texture I gues? That the "knockdown" the doigh gets when you form the loaves is a good thing. I Might have to conduct some experiments of my own here .-) Rgrds,

In my experience, you should take those loaves out as early as possible. The fermentation process that raisesyour bread are very dormant when cold. The dough will use some hours just to get to room temperature. I'd definitly go for 9 am, if the aim is to double their size before they go into the oven, From what I've read, and from my limited experience, it's hard to overproof (so they collapse) sourdough loaves. Questions for you; At day 1, do you mix your entire dough, or just a about 30% of your flour ? Good luck, and please post your results.

Thanks for your thoughts... you know... The thinking behind gradually adding water is unknown for me. It's just the recipe I follow from my first book about bread. Since I don't like doing things just "because" I threw away my old recipe book today, and ordered both Dan Lepard's and Ed Wood's books. After doing more experiments today I have even more questions... This is my routine. On the days I bake I always follow the same recipe. 8'ish, preferment/sponge with a tablespoon or so of starter and equal amounts of flour/water. The flour I use in the sponge will amount to about 30% of my total flour weight. Today for example I used 150g flour in the sponge and 450g total. When i get home from work 8-12 hours later, my pre-ferment should be bubbely and active. Recently It hasn't, and I now figured out that 35-38 degrees is probably not very good for it. Adding more flour and water (of course using my Online Baker's percentage calculator ) to get the values I want. My routine uptil now has been to rise the dough for 1 hour, and proof it for anohter, before cutting and baking. Now my questions begin ; Any answer of any depth on any of them will be warmly recieved. A) What is the purpose of both rise & proof ? Why don't just form the dough and proof it for a longer time. What good does the "knockdown" add ? B) I recently discovered that when I cut my loaves before putting them in, the cuts are not deep enogh and the crust cracks elsewere. Should I cut even deeper ? C) I discovered (to my horror) that I probably have been keeping my sponge/preferment, and dough during rising in 32-35 degrees C. Could this have killed the yeast ? Explaining poor rise ? D) I get REAL poor oven spring. How can I get more? I want more more more ! :-) :-) And today; ... Darn! I forgot the salt... :-) It's a good thing the loaves are only for practice .-) I guess a lot of these questions will be answered when my books arrive as well. In the mean time, please feel free to fill me in ! Rgrds,

I have a question about kneading a dough. The question is basicly Hand kneading versus machine kneading. I have a Kenwood Major kitcen machine with a dedicated kneading tool, and I love it. This is the process I usually use ; Hold back 100g of whater, add all other ingredients. I first Knead slow for 3 minutes. I then Increase the speed, and add a bit of the water. The dough goes wet. I wait until the dough firms up, and add more water. I keep doing this untill all the water is in. (Taking 5 to 10 minutes). Total kneading time is therefore usually from 8-10 minutes. I can easily do the "windowpane" test at that time, and the dough is usually smooth, shiny and elastic. Any Idea on how this machine aproach compares to hand kneading? Does my aproach sound like something that can produce good bread?

You're exactly right! :-) Real fluffy on the inside and hard on the outside. I'd love it if you to dug out that recipe .-) I guess they involve a lot of work in a home kitchen maybe ?

During a recent trip to Paris, me and my wife had to try these enormous Meringues. Any Idea how they are made ? Recipes ? They had coffee, chocolate and carmal flavours. Of course all sampled and found very good .-) Have a look at a picture of it here

More sourdough technical subjects for discussion :-) A) What is the most common cause of low rise during both fermentation, proofing and baking? I made good tasting bread today, but they were a bit on the "compact" side, if you lnow what I mean .-) B) Can someone verify or falsify this statements ? - At 32C the acid producing bacteria are unhappy, the yeast thrives. - At 28C the acid bacteria trive, and the yeast is not so happy. - At 30C this balance is optimal Hence, Higher temperatures during sponge development/fermentation the more rise but less sour bread. Lower temperatures during sponge development/fermentation means less rise but more "sourdough taste".

... For a moment believe that a loaf of bread can be baked in a container not treated with oil or butter. When trying to get it out of the pan, it got torn in two halves. Top half with crust came of, and bottom half stayed in the pan :-)

Sounds really exciting. I'll make sure to try this with a free range chicken or something....

Well... i know a very good reicipe for veal steak that cooks for 24 hours. It's not really all about how much time it gets in the oven. As you probably know, temperature is an important part of the equation. Slow roasting still gives very tender and juicy meat.