Carrot Top

I've been reading all this with interest. And as it was a New Moon yesterday (an auspicious time for beginnings? ) it seemed that now might be a good time to jump in and ask some questions. Close your eyes, if you can - and pretend that you do not have a Chinese grandmother who told of the lore of yin and yang - the daily embroideries woven into a growing design that finally becomes a whole and finished cloth of knowledge. Taste some foods in your mouth, in your mind. Pretend you are a child and it is a pleasant game you are playing with a friend on a lazy afternoon. . . Would you be able to guess correctly which were yin or yang based solely upon their taste? Why or why not? I'd love to hear your thoughts on this. . .

Actually, earlier today I thought to write even further, seanw - making comparisons to how one might have feelings for the French country market that would equate to some other things in life that must be taken quite seriously such as childhood slavery in the chocolate business or abuse of the elderly or even betrayal between marriage partners - therefore allowing that one does of course have the right to feel highly personal in demanding seriousness without any sort of lightness involved about one's own farmer's market every bit as anything else in life, but decided that I'd sort of blow the opportunity for further parrying which of course is undeniably fun.

Oh. Serious and to the point? I thought I was, but apparently whatever it was I said did not meet with your approval. To some people, being serious *may* exclude any other possibilites of ways to look at a thing. It *may* mean looking at and understanding a thing in precisely the way they see it, and in precisely the tone they seek one to see it in. But that is not my way of seriousness. My way of seriousness includes possibilites, potential for further or alternate thought, sometimes (hopefully, even) humor, and - as I am of the human race and therefore am supposed to have a mind and heart (but as I've always said, some do some don't ) my way of seriousness is not as far away from psychology as it is possible to be. Sort of an all-inclusive seriousness, you know. And trust me, there is no thrill for me in thinking of the French markets as something romanticised. When I did my shopping at French markets, I was out to get the best food at the best price, as I am at any market. That there was some theatre there (as some markets are lucky to have) did not do anything for me except amuse me, as it would anywhere else. As you say, there are quality rules and regulations at most good markets (the world round again, not just in France!) and it would seem that if your wish is to prove finally and ultimately that these rules can not, are not, will not, be broken or twisted at all in the French market then it would seem that the best way to do a job of convincing "everyone" of that, so that they all would shut up as you want them to, is to specifically detail those rules and regulations and then show to us all, logically, why it is that France might be the only geographic place on earth that is free of "myth" and "psychology" and the theatre that is involved in selling things. Clear our minds of this nonsensical romanticism! Do it with facts, proofs. ................................................................. Anthropology and romanticism a dangerous mixture? Perhaps. Romanticism is dangerous mixed with anything, isn't it? For one might finally have the curtains of romanticism ripped from one's eyes to see the stark, unadorned "truth" of whatever it is we are looking at. And that might not be too pleasant at the end of the day - the unadorned "truth". Of course, romanticism also has something to do with creating an "interest" in something - it is like a scent of something that allures, something that brings one closer in to look. Curiosity itself is somehow linked with a hint of romanticism - indeed, there might not be anthropologists without the romantic urge to "understand" something different, something from somewhere else. And romanticism is also, at its core, a sort of love. If it can be made to last, I say "All the better." But that is just my view. Something that is "nothing poetical, romanticised, personal, or even remotely related to a myth" as you claim French markets to be. . .might be most people's cup of demitasse. What a shame.

Yet doesn't each country have its romanticised myths? About food, even - and all that goes along with it? It may be that there is an internal myth and an external myth and they might be at odds. But "reality" is something difficult to define down to an exact science, as the field of psychology would have us know, so the myths - all of our narratives - are important. Mostly it is unfortunate when myths (or narrative realties) collide due to what any one person may report as their "truth" (in this case the "truth" of the country markets of France as understood by this author). When ire rises, often reason can go out the door. And I would guess that intent is important to understand, also. I am curious to read the book to see if I can grasp the author's intent. Maybe she just wanted to sell a book. Paying the rent can be a cumbersome part of life sometimes. "Some people" will believe anything, of course. And "some people" will not. That is true of the larger issues of who we all are as countries or people as it is true of what is offered at the market stall. . . in ANY country. "Some people" might believe that as an "American" my own dining habits are composed of grazing here and there, eating only hot dogs, acorns, and hamburgers - frozen convenience foods and large sodas - and of course, with an occasional trip to Babbo where the seam on my dress would be twisted wrong due to the terrible quality of fashion here. And they might be right. But not entirely - not all the time - not even perhaps most of the time? But it would seem to be an excellent opportunity here, in this thread - to challenge any assumptions that may not be correct with clear and accurate, documented information shaped in a persuasive form by whomever wishes to do so - rather than to shut down the discussion. . .(?)

