liuzhou

There is more on Saint Delia here on the Guardian site today to mark her 80th birthday.. And here's my daughter's copy of her Complete Cookery Course. It was originally published in three volumes. This was the first collected edition. Whether I gave it to her or she bought it, neither of us remember.

I definitely got served when I was 15, but I was (still am) quite tall. I don't recall ever vomiting in a pub, but then again, if I did there's a good chance I wouldn't remember. When I was studying for my master's degree, I had a part time job leading tourists on a literary pub crawl around London, particularly Bloomsbury. Virginia Woolf, Shelley and Dickens were my neighbours along with many lesser figures. I never drank on those crawls, maintaining a professional standard. Actually, I was never much of a beer drinker until I came to China and couldn't easily get anything else I was prepared to drink.

11C. Two Pints of Lager and a Packet of Crisps, Please Image: Public Domain As in many countries, the sale of alcohol is strictly controlled in the UK, particularly in terms of opening hours for pubs, etc. National alcohol regulations had first been introduced in the late 18th century as a reaction to the notorious gin addiction problem as depicted by William Hogarth in the famous Gin Lane print of 1751, actually one of a pair, the other being Beer Street, reproduced above. However, it was the outbreak of Word War One in 1914 that had the longest lasting impact on British society. The 1914 government was concerned that wide availability of alcohol would hamper the war effort and slow down production of armaments etc. Pub opening times were restricted to 12 noon to 2:40 pm for lunch, then they were permitted to open again at 6:30 pm before closing at 10:30 pm. These laws were strictly enforced. With only minor changes along the way, these wartime restrictions remained in force right into the 21st century. When I was 18 (the legal age for drinking in pubs then and now) and had my first (legal) pint in a British pub in the late 1960s, the opening hours in England and Wales were 11 am to 11 pm (11 am to 10 pm in Scotland) and this remained the case for years to come. Sign in Scottish pub, 2019. My image. These restrictions hit a snag in the 1970s and 80s, when a new-found affluence among the young, coupled with other social changes, led to a toxic culture in which young men (mostly) developed a habit of spending time in the pub, drinking more frantically as closing time approached knowing their supply would be cut off at precisely 11 pm. At 11, they poured into the streets, drunk and often aggressive, still wanting more to drink. The only way to get more drink was to head to a restaurant, where different rules applied. So long as you bought a meal, alcohol could be served at virtually any time. The cheapest restaurants still open tended to be Indian or Chinese. So, in they would pile, demanding lager¹ and the hottest curries their low self-esteem thought they had to eat to prove their virility. Often while racially abusing the staff and upsetting other customers. Then vomiting, usually outside in the street as they left, but occasionally not getting that far. Lager 2021 (Five minutes ago!) - My image It was with this in mind, no doubt, that partly inspired British comedy scriptwriter John Sullivan, creator of Britain’s favourite (still) situation comedy “Only Fools and Horses” to have the show’s lead character Derek Trotter, better known as Del Boy, played by David Jason, say in one 1983 episode “I thought I might go down and have a couple of light ales² down the Nag's Head, and then go on to the Star of Bengal for a Ruby Murray.³” The “beer followed by curry and more beer” culture was nailed, although in the sitcom without the racism, violence or vomit. Not everyone drank lager. I remember being in one Indian restaurant near London, sometime in the 1980s and seeing one young man drinking bad white wine – by the pint glass! Scotland escaped the worst of what became known as the “lager lout” culture by repealing the World War One laws in 1976, effectively allowing pubs to open any time they liked. Few still stayed open after midnight, but there were few signs of the drunken chaos more conservative elements had predicted. England and Wales delayed real reform until 2005, bringing it more in line with Scotland. So pubs today can legally open 24 hours a day, although very few do. Most still close around midnight. Northern Ireland licensing laws remain very restricted. Many restaurants dealt with the lager lout problem simply by raising their standards and offering more inventive dishes at higher prices, while dropping the vindaloos and especially the phal they had previously invented to attract business. They no longer wanted that business, so they priced them out of the market. I won’t say that the old style Indian restaurants have disappeared entirely; nor have the idiots. But things have definitely improved for everyone: the restaurants, the sensible customers, the police. And for Indian food in Britain ¹ British lager tends to be stronger than many American lagers. The lager of choice for many of the louts was Carlsberg Special Brew, at that time 9% by volume. (It has since been reduced to 7.5%) ² Del Boy never drank light ales; his preference was for outrageously pretentious cocktails. He is just using this here as a form of metonymy to refer to alcoholic drinks in general. ³ John Sullivan created this example of London rhyming slang specifically for the episode and it caught on, as did many of his other linguistic inventions used by the show’s characters. There are thirteen phrases in the OED which he either invented or popularised. Finally, here is a famous example of what closing time in a British pub was like! Recorded in 1980.

