Carrot Top

I'll tell you where I WON'T land. Which is doing ANYTHING at all with computers, having tried to copy and paste and quote and write things for the past umpteenth amount of time in response and then erasing or losing it all. In the workplace, I was startled upon entering it to discover that one of the usual ways that people got promoted was by others getting fired. Even if you are just there are doing a good job, you might inadvertantly do harm to another. Would this then be considered 'your fault'...or would it be 'their own fault' or would it be 'the way things are's fault'....? Or nobody's fault... I am not sure 'where I'll land'. Or really, I must say that I AM landed. I have been raising my children alone 'unmarried' for three years now. But I must say that I was raising my children alone when I was married, too. Bottom line, though, having had a 'good career history' will not only move me in directions I would like to go but also profits my children in ways both economic and 'psychological'.

I was refering to this statement in my previous post. ← Thank you. I did not focus in on this within the body of the original post.

Performance art. Can I be part of it as a dancing okra pod? Please?

Forgive me for 'bumping this up' from the middle of the thread...for still I would love to hear some thoughts on this....

You are right, Michael. The world is full of people in different sorts of circumstances with different support systems (or not) and different ways of succeeding. The drum that it seems I must keep drumming....for that is what is hitting me, personally, as important...is twofold. First, that it is not 'bad' to either aim for success or greatness, as a woman, instead of putting one's family first. It may be different. It may be even very novel, in that in previous times women had no choice but to put their family first for if they didn't, they would not only be socially castigated but also economically disabled, since there were less opportunities for decent work at decent pay. There is an assumption here (that I read in running through this thread...very rarely, but I continue to read it) first of all, that women WILL have a family to care for. That is an incorrect assumption. Many women do not marry in today's world. They work. More and more women are not having children....married or not. Therefore it is to be assumed that the 'family' they would need take their major time to care for would be a grown man. And there may be women that live a life of the mind rather than a life of one who chooses to nurture others. Why shouldn't they? I keep reading this sense of 'naughty, naughty...this isn't what women are SUPPOSED to do'...and I am sorry, but it makes me sick to my stomach. Again, not only for me...but for the young women who ARE entering the workplace now...who ARE expected to have careers or work that defines them outside the home. College-age women today do not enter into the world of work thinking "I am going to get married and my husband will take care of me". And college-age men do not expect to have to support a woman who might, through some 'fluke', want to stay at home and be a homemaker. Therefore, if these women are entering into the workplace, they should not be entering into the workplace with a 'This is not REALLY the best thing I could do...to have a family is better' attitude. There are no guarantees of 'family'. Why should these women have placed upon them a thought process that is semi-self-limiting? They are not 'naughty' nor wrong in seeking success. Second...again...the idea that women are supposed to 'play nice' like we do with dolls. Please. Do I need to go into this at all? So here we are, in the workplace for that is where we are now. The workplace is competitive. Yet we are supposed to be 'nice' and sort of floating smiling graciously above it all? Give me a break. Again, to me it seems a dead-ringer for growing a losing team. And we are responsible for ourselves. Nobody else is. ......................................... Finally, back to the artist thing. Again...my own strong reaction to a tone that I was picking up in certain posts. I won't argue certain artists and what they did or certain chefs and what they did. But if the work of someone does not get out the door and seen, nobody will be able to appreciate it. Sure, absolute schlock can be promoted (and guess what...sold, too... and that is the public's choice) but if there is good work, or even great work, that is being done...it must get out into the world somehow for others to be able to sample its offerings. Therefore, again, I say that although this side of 'art' in any metier may be the work of a merchant rather than an artist, somehow it is part of the quotient. Since it is part of the quotient...it would seem to me to be important to have it somewhere there on the 'to-do' list in some form. And again, women have not taken up this act of saying 'What I've got is really good, take a look' as much as men have...for whatever reason, and this places them at a disadvantage in the jungle that is called life. ........................................................ In my own life, if I had been the sort of person that had waited for someone to help me...or had decided to smile gently and always be 'nice'....or if I had decided that it was not 'seemly' or that it was distasteful to stand up and say 'I can do this and I can do it well'....well. Surely I would be poor, financially. Likely I would never have had any chance at many sorts of success, including a professional one...and really...well. Plain facts, I might have been dead. This is a wonderful world with lots of great things in it, but it is also a dangerous and hateful one. If women are going to 'succeed', they need not be dragged down by thoughts of playing 'nice'. Guys....generally aren't. The thought pattern does not enter their mind. It is 'Let's play and see who wins!' Yeah...more than my two cents. Because it matters.