It still happens here, but more and more rarely, in situations such as private corporate dining rooms or private clubs occassionally, where the overall "goal" of the theatre of the meal is to provide the person at table with a sense of being made a "part of the family" so to speak, a sense of being "known" even when they might not have ever met anyone there before. It is a bit of finesse, a reaching towards a time or place (perhaps imaginary? ) where people "did" know each other and trust each other - it is a trick of sorts that can be used to create a heightened intimacy among the diners, for it is personal - a personal touch - an additional touch of "being well cared for". It is quickly going out of style, even in the situations above. Computerized systems are valued for providing accurate service with all the controls that go along with that - all the way down the line to finally inventory controls, which are so very neccesary in operations of places that serve food. And of course there is the matter of staff training. Most people do not approach the job of being a waiter, waitress, or "server" (blech) as if it were going to be their vocation - as more used to in past times. Turnover, lack of desire to commit to this sort of training all have had their effect on hammering away towards the end of this thing. The computerized dupe, or even the piece of paper and the pencil - finally they may be more "accurate", more "in control", more scientific. But boy does it lack in the fine human drama of being looked in the eye, being focused on, and knowing that for that brief moment - something that one has said is being "memorized" by another person. For whatever reason. It is wonderful.

An Ianello table would have a "place for everything and everything in its place", wouldn't it now, Shalmanese.

It's available for immediate delivery from Amazon. I've ordered it.

Agreed, madumbi. And perhaps to extend that further, French markets through French responses to North American responses to French markets! The possibilities are endless, and enormous fun to consider!

As one of the North Americans that has had the temerity to post on this thread, I am glad to have been of assistance in your understandings of "us". I might add that as one of the people who has been read here and therefore assumed to be representative of an overall cultural understanding of "us", that it would also be useful to apply the idea that you espouse in your second sentence to "us" as well as to any book you might choose. "We" are different and fuller in the original text, also. An internet forum does not show either our depth or ultimately probably our seriousness, as it is a tool used as much for entertainment as for any serious intent. The studies or understandings of a culture or people reached here in a few moments of reading will not be an accurate repesentation nor will it ever be acceptable to any serious scholar as there are no proofs of accuracy or "peer review" or anything other than an odd (and in my case, I do *work* on trying to be odd, my dear ) assortment of writings that land on the screen on the computer. If you will read of the markets seriously to understand, then the people that represent cultures perhaps deserve as much also.

The book has used the word "wabi sabi" once, Hiroyuki, and this is in only the first chapter, so it is very likely that by the end of it, there will be more on this - - as you say, language can be used in many ways and it is fascinating to me to see how different languages "work" and what that says about the culture (and taking that a further step along, about the food. ). There are of course, some words and concepts which are not directly translatable from one language/culture to another - and the only way to *really* get a full comprehension of what they mean is to be immersed in the culture for long enough for a new "sense" of things to sink in (or so I believe. . . ). I'll read the thread you noted, and think some about it all - and might come back with more questions. And I've put Japan on my list of Places I Must Visit When These Children Are Older.

The book "Washoku" arrived at my door today and it is truly beautiful. The colors, the photos, the print, the everything! Thank you for the recommendation, Suzy. It also startles me to discover that there is something about this "cookbook" (for I think it is more than that) that is pulling me to read it, really read it - rather than skim it lightly and transparently which is my usual way with cookbooks. This is really a treat. Again, thank you.

What you describe is a common enough situation and it is becoming more and more common as "corporate rules" become more and more (insert descriptive word of your choice here). There's something terribly wrong with this picture as a way of living life, whether it is about a cookie or about (again, insert whatever comes to your mind in this situation here - each person has a different idea of which "rules" they would fear having disrespected and broken ). It is spooky and it is disheartening, and there is no easy answer. And to my mind, it is "not just a cookie". It is about a way of doing things and about a way of being. It is about trust and about truthfulness, it is about taking the time to know the people that are around one and/or in one's care, and it is about people taking responsibility for their own lives in each detail rather than demanding or expecting that someone else (i.e. a corporate or governmental power) will do so for them. When these sorts of rules are commonly in place, it starts to seep into the minds of the people who must follow them or bend them that perhaps none of the rules that are in place are really very "meaningful". It becomes a world where rules are bent more and more often, for there is a creeping sense of disrespect for the entire environment in general. And I can not say that any single time that I personally have tried to have a school rule of this sort be reconsidered, that I have ever been successful. Lots of talk, lots of unhappiness, but often so so so SO very often when it is time to step up to the plate, nobody wants to stand up and do so. ("Oh, dear - I REALLY don't want the - teacher or principal or school board or whomever - to be angry at me! They'll take it out on little Johnny or Susie!!!!") Pah. So we continue to live in an environment where rules are not commonly respected and whatever happens happens irregardless of the rules, but nobody can accurately say what happens or what it specifically is because everyone is PRETENDING to bow to the rules. Think about it. I wish there were a smilie I could use to soften this post to make it more palatable, and I am very sorry but there simply is not.