Oh yes, They are being sold in China. In supermarkets and convenience stores, mainly. Also, online.

Actually, the Chinese brands are more normal. These "seemingly unfathomable" types are all Lay's, an American company owned by Pepsico.

Certainly not! That was just my intro to the topic. My two kids, born, bred and still in Britain, were always and are still adventurous eaters, but I'd heard and read parents talk about difficulties with their children, although I never thought about it much. Then, one day I realised I wasn't hearing those stories any more. The only significant thing that had changed was I'd moved to China, so I started loking closer. I am mainly just interested in exploring whether or not there are cultural differences in children's food choices and aversions. But it's not my thread. I just started it. Whatever direction it goes in, so long as it stays on topic, is up to everyone else. In fact, I look forward to it widening. I lived in Italy for a couple of years, many years ago, and would love to hear about your experience. This topic wasn't something on my radar back then.

It's been 38℃ / 100℉ for most of the day. Now it's 9 pm and 35℃ / 95℉. So, this made for a quick, simple but satisfying and tasty dish. Followed by a bowl of cherries and some Marvin Gaye. Orzo with squid, shrimp. snow pea slivers, garlic, ginger, chilli and white wine.

Lay's China seems to be on a roll. I spotted these today. Never seen them before. Rich Chestnut Flavor This one baffles me. It reads 'Mouthwatering Chinese Bayberry Flavor', and the red berries portrayed are bayberries, but berry chips? I love bayberries in season - sweet but also slightly sour. Didn't buy these. Rich Sea Salt and Black Pepper Flavor Another oddity. The nearest I can translate is 'Flower Steeped Rice Wine Flavor. No thanks! Refreshing Lime Flavor.

Indeed, but I'll just add that the paper itself admits its data is flawed.

Yes, the link you provided is not to a Chinese source, but where did they get it? As they say Everything about the paper (language, layout etc. ) tells me it is Chinese in origin. In fact, the study was funded by a Chinese dairy company and carried out at Chinese universities.

I started the other topic in the vain hope that people putting posts here (and elewhere) about children's food choices might go there instead of a topic which is supposedly about non-dessert dishes which might be mistaken for desserts. In one centralised topic, future members wishing to search for a discussion on children's choices have a better chance of finding it. Few, I suspect, would think, "I want to find a forum about fussy eaters; I'll search for 'not dessert'.

Normal.

That is typical. Hedge your bets! I'd be very careful with 'academic papers' from Chinese sources. About a decade ago, the Party decreed that all members must produce such papers and have them published or risk being passed over for promotion. This lead to the setting up of 'paper farms' which churn out these papers for a sutable fee. People buy them then 'publish' them in magazines set up just for the puurpose. The 'writers' of the papers pay to have them published, too. They are not peer-reviewed; they are only cash reviewed. I know of no western universities who accept them. They are notorious in academic circles. I am frequently asked to 'help' translate these papers. The so-called authors are required to have a brief summary in English, but many hope to have 'their' papers published in western publications. Extra points for that! So they offer me money to translate them and send me samples to see if I am willing to do the job. These usually arrive still on the farms' headed notepaper. Most of those I see are from medical staff in the local hospital. I am no medic (often neither are they) but even I can see they are nonsense which has no chance of being accepted by any serious academic journal. I always find that I am "too busy" at the time to help and so, decline. Now, I'm not saying that the one @Anna Nhas linked to is necessarily of that genre; I'm just saying be very wary.

Yeah, but I've overdone that Lao gan ma! I prefer a different dressing on my lice, these days.

I may give that a miss! 🤣

Oh dear. I guess you know how to cook chicken. Do you serve and eat it the same way every time? I also know how to cook potatoes. I certainly don't always serve them the same way every time, either.

