Carrot Top

But of course that still leaves all the posts that speak indirectly of poverty or whatever causes it as one of the many different potential root causes of obesity in our culture, doesn't it. And it leaves in any discussion above of the poor and how they do cope or do not cope, too - with obesity in their particular situation - and it leaves in whatever attitudes one has towards them.

I will go back and delete all the posts I wrote that touched on it, John L.

Edited to remove.

Edited to remove.

While rummaging around in a library once for facts on this and that, two pieces of information came before my eyes on the same day. One was the rates of obesity for the area I lived in. It was high, very high. Another was (this was in a federally-produced document - I am not sure what that says but anyway) the rate of "dissatisfaction with life" in the area I lived in (it was looking at factors such as depression levels, etc. including other things). This was also very high. It was exceptionally high, as a matter of fact. The numbers topped most of the state. The area was rural. The income levels were low, quite low. There was little opportunity for employment in the area. Most people had not gone to college, and at least half did not expect that their children would go to college either. It was a primarily white population. There were federal programs everywhere you might cast your eye in this place. And the grocery stores were few and far between, small and ill-lit, gloomy and poorly stocked. Sometimes it might be that too many apples can upset the applecart, and one straw can break a camel's back in terms of "when" it is that someone does become a long-term obesity subject. It seems that today we are seeing entire families and generations becoming long-term obese. Why do we need to sweep one corner of the room (after coming to a supposed agreement on what corner needs sweeping) when the entire place needs a make-over? Whatever can be done, should be done. And it should be done without finger-pointing for glass houses are everywhere.

Thanks for the link, rjwong. It is fascinating to read of another way of life, another time. The menus and recipes you wrote were great, too, russ. The closest thing to a western cowboy I've ever had the luck to meet was Alan Simpson. When he came to lunch, I decided to write a Wyoming cowboy menu. Here's what we offered that particular cowboy, as printed up on the heavy ivory stock gold-embossed menus laid ever-so-gently at each delicate fine china plate: We started with Snake River Trout, grilled crisp with bacon and scallions. Cowboys need lots of food, so naturally the next course was the traditional Wool with a Handle (gosh I admit it might have had some sort of fancy sauce on it but that was just to give it safe cover in this tough environment) cuddled nicely up to some white beans long-cooked, as you say to a creamy and satisfying consistency. I apologized for not being able to rustle him up a Son of a Bitch Stew for lunch, but times were hard on the dusty trails of Wall Street in terms of finding those particular ingredients. (At least for use in outright and non-metaphorical cookery.) He and the other cowboys all chowed down and right polished off that meal. Nope, nothing wrong with a bit of lore and a good chow down, while keeping in mind's eye the wide open plains. P.S. Loved those last two stories, too, Rogov and sazji!

Judging a book by its cover would be like accepting it at face value, wouldn't it now. No, you are right, Jamie. I prefer to judge a book initially by its codspiece er. . no it might be frontspiece that I mean. It was Jack Katz's codpiece that sat on this book. Here's a bit more about Jack Katz: How Emotions Work. I liked what I saw about him. So my feelings for Jack transferred right onto this book. We'll find out if it's a good fit soon.

I don't think that anything "linked" to this issue is moot at all, really. In front of me are five books, all on obesity, one focusing on it as a health issue, one seeing it as a social and/or cultural issue, another as a mental health issue, another in defense of "fatness", and one specifically speaking of genetics, DNA, and neurology. These books are all from a university library and are used as reference material on the subject. Talk about a confusing issue. And an issue with so many things that potentially contribute to the "cause" of it. I'm happy to have the link to review. I thought your research and findings valid and important. P.S. The reason you didn't see my request for the info before you posted was that I saw your name reading, and did *not* want you to leave the thread without adding what seemed to me to be pertinent information, if this subject is to be looked at in a broad and inclusive fashion. So, serendipity strikes again!

Although I do have an admission to make, though. Generally (as I noted earlier) books that sound as if they were going about the business of defining culture (through foods or whatever) deeply bore me for the most part. The language used is often much too dense for my mind to wish to approach. It was only the insistence that this subject *was* one way and only one way, and the insistence that this thread had "gone on long enough" that reinvigorated my interest in the whole thing at all. Tell me I can not do something? I'm gonna turn right around and head right back to do it, if the reasons behind someone saying "you can't do that" don't make sense to me. I ordered the book once on Amazon. Then cancelled it because I dislike bickering. But as soon as I finish this post, I'm headed back to order it again. The world works in mysterious ways, doesn't it.

