bethesdabakers

Mon Dieu!! Completely forgot to slash the bread! Yes, I do slash the tops immediately before they go in the oven using either a razor blade or a small serrated tomato knife. I don't, unlike a lot of people, use steam.

Some weeks back Rotuts asked: After mixing, the dough goes in a plastic box that has been rubbed with olive oil for about four hours or overnight in the fridge. If it’s the four hour job it might get an hourly stretch and fold (or it might not). It comes out of the box, gets divided by weight, has an air-fold (loosely shaped as a round by rotating in my hands whilst folding the edges underneath. The pieces get a short rest and then are shaped more tightly. I place them on the bench folds side up, press them gently into flat rounds, fold the edges into the centre and seal firmly with the heel of my hand, turn them over and shape them by rotating the dough, keeping the base on the bench, and pressing the edges underneath with the bottom edges of my hands. Easier to do than explain. Then I give the ball a good slap to flatten it slightly. This goes, seam side up, into a proving basket that has been sprinkled with wholemeal rye. The baskets are covered with tea towels and plastic sheet. The dough is proved for about three and a half hours. I bake in convection ovens on baking sheets – I don’t use stones. I flour the baking sheets with rye. Getting the dough onto the sheet is simply a question of picking your spot, holding the basket in your lead hand and confidently but gently tipping the dough out onto the spot. Your other hand is underneath, not to catch it, but just as a guide (and just in case!). If you need to reposition the dough a bit, just use both hands to give it a little twist. If you use a baking stone, then you need to turn the dough out onto a peel, professional or improvised, and slide it onto the stone. Semolina is usually used on the peel. Hope that’s useful – we get there in the end!

That's right. I was told that the system developed in commercial bakeries where mixes were done by the sack (of flour), so all the other ingredients had to be in proportion to the weight of a sack of flour. Flours are sometimes described by their optimum hydration, so a 60% flour would be one whose optimum absorbsion rate was 60% of the weight of a sack of flour (100lbs:60lbs). Salt traditionally is 2% as is, I think, yeast. So, in a basic dough, water is the only real variable. The reason my ingredient weights are not conveniently rounded up is because I use spreadsheet calculators to put together bread formulas, to tinker around with them and to store the final formula. So I have several "libraries" of bread by category (Regulars, Specials, Ryes, Flatbreads, Brioches, etc.).This allows me to put together a bake day worksheet which also calculates ingredient weights. This is an example from yesterday's bake: So everything is controlled by the percentage column. But I can change the bread weight and enter the number of a particular weight of bread ordered by my customers. The +3% column is there because some dough is always lost on bowls, mixers, hands and, because the bread is for sale, it has to be an accurate weight. All of this is a lot less important if you are just baking a couple of loaves where you can just multiply or divide ingredient weights.

Hey Elsie That's fabulous - you've made me a happy man! Now you can forget about your starter (so long as you keep it in good condition) and concentrate on making bread. You'll have to forgive me but I can't agree with pbear's comments. You can't just talk about dough - there are all sorts of dough (although my spell-check doesn't accept the plural) and they behave in different ways. In fact you can't handle all doughs in the same way because they won't let you. You have to handle wet doughs quickly and with a light hand because otherwise they stick to the work surface and your hands and refuse to be shaped. Lower hydration doughs need considerable force to be shaped properly and for folds to be sealed. Let's face it, the dough has 3-4 hours to recover. There are a whole lot of factors involved in creating an open crumb but the main one is probably high water content.

Following on from the previous post: Question: Does dough expand noticeably during fermentation? Answer: When I'm baking for customers I ferment my dough in boxes in the fridge overnight. I reckon to get 7K of dough in a box. But on a warm night ...