Thanks, albiston...can't wait to hear. My usual tactic (when visiting somewhere I've never been) is to spend about half the time doing what I should be doing...seeing the 'important' sights...and the rest of the time tucking a good map into my bag and wandering way out of range. This has proved both 'good' and 'not so good' in the past, but always interesting. Florence was very good for me in this way...fantastic home-style trattorias found way out in the middle of nowhere...and of course Paris but less so with the food but moreso in understanding the true-ness of the place...which is not all Champs-Elysees nor Montremarte which was where I lived. Mexico too...I remember getting caught in the middle of a cobblestone street full of rampaging pigs being driven home by some young children...hilarious and fascinating for all of us. Well...maybe not for the pigs.... Sometimes even getting lost is okay....just adds to the adventure.... So tell all...Oh! I have a question. You live in Germany I think? How do you think the Italian Christmas for a visitor (or even for inhabitants) compares to a German or Austrian Christmas? Are there Christmas markets and such lining the streets with lengths of ribbons and tree decorations and all tucked into boxes gleaming for sale?

Usually make a stock from the ham hocks (or sometimes a whole small shank end, they are very inexpensive and meaty) in cold water with aromatics and herbs raised slowly to simmering for several hours, allow to chill overnight, remove fat then continue with recipe using the stock as base for the soup.

My own opinion is that there is such an animal called a 'great chef'. And to make one, it takes a peculiar and individual blend of enormous talent, and also a different and special way of looking at things. Then it takes the capability and time put in to be able to transform that talent and artistic urge into a reality that others can enjoy. Although cuisine or cookery is a much more plastic art than other forms of artistic expression, in that it is so much more subject to temporal realities, it can still be identified and assessed and qualified in the same critical ways that other arts can be, and have been previously. In each category of art that I can think of...I'll use visual arts and literature as examples...there are those working within the metiers who are considered either craftspersons or artists. And then there are the 'great artists' or the 'great writers'. There is a magical spark within these people that reaches out and touches others in a special unidentifiable (though it can be categorized and endlessly critically discussed...please pick up a copy of Artforum for proof) way. It could be that there are many 'great' undiscovered artists, writers, and chefs. But the ones we know of, that we consider great, that I can think of, have worked to the edge of their powers in the pursuit of their vision. They don't just talk about it. They don't just set aside a certain number of hours a day to do it. They live it. Even the great artists and writers of the past and present can be looked at to see if they just sat around and got discovered. Usually you will see that they did not. They tried to gain validity for their expressions, both financial validity and critical validity. All the great artists and writers of the world did not sit in a corner and say, 'I am great, but so what...it is only important to me...I don't care what the world thinks.' The reason we even have names and faces for these people is that they got out there and did it, and self-promoted and went at it. Why should it be any different in the culinary arts? Why should we assume that there are different perogatives in terms of the use of the word 'great' for us? That the reporting media seems to be relentlessly tacky and that it seems to confuse the issues often is also something that always existed, throughout history. It seems worse now, because this is the media age and it is a virtual daily ongoing onslaught of opinion and fact being printed, viewed, and read. Again...as always, it is the public hunger for entertainment that creates this media monster...and it is the public hunger for someone to idolize that creates...idols. But the great chefs are out there. They exist, and what they do does what any other art can do if you take the time to listen...it inspires.

....Who doth ambition shun, And loves to live i' the sun, Seeking the food he eats, And pleas'd with what he gets. ....I met a fool i' the forest, A motley fool. ....And then he drew a dial from his poke, And, looking on it with lack-luster eye, Says very wisely, "It is ten o'clock; Thus we may see," quoth he, "how the world wags." ....And so, from hour to hour we ripe and ripe, And then from hour to hour we rot and rot, And thereby hangs a tale. As You Like It

I did not see anywhere in this thread that the years estimated that we have to 'put in' is three to five years.... But it would be interesting to see where it was noted, if you could point it out... Would also like to know a little bit more about why you believe that in three to five years one has not paid any dues...and also perhaps a little bit more about your background as a Pastry Chef. Is this your original career choice? What brought you to the kitchen in the first place? What were any other career(s) you have had...and do you feel that you were successful in them, and if so, why did you choose to make a career change? How many years have you worked in the kitchen in a professional position? Do you lead other people? What has your training been composed of in preparation for this position? Do you feel that you are competent and fully capable in the tasks at which your particular position demands? How about promotion and growing up and out? Is that something you personally like the idea of, or is that something that does not personally appeal to you?