I would hope that kpurvis would post a link or some information on the journalistic work she did in inner-city grocery stores. Lots of good information there.

Ptipois - If you believe that I am claiming a right to "subjective re-creation of a social reality" then I have no idea at this point how to respond as that is where the conversation ends as there is no way to counter this, or none that I can think of. If you believe that I was saying that I was the only one here with a heart and a mind, then all I can say is that your understanding of what I was saying is incorrect. This book is worthy of comment because it was published. And it sold. It is again worthy of comment and discussion because it has been re-issued and will again be read. And it will be read in particular by a fairly well-educated group of people, because not everyone goes to the corner bookstore to pick up the latest University of Chicago bit of print. This group of well-educated people is a group that shapes ideas of other people, as these people *are* the ones who teach university level courses and determine reading material for students that will shape the ideas these students "learn" and this group of people also include others interested in culture as a whole who have the means to influence what is read in the media of culture(s). Mr. Maw is an example of this. He, and other editors who have interest in this field will read this book, and they do have the power or authority to send further information on the book and the ideas it proposes, out into the more generalized world of readers that pick up a magazine or a newspaper. I do not think, myself, that this book reflects "only" on France. And that is where our differences of opinion on this may reside. You are defending France. But I am not seeing it as France only or country markets only. I am seeing it as the world, and as the negotiation process. If you do feel that it is France and your culture that we are discussing here - no more no less - then I can see why you would say it is time to "end this misery". But truly, it is NOT France, only France - that is being discussed (again, my opinion). France was the example used in this book. And France, in discussing this book, can be used to reply to the book in whatever way one wishes, I assume. If I wanted to fight the assumptions about France that this book espouses, I would detail, succinctly and without emotion or any personal thoughts included - what rules and regulations *are* in place in France that other places do *not* have. Then I would find the numbers somewhere credible that told of how often these rules and regulations are broken as opposed to other places. That would seem to be a start, to me. I would try to avoid sounding at all subjective or with any personal stake in the subject. But again, I do not think France (alone) needs defense (and I am not so sure that anything needs "defense"), and I think the subject here is larger, and I am quite aware that people have hearts and minds. That is why I like humor (of a sort that is good-natured and that is understood as such by the majority of readers - although there will always be someone who does not "get" whatever humor is displayed in whatever subject and that is a risk that is never avoided in taking the jump towards hopefully eliciting a smile or a laugh with humor) in writings and in ways of thinking, too. P.S. One of the things that has happened during this thread is that I finally clicked onto your blog, which I had not before. I enjoy it very much.

I'm glad you posted the information on the Philly program, Sandy, though - very glad. The Alice Waters program is great to read of, as all these things are. But there is something about the program you posted that seems more "do-able", more real, more possible - to me - when I think of the school systems I've seen. I "bookmarked" the link immediately upon reading of it. It is working, that program, and it is working in an "everyday" sort of world. And the people that made that program work are "everyday" heroes. They have made a big difference in some children's lives. Again, nothing against Alice Waters. She is an astonishing force of a person and she uses that energy in good ways that go way beyond herself. I don't blame you for your "addytood". This is something indeed to be rightfully proud of. Honey, I'd be struttin' with righteous pride, too.

I've been reading all this with interest. And as it was a New Moon yesterday (an auspicious time for beginnings? ) it seemed that now might be a good time to jump in and ask some questions. Close your eyes, if you can - and pretend that you do not have a Chinese grandmother who told of the lore of yin and yang - the daily embroideries woven into a growing design that finally becomes a whole and finished cloth of knowledge. Taste some foods in your mouth, in your mind. Pretend you are a child and it is a pleasant game you are playing with a friend on a lazy afternoon. . . Would you be able to guess correctly which were yin or yang based solely upon their taste? Why or why not? I'd love to hear your thoughts on this. . .

Actually, earlier today I thought to write even further, seanw - making comparisons to how one might have feelings for the French country market that would equate to some other things in life that must be taken quite seriously such as childhood slavery in the chocolate business or abuse of the elderly or even betrayal between marriage partners - therefore allowing that one does of course have the right to feel highly personal in demanding seriousness without any sort of lightness involved about one's own farmer's market every bit as anything else in life, but decided that I'd sort of blow the opportunity for further parrying which of course is undeniably fun.