No, I don't. They are both long established descriptors. Calling them 'brats' would be. Also, 'fussy' or 'picky' do not include the parents. Yes. The poorer classes dont tend to hang around restaurants much.

Thanks, but perhaps I should have been clearer. I know how to prepare and cook it. I was more looking for what to do with it thereafter.

No one said it was better. It was just used as an example. I see no overtones of morality or judgement other than as noted below. I already said, this was only my personal observations and there may well be fussy eaters, but in England I know many - usually regarding vegetables, especially greens. Also. anecdotally in most western countries. Isn't it surprising that I've never met one in 25 years in China? And children are most certainly taken to restaurants. I seriously doubt any fussy eaters are left behind at home to fend for themselves. Ha! Now who is being judgemental? It's my fault for not noticing that child lurking in the corner? If a child were to do so, and I'm pretty observant, the bowl of rice or noodles wouldn't have come from a children's menu! That was my only point there - they don't have children's menus.

Please don't misunderstand me. Despite the stupid, racist saying that the Chinese eat everything on legs except the table, many Chinese people are very conservative about eating foods they have never seen before. But that's as adults. I've never seen children with the same reaction. They still pile into KFC and McDonalds', but also still eat the greens and pig's tongue and goose intestines that their parents eat.

I've happily eaten pork tongue many times in restaurants and friends' homes here, but never cooked it. Today, on a whim, I bought one. Obviously, I can and will ask those friends for suggestions as to how to use it, but I'd also like to read what suggestions people here may have. My friends are all going to give me Chinese ideas. There must be others! Thanks!

11C. Balti + More, not Baltimore Two dishes often said to be British innovations are among the most popular in Indian restaurants in Britain. Let's have a look. Balti, also known as balti gohst (Urdu: بالٹی گوشت‎, Hindi: बाल्टी गोश्त) is often said to have been invented by Bangladeshi chefs in what is now known as the Balti Triangle in Birmingham, England, sometime in the 1970s. Even the city government promotes the city by unequivocally sloganeering that “Birmingham is the original home of the Balti”. Given that balti has been known and eaten in northern India and Pakistan for many years longer, that seems unlikely. It is more likely to have arrived in Britain in the 1970s. Balti Gosht The word ‘balti' , found in several of the Indian subcontinent's languages seems to have originated in the Portuguese balde, meaning a bucket or pail. This was transferred to refer to type of deep cooking pot, resembling the Chinese wok. This was then transferred to a dish cooked in said pot, not an unlikely scenario when you consider that many dishes across the world’s cuisines are so named – casserole, tagine and paella leap to mind. Pat Chapman, founder of The Curry Club in the UK, who writes about Indian restaurant food, sees a link between balti and Baltistan, the Kashmiri state (administered by Pakistan), bordering China. Other writers dismiss this, pointing out the dish balti bears no resemblance to any food traditionally eaten there. Balti as served in Pakistan Whatever the origin of the dish, by the 1990s it had spread from a small area of Birmingham, across Britain and Ireland, then to places such as New Zealand and Australia. I’ve seen it on menus in Indian restaurants in Hong Kong. It is now even sold in British supermarkets in a do-it-yourself version. There is (or was) even a brand of Balti Wine, supposed to marry well with south Asian food, especially balti. It is/was made from Argentinian grapes, but developed in 2004 in Manchester, England by a Pakistani entrepreneur. It should not be confused with Bălți, the Moldovan wine region. Note: I have been unable to determine if this wine is still available. The company’s website is dead and the domain up for sale at ₤1,795 (~ $2,530 USD) So what is a balti, the dish? Basically, it is general type of curry, using customer chosen meats and vegetables, but instead of being slowly stewed like most Indian preparations, balti is quick fried using a stir-fry technique like that of Chinese cooking. It also tends to use vegetable oil as the frying medium rather than the ghee (clarified butter) used in most of the subcontinent. _____________________________________________________________________________________ And so I come to Britain’s National dish (according to Robin Cook (1946 – 2005), the late British government foreign secretary who praised the dish in a 2001 speech on Britain’s multi-ethnicity). Chicken Tikka Masala Chicken Tikka Masala According to the legends, in 1971, someone, said by some to have been a bus driver, somewhere in Britain, ordered the well-established dish, Chicken Tikka which originated in the Mughal Dynasty (c. 1526 to 1857). It is a dish of meat or paneer (a type of Indian soft cheese) marinated in yoghurt and spices then baked in a tandoor, a traditional clay oven (although today they may be made from steel.) The fabled bus driver found the dish too dry for his taste, so asked for it to be dressed in a curry sauce. A chef added some masala sauce and Chicken Tikka Masala was born! He spread the word more and more people requested the dish, so it was added to the menu increasing its popularity and other restaurants began to copy it. By the mid-1980s it was the nation’s favourite curry, if not quite a National Dish. It took another decade to cement that reputation. So much for legends. The first problem is that no one has ever definitively identified that restaurant where the genesis supposedly took place. Various claims have been made across the country from “near London” to Glasgow in Scotland. The modern-day pundits are very divided, with a few backing the bus driver theory to an Indian journalist suggesting a link to a dish from the Punjab region in the north of India bordering Pakistan. The most common, and in my opinion most likely, view is that it was invented by Bangladeshi chefs some time in the 1960s and lay dormant until awakened when discovered in the early 1970s. Many writers have noted its similarity to murgh makhani aka butter chicken, a dish of chicken in a spiced tomato, butter and cream sauce. This dish is known to have been invented in Delhi, India in the 1950s by the chef owner of the Moti Mahal restaurant. It is said the dish was invented accidentally when tandoor-cooked chicken was mixed with tomato gravy, rich in butter and cream. Sound familiar? Bizarrely, one writer also claims that Hannah Glasse’s 1747 recipe for curry which I referenced above is also similar to butter chicken, although how she copied a recipe created 200 years later goes unexplained. There is only a vague resemblance that I can see, in that they both use chicken and Glasse does fry her meat in butter, as did most cooks then. In the later version of her recipe, she also adds cream. She probably had no access to tomatoes, which were only then beginning to be eaten in Britain, despite having been introduced much earlier. The ‘fusion’ origins of the dish gain weight from the name, which itself is a fusion of different languages, tikka being from the Hindi or Punjabi टिका ṭikka, which in itself came from the Turkic word tikkü, meaning "piece" or "chunk", and masala from the Urdu ماسالا masala meaning “spice mix”. Whatever the origins, the dish has become Britain’s favourite curry and one of the nation’s top dishes.It is even said to be the second favourite 'foreign' dish for home cooking, but as the top favourite is Chinese stir-fry which isn't just one dish (actually more of a cooking technique), I'd call chicken tikka masala number one. From Britain, the dish has spread around the world, even being found today in India’s own trendy restaurants. Outrageous cultural appropriation, I say! 😂 Image Credits: 1. Balti Gosht - Image by ayes - licenced under CC BY 2.0 2. Balti Gosht in Pakistan - Image by Miansari66 - Public Domain 3. Chicken Tikka Masala - Image by Michael Hays -licenced under CC BY 2.0