Absolutely. Couldn't agree with you more. The only exception I would say that strikes me is where you write 'If women are not given head chef positions'. Of course you may not have written it to be taken in the way as I am reading it...but I must say that people who have power do not 'give' anybody anything. The people have to earn it, ask for it, sometimes fight for it. The reasons are complex as to why an equal number of women as men are not at top levels in many fields, including the issue of how 'promotability' is defined by the ones in charge of it. Are women underdogs in a sense in this situation? Less so than in previous times, certainly, but still they seem to be. Underdogs are not given stuff...they have to be canny and determined and persistent and smart to get equal footing. Overall, it looks like the underdog is moving forward, to me.

There's an old joke that ends with the line 'It's not the principle, it's the ten cents'...I wish I could remember it.... Hmmm. I wonder. Don't you think that sour grapes taste worse to those that are tasting them than to those they are trying to spit them upon? Let them chew what they want...

Yeah...well you never know. Could just be me that needs the fire in the belly just to get going, so I talk it up.... It was interesting to feel the sense of your comfort level in the kitchen and still, after all this time working there, your intense interest in and love for it. Another comment stuck in my mind...about the management styles (perhaps) of women wherein they may tend to lead and nurture a 'team' rather than direct a bunch of grunts...leading to women's kitchens being less 'iconic'. Hmmm. Lots of things to think about, from your post...thanks.

I just happened upon this thread while scanning through 'New Posts'. Sitting here reading, my heart is pounding at not only the intensely visceral descriptions of foods and the photos...both which have a sense of reality and connection which (unfortunately) I rarely see here in the US...but the richness of cultural histories and the stories and symbolic rituals that are threaded through the tastings of food and celebration of life, with humor and such deep knowledge of it all...is simply...staggeringly wonderful, for lack of a better word. So happy to have stumbled upon this thread. Will carry thoughts of it, and all of you, through the day.

Sorry to go off-topic, but it seems to me this thread should be merged with the 'Dealbreakers--' thread for it seems quite telling, these soups, and quite wonderful too. I am sure that every single (in every sense of the word) person could find someone they could adore simply from these posts.

It's a great start. Congratulations to you all up there. Hope it's catching...we could use that too.

Yeah...well, if one is going to do ridiculous things in life, they at least should make a good story. And hopefully they should make some money, too. Back to the original conversation...here are some more thoughts that maybe someone has input on. --Is it the spark of talent that people see and respond to that makes a 'great chef'? --How are the European and American support systems and critical coding systems different for women chefs, if indeed they are? --How does it happen that chefs are subject to such lionization today? --Does a 'great chef' need to have business skills...or do they need to have a committed partner that does?