Oh. Serious and to the point? I thought I was, but apparently whatever it was I said did not meet with your approval. To some people, being serious *may* exclude any other possibilites of ways to look at a thing. It *may* mean looking at and understanding a thing in precisely the way they see it, and in precisely the tone they seek one to see it in. But that is not my way of seriousness. My way of seriousness includes possibilites, potential for further or alternate thought, sometimes (hopefully, even) humor, and - as I am of the human race and therefore am supposed to have a mind and heart (but as I've always said, some do some don't ) my way of seriousness is not as far away from psychology as it is possible to be. Sort of an all-inclusive seriousness, you know. And trust me, there is no thrill for me in thinking of the French markets as something romanticised. When I did my shopping at French markets, I was out to get the best food at the best price, as I am at any market. That there was some theatre there (as some markets are lucky to have) did not do anything for me except amuse me, as it would anywhere else. As you say, there are quality rules and regulations at most good markets (the world round again, not just in France!) and it would seem that if your wish is to prove finally and ultimately that these rules can not, are not, will not, be broken or twisted at all in the French market then it would seem that the best way to do a job of convincing "everyone" of that, so that they all would shut up as you want them to, is to specifically detail those rules and regulations and then show to us all, logically, why it is that France might be the only geographic place on earth that is free of "myth" and "psychology" and the theatre that is involved in selling things. Clear our minds of this nonsensical romanticism! Do it with facts, proofs. ................................................................. Anthropology and romanticism a dangerous mixture? Perhaps. Romanticism is dangerous mixed with anything, isn't it? For one might finally have the curtains of romanticism ripped from one's eyes to see the stark, unadorned "truth" of whatever it is we are looking at. And that might not be too pleasant at the end of the day - the unadorned "truth". Of course, romanticism also has something to do with creating an "interest" in something - it is like a scent of something that allures, something that brings one closer in to look. Curiosity itself is somehow linked with a hint of romanticism - indeed, there might not be anthropologists without the romantic urge to "understand" something different, something from somewhere else. And romanticism is also, at its core, a sort of love. If it can be made to last, I say "All the better." But that is just my view. Something that is "nothing poetical, romanticised, personal, or even remotely related to a myth" as you claim French markets to be. . .might be most people's cup of demitasse. What a shame.

Yet doesn't each country have its romanticised myths? About food, even - and all that goes along with it? It may be that there is an internal myth and an external myth and they might be at odds. But "reality" is something difficult to define down to an exact science, as the field of psychology would have us know, so the myths - all of our narratives - are important. Mostly it is unfortunate when myths (or narrative realties) collide due to what any one person may report as their "truth" (in this case the "truth" of the country markets of France as understood by this author). When ire rises, often reason can go out the door. And I would guess that intent is important to understand, also. I am curious to read the book to see if I can grasp the author's intent. Maybe she just wanted to sell a book. Paying the rent can be a cumbersome part of life sometimes. "Some people" will believe anything, of course. And "some people" will not. That is true of the larger issues of who we all are as countries or people as it is true of what is offered at the market stall. . . in ANY country. "Some people" might believe that as an "American" my own dining habits are composed of grazing here and there, eating only hot dogs, acorns, and hamburgers - frozen convenience foods and large sodas - and of course, with an occasional trip to Babbo where the seam on my dress would be twisted wrong due to the terrible quality of fashion here. And they might be right. But not entirely - not all the time - not even perhaps most of the time? But it would seem to be an excellent opportunity here, in this thread - to challenge any assumptions that may not be correct with clear and accurate, documented information shaped in a persuasive form by whomever wishes to do so - rather than to shut down the discussion. . .(?)

It still happens here, but more and more rarely, in situations such as private corporate dining rooms or private clubs occassionally, where the overall "goal" of the theatre of the meal is to provide the person at table with a sense of being made a "part of the family" so to speak, a sense of being "known" even when they might not have ever met anyone there before. It is a bit of finesse, a reaching towards a time or place (perhaps imaginary? ) where people "did" know each other and trust each other - it is a trick of sorts that can be used to create a heightened intimacy among the diners, for it is personal - a personal touch - an additional touch of "being well cared for". It is quickly going out of style, even in the situations above. Computerized systems are valued for providing accurate service with all the controls that go along with that - all the way down the line to finally inventory controls, which are so very neccesary in operations of places that serve food. And of course there is the matter of staff training. Most people do not approach the job of being a waiter, waitress, or "server" (blech) as if it were going to be their vocation - as more used to in past times. Turnover, lack of desire to commit to this sort of training all have had their effect on hammering away towards the end of this thing. The computerized dupe, or even the piece of paper and the pencil - finally they may be more "accurate", more "in control", more scientific. But boy does it lack in the fine human drama of being looked in the eye, being focused on, and knowing that for that brief moment - something that one has said is being "memorized" by another person. For whatever reason. It is wonderful.