I think I've mentioned this before, and everything I'm about to repeat or say is purely based on my own observations of acquaintances, lovers, friends and enemies alike. Please take as you find it and don’t complain to me that it is unscientific – I know, thanks. Yet, I am sure what I have to say is valid. In my quarter of a century in China and even more in Asia, I have never once come across what we call fussy or picky children when it comes to food. I have questioned knowledgeable friends and parents, but they didn’t even understand my question – the concept was beyond them. Regularly, I eat in restaurants from the small noodle joints to lavish banqueting rooms, and have seen children pick out the vegetables to eat first. I’ve seen recently weaned children happily eat their greens, but be more hesitant about the proteins before getting there. I’ve spent my life working in universities around the world, seeing college students eating in canteens. Only here in China have I seen every student eating healthy fresh vegetables, rather than the burgers or pizzas I always saw in British universities. The typical lunch the students select here consists of two dishes plus rice. One dish is always vegetables – usually green. A dish without some green vegetables is almost unthinkable. I’ve never seen a restaurant in China with a separate children’s menu or children’s section on the main menu. Children eat what everyone else is eating. With famine and hunger still a living memory for many people, children are brought up to respect food and eat (to use a famous Chinese phrase) ‘every grain of rice”. Wasting food is seen as sinful. Beyond that, I am not qualified to venture as to reasons for the difference betwen cultures and I’m not going to guess, but given how often the topic comes up, usually in threads about something completely unrelated, I thought it may benefit from a topic of its own. I look forward to everyone’s thoughts and stories.