I 'sort of' fell into the industry by accident, but not really. I had decided it was time to go back to work after a brief 'time off' that was spent being newly married and working on the restoration of the 'classic' old wooden yacht that we lived on. But for at least three years, I had been obsessively reading and cooking to the point of really thinking about not too much else. So when the ad for the job appeared, it seemed heavensent. There was nothing about cooking that I did not want to know. It was what I did with all my time and thoughts. Was I disillusioned? The first day I worked in the kitchen I made a linzertorte. It was so hot that the dough was melting faster than I could work with it. The other cooks were all guys, some had gone to the CIA and were openly contemptuous of me. My feet felt like they were made of blown-up hot rubber halfway through the day. The chef did not come out to show me how to work the larger equipment, so I had to swallow my pride and ask the guys. They were happily snotty to show me. There was some batter that I made in the large mixer. After struggling to even get the bowl off the hooks, I realized my arms were not going to be able to lift it to pour. The guys were studiously avoiding looking at me while they snuck glances out of the corners of their eyes. I got pissed off. So I hauled the thing onto my shoulder and strutted across the kitchen to the pastry table, all 5'2 ninety-eight pounds of me (that was then, pre-children) and carefully poured the f'ing thing into the sheetpans. Halfway through the day, I was so physically and emotionally tired I went into the only private place which was a small dirty bathroom for the staff use. I laid a tea towel on the floor and laid on it, staring up at the underside of the rusty disgusting sink with my back squooshed up against the even filthier toilet base. Stayed there for ten minutes then went back to work. Was I disillusioned? You betcha. But more than that, I wanted to cook, and I wanted to be in that kitchen. So I went back, and gradually earned some sort of grudging respect from the guys. They had to give me that respect in a way, for the pastries I made from my own recipes (the previous pastry chef had used mixes and cans of glop) started to become 'known' and made the restaurant a destination place for dessert. There were many other times during this process over the years of disillusionment. One major one was when I became the Executive Chef (this is much later and in a different place) and was given a staff of mostly men that totally resented me. It took a long time and really a lot of inner struggle and outer struggle to win them over. Some, obviously, were easier than others. One can't just say that they all don't want a woman to succeed, some are grudgingly happy to see when a woman can walk in and do well. One of those guys took me about three years to win over. He persisted in playing underhanded games, persisted in finding odd ways to challenge me...but it finally happened that he gave in. How and why? He started yammering at me endlessly at the top of his lungs about how things 'should be' and I walked up to him and pushed my face towards him and said (in a certain tone) "The things you are talking about are your problems. You take care of them. I will not let your problems be my problems" and I walked (or rather stalked you might say) away.This again, could have been a scenario that would happen with a male Executive Chef...it is not always gender-specific.(The guy turned out to be one of the most helpful cooks in the place after that.) The hardest part for me, is that at first I wanted to be liked. I wanted the staff to like me and to want to work with me and do good things. That...way of thinking did not get the job done, though. There is much advantage taken of bosses who want to be 'liked' in any industry. Someone...a higher up manager...said one day to me...(he was a guy) "Don't worry if they like you. Worry if they respect you. For out of respect can come love." That worked for me. Moving on to less time in the kitchen, more demands in administrative and other tasks. I enjoyed growing in these ways. And for me personally, I realized that my 'gift' was not to be either a technically or creatively 'great' chef. My gift was the ability to organize, operate, train, motivate in the back of house...and it turned out I had a gift of making guests feel...very welcome and cared for when they came to table. I studied the people who came to table and was very interested in making them feel well cared for, both by showing them care in attentions to what their menu choices were to be and by designing special menus for many special functions. It seemed to me that there were people in the kitchen who could actually be greater 'chefs' than me, ultimately, so I moved up and promoted them forward...including moving out of the title of Executive Chef. They still kept calling me that, though...even though I had moved onto other things...but the guy I'd promoted didn't care a whole lot, for he knew I would keep on moving up and out and eventually he'd stand solo. It finally came to the point where my job was pure corporate life. Responsibilites of budgets, planning, the annual cut-backs, and of course the usual 75% of any high-level corporate job....politics. I didn't like it. At all. So that, was the end of that. I quit and moved to Paris and blew all my profit share money on good Reblochon and the occasional Poulet de Bresse. And on and on...and here we are. I've rattled off my story because I know you do love a good story, arielle...and that you will not give up till you have it. I hope your questions have been answered.

Inflict away, arielle. You might even see a silent giggle coming from me....

pidge, thank you for telling us of your experiences. I do agree with you that a woman boss can be perhaps more demanding than a man sometimes. Do you still enjoy the work? Which is the part of it that you enjoy the most (besides a paycheck, which is a good thing to have )? Was there ever a time when you said "Forget this, I won't do this"...but then sort of went through an inner trial by fire and decided to stick to it?

arielle....There is so much to think about both on the subject of 'great woman chefs' and just plain men and women interacting. The men have anger about certain things...and certainly so do we. I must tell you though, that anger kills. I saw it eat my mother alive, all in the name of 'Feminism'. She never managed to accomplish the professional goals she set for herself...and also never managed to find her way out into the world of friendships and relationships through her rage. Anger kills. From the inside out. Hesitating to even hint at a word that has religious connotations here, I will say clearly that this word I use now is not used in any religious way...But anger is The Devil. So when I do get angry (as every human being on earth does, and many and often for good reason)...I have to change it into something else internally. I have to get the best of it rather than it get the best of me. Anger, internalized, and not re-built into something else, of course leads to depression. And one can not move if afflicted by this disease. One withers away into a little lump of puddled misery. There are still a lot of things to talk about on this thread....there is a lot of all categories of both external and subliminal stuff going on. And it is challenging to us all. I hope we make it through carrying more out than we brought in with all our thoughts and feelings. As you said before...one step at a time. And maybe a glass of mulled wine inbetween, now and again....