Good question.

Interesting question. Can one discuss various parts of what a book is purportedly "saying" without having read it? Using a cookbook as an example, is it *fair* to discuss the recipes, to comment on or use one's own background or experience in making those recipes personally *without* having read the specific book? Or is it neccesary to read the book being mentioned before entering into discussion of such. . . This of course can be extended or minimized however one would want. The book speaks about a phenomena. This discussion is not merely about the book but about the phenomena also. Or so I think. If not, then of course much of the discussion here should be knocked right out of the box. Or maybe all of the discussion since the only one that has read the book so far is Mr. Maw. Whew. That *would* make a short thread.

Last time I saw a discussion of this it was focusing on somewhere else - some other country. Rogov was writing of it, and he called the vendors in the market "the most charming liars I've ever had the chance to meet".

Ah, but adorable frauds.

You mean "from out the crik" don't you? What is this "creek" thing?

That's a good gathering of gatherings, Darcie. Are you going to any this year? (It might be an idea to have this discussion on ramps moved to another thread so that others can see this list - Spring is coming SOON! )

The state of West Virginia is famous for ramps and holds an annual festival each spring to celebrate the spring "crop" if you could call it that - spring "gathering" might be a better word?

It seems to me that the greatest challenge you have to face in pulling together this menu, Genny, is to avoid the same chocolate taste running through all the courses. It could work, and be fantastic, if there is a focus put on not only the recipes but the whole - each course showing a differing taste of chocolate. . .chocolate wearing a different dress for each course, if you would. The thought came to me that a tuna carpaccio could work with a chocolate hint of some sort - but I can't "see it" with any of the entrees that have been proposed so far. When are you doing this meal? Does the group tend to work and plan "together" or is it more of a free-form thing where each one does their own thing then carries it to the dinner and it is more of a surprise?

Pear slices as the base for intensely bittersweet chocolate shavings (or alternately made into leaves or something pretty) placed on top of some sort of cheese for an app? Ricotta for the more faint-hearted or some variety of rich blue for the more adventurous? (Need to focus in on the personalities of the specific chocolates and the specific cheeses here to assure a good fit ). Irishgirl, can you describe your method for chocolate demi-glace? It sounds good.

A question: Do you think that it is possible to "sense" the difference between yang and yin foods by the sensory input (i.e. taste ) of the food and the way it makes you feel?

That was an astonishingly wonderful post, Lady T. Hats off and glass raised to you and to all those thoughts! (There is no smilie to exactly represent what I mean, so this: will have to do.)

I can agree with you about tedium. Generally humor will keep me reading much longer than the pompous opinion that goes on for endless paragraphs. And I can agree with you about it seeming ridiculous having to read perspectives of people who are not specifically part of the thing they are talking about. You use "being French" here as an example. More often, to me - as the world of food was my profession, it strikes me the exact same way when people talk about "food" who really, simply eat it. Where DO they get their gall?! It might be the solution to this is to have a quiz at the beginning of each thread about any specific subject. In this one, we could ask exactly how long anyone has spent in France, and it would all be detailed clearly. We might need to vote on whether marriage as exposure was a valid claim to knowing about the culture, though. And the vote on that might take some time to sort out. Yes, indeed. I think we should all pull out our organic market carrots and compare the size and freshness? Or we could all take it all with a grain of psalt. Hand-gathered, of course - to protect the delicate grains.

It's that hint of difference, the expansion of thought that interests me in the idea of talking about both sweet and savory things in the same thread where it can be done. My fear would be that most people think "sweet" when thinking "pastry" so that it might be a misnomer for the thread - someone might miss it? I adore sweet strudels - my two favorites are apple (bien sur, so classic! and never out of place) and a cherry-ricotta strudel - the ricotta flavored with lemon zest , the cherries with a hint of almond extract. Yet wow! Fantastic to hear of SuziSushi's Reuben strudel - how creative! Yum! As much as I adore sweet strudels, the savory ones can really capture my heart. Your spinach and ricotta sounds really great, too. How do you season the spinach? One that I make is a gingered lamb with quinoa, and it is "to die for".