An Ianello table would have a "place for everything and everything in its place", wouldn't it now, Shalmanese.

It's available for immediate delivery from Amazon. I've ordered it.

Agreed, madumbi. And perhaps to extend that further, French markets through French responses to North American responses to French markets! The possibilities are endless, and enormous fun to consider!

As one of the North Americans that has had the temerity to post on this thread, I am glad to have been of assistance in your understandings of "us". I might add that as one of the people who has been read here and therefore assumed to be representative of an overall cultural understanding of "us", that it would also be useful to apply the idea that you espouse in your second sentence to "us" as well as to any book you might choose. "We" are different and fuller in the original text, also. An internet forum does not show either our depth or ultimately probably our seriousness, as it is a tool used as much for entertainment as for any serious intent. The studies or understandings of a culture or people reached here in a few moments of reading will not be an accurate repesentation nor will it ever be acceptable to any serious scholar as there are no proofs of accuracy or "peer review" or anything other than an odd (and in my case, I do *work* on trying to be odd, my dear ) assortment of writings that land on the screen on the computer. If you will read of the markets seriously to understand, then the people that represent cultures perhaps deserve as much also.

The book has used the word "wabi sabi" once, Hiroyuki, and this is in only the first chapter, so it is very likely that by the end of it, there will be more on this - - as you say, language can be used in many ways and it is fascinating to me to see how different languages "work" and what that says about the culture (and taking that a further step along, about the food. ). There are of course, some words and concepts which are not directly translatable from one language/culture to another - and the only way to *really* get a full comprehension of what they mean is to be immersed in the culture for long enough for a new "sense" of things to sink in (or so I believe. . . ). I'll read the thread you noted, and think some about it all - and might come back with more questions. And I've put Japan on my list of Places I Must Visit When These Children Are Older.

The book "Washoku" arrived at my door today and it is truly beautiful. The colors, the photos, the print, the everything! Thank you for the recommendation, Suzy. It also startles me to discover that there is something about this "cookbook" (for I think it is more than that) that is pulling me to read it, really read it - rather than skim it lightly and transparently which is my usual way with cookbooks. This is really a treat. Again, thank you.

What you describe is a common enough situation and it is becoming more and more common as "corporate rules" become more and more (insert descriptive word of your choice here). There's something terribly wrong with this picture as a way of living life, whether it is about a cookie or about (again, insert whatever comes to your mind in this situation here - each person has a different idea of which "rules" they would fear having disrespected and broken ). It is spooky and it is disheartening, and there is no easy answer. And to my mind, it is "not just a cookie". It is about a way of doing things and about a way of being. It is about trust and about truthfulness, it is about taking the time to know the people that are around one and/or in one's care, and it is about people taking responsibility for their own lives in each detail rather than demanding or expecting that someone else (i.e. a corporate or governmental power) will do so for them. When these sorts of rules are commonly in place, it starts to seep into the minds of the people who must follow them or bend them that perhaps none of the rules that are in place are really very "meaningful". It becomes a world where rules are bent more and more often, for there is a creeping sense of disrespect for the entire environment in general. And I can not say that any single time that I personally have tried to have a school rule of this sort be reconsidered, that I have ever been successful. Lots of talk, lots of unhappiness, but often so so so SO very often when it is time to step up to the plate, nobody wants to stand up and do so. ("Oh, dear - I REALLY don't want the - teacher or principal or school board or whomever - to be angry at me! They'll take it out on little Johnny or Susie!!!!") Pah. So we continue to live in an environment where rules are not commonly respected and whatever happens happens irregardless of the rules, but nobody can accurately say what happens or what it specifically is because everyone is PRETENDING to bow to the rules. Think about it. I wish there were a smilie I could use to soften this post to make it more palatable, and I am very sorry but there simply is not.

Good question.