Yes, Melissa. In agreeement. And thank you, Squeat, for a really nice list there. My horoscope warns of disharmonious lack of agreement today (yeah, that's how it was phrased...a double whammy), but so what. You can't escape your horoscope, now, can you.... So I'll post and wait to see if I've said anything terribly wrong... What is a chef in the first place? Someone who cooks professionally. To take it a bit further, the difference between the term 'cook' and 'chef' is the implication that a chef leads others in the kitchen and assumes responsibility for the final product while having the authority to make decisions that will define and/or create what form the final product actually will take. Besides the capacity for physical strength and stamina which we've discussed, there are the other things that go into being a chef that define that professional title. Those characteristics exist in differing levels in different people. To my mind, they break into four main categories. 1.Technical skill and interest. There must be a certain level of technical skill to start with, but certain individuals excel at this. They have a focus on the foodstuffs and how they interact in a scientific way with each other, with heat, with cold, with timing, with differing methods of putting together....etc etc. 2. Creativity. There must be some of this in any chef just to manage a kitchen in a practical manner. Food is a perishable item...it is alive....and based on what the practical demands of useage are, there will be some foods that will be left over at the end of the day that must be creatively used to make something appealing and delicious, unless one wants to just toss them...which is not good for keeping a business financially afloat. The only way one can avoid this is to have such a tightly knit production schedule that most of the foodstuffs purchased would be approaching the taste and holding ability of cardboard. 3. Knowledge of what the person at table is likely to be interested in eating. Interest in making the intellectual or emotional connection with the food produced, that will lead to the diner's satisfaction. 4. Management and teaching skills. The title of chef holds the notion that one is going to be in charge of others besides themselves. There has to be some ability in training, mentoring, leading, teaching or the staff will be sitting around lost and wondering what to do...and the chef will be unable to accomplish the translation of his/her ideas out to the food at table. Administrative skills should be added in here too, for food orders must be placed based on useage requirements, inventories must be taken and understood, standardized recipes created and written out to provide consistency...(if there are any amount of staff at all or any amount of staff turnover at all either...), scheduling of staff based on production must be done correctly along with of course, daily production schedules for all stations that exist in the kitchen. That's what I see, that defines 'chef' in a basic professional sense....not adding on the idea of 'great' or even 'successful'.

Well...if we can agree to agree that The American Heritage Dictionary might have some useful definitions...what the heck. Disagree if you want. Here are the definitions anyway. Great 1. Very large in size. 2. Larger in size than others of the same kind. 3. Large in quantity or number. 4. Extensive in time or distance. 5. Remarkable or outstanding in magnitude . 6. Of outstanding significance or importance. 7. Chief or principal. 8. Superior in quality or character; noble . 9. Powerful, influential . 10. Eminent, distinguished . 11. Grand, aristocratic. I italicized the definitions that seemed meaningful, to me. The others were amusing, though. Chef A cook, especially the chief cook of a large kitchen staff (French, short for chef de cuisine, head of the kitchen). Woman I think this can be figured out. I like dictionaries.

More than a bit of luck, but they say one can make their own luck.... And more than a bit of understanding of what the public is looking for. This is the restaurant business after all...as you know very well, arielle...as you end the week and have to balance the books. It must be what the public really wants, or that food is going to be sitting in the kitchen getting cold as you stare at it with no customers lining up for it... And if we look at the making of a great meal as 'art', then it is important to remember that it is not an art that is easily translated into something that will last for all time, like a painting or a sculpture. The food on the plate is perfect at one exact moment. It is eaten, then it is gone, but for a memory. So to hope for 'greatness' through an idea of food rather than a reality of food would seem simply moot. But of course that notion is up for critical comment, and I daresay it could be articulated by someone that the idea is the imperative item....

It was meant to be read in a humorous way, Michael. Said in a mincing, defiant tone as I threw my long hair back and sort of wiggled my head and shoulders. Low humour. Sorry, I needed a bit of it.