Hi Elsie The second rise, the proof, is the crucial one. Judging the state of the dough by increase in volume is difficult unless it is in a narrow transparent container. The dough will certainly expand during bulk fermentation, the first rise, but it is difficult to see if it's in a covered bowl or square dough box. Four hours should be plenty at room temperature (18-24C). The Dan Lepard method is to slash the surface and to look for gas bubbles. Once you've shaped your dough and put it in a proving basket or equivalent you can test the dough by dipping your finger in flour, pressing it gently into the dough and watching how the depression behaves. If it shoots back quickly the dough is underproved. If the hollow doesn't move at all it's overproved. You want to find a point where it's still pushing but closing slowly. It's something you need to learn how to judge. Don't worry - there's a lot of latitude because sourdough works so slowly.

Really sorry, Elsie. "Tricky" was used by someone else and I wasn't careful enough with the way I phrased the post. You were the first person brave enough to give this thing a go. I'm amazed that it's only been eight days.That's pretty much the length of time I would have expected before it took off.

Elsie The last photo you posted looked to me like a starter that had peaked and fallen back - but the photos are not at all clear. Why don't you try it and see if it makes bread? I read the first couple of posts from your thermomix link. Putting your starter outside to catch airborne yeasts is a waste of time. The last thing I am is a scientist but yeasts live on surfaces i.e. the most likely source of yeast is on the substance that predominates in the mixture - the flour you are using. As for making a starter from flour and water being tricky - tricky as compared with what? You mean we don't do things because they are "tricky"? Getting a starter established is the main hurdle to making sourdough - once you've succeeded you have it for life if you give it minimal care. So maybe it's worth a little trickiness. Next up - I tell a joke ....

Bit short of time right now - but: Hey People - I'm a bit of an old bruiser. I specialise on being on the wrong side of the argument and upsetting people. No need for anyone to apologise for anything. I'm really pleased that people have got involved.. I'm just concerned to get over my point of view before the thread does explode into a multiplicity of ideas. I'm just a bit slow about doing it. Mick

Fine looking bread, Cyalexa. And thanks for explaining your methods. The point of this thread was to show how simple it is to make a starter just using flour and water, and to go on to make bread with basic resources and even in unfamiliar territory. Then to show what happens when you liberate your starter from the fridge after four weeks and have to bake for customers within a couple of days. I suppose I should have devoted more time to the thread because it is already disintegrating before my very eyes. To recap, I demonstrated (with numerous boring photos) what you are likely to see in the first week or so of tempting flour and water to ferment. Nothing is very certain, a little panic sets in, but a point is reached where it either flares up or fades away. Elsie, I really think that your mixture, having shown considerable signs of activity, should be given more chance – adding commercial yeast is like starting a fire with petrol. So, what should you do when you get to the stage (somewhere between 7-9 days) where your mixture is clearly active but immature and somewhat erratic. Don’t refrigerate it – feed it once a day at a ratio of 1:1:1 (starter: water: flour by weight) keeping the quantities manageable (1=50g?). Use some to bake a loaf – we’ll come back to that. After several days of daily feeding, when it seems to be relatively stable, if you are not going to bake regularly you can store it in the fridge. Assuming you do, 24 hours before you want to bake (let’s say Friday morning for mixing Saturday morning) take your starter out of the fridge and refresh enough to provide the amount you want for your dough plus some to make an ongoing starter. In the evening refresh it again, putting some aside in the fridge for future bakes. If you are a frequent baker, keep the starter at room temperature and feed every couple of days. Refresh it eight hours before (or overnight) you want to mix your dough. So, here’s a simple recipe for when you think your starter is ready to produce a loaf – be brave, you won’t know until you try. For an 800g loaf (baked weight): Strong White Bread Flour 518g 100% Water 306g 59% Starter 137g 26.4% Salt 8g 1.5% Let’s stick with the Friday/Saturday model. You took your starter out of the fridge Friday a.m. and refreshed it. Friday evening you refreshed it again saving some for later use. Saturday morning. Mix all the ingredients in a mixing bowl using your hands (you’ll never learn anything about dough unless you use your hands). Soon as the mixture comes together get it on the work surface and knead it ten times. Cover and let it rest for a few minutes. Repeat the ten kneads and rest. Repeat a third time. Oil a plastic box or similar container, roughly shape it into a ball, drop it in the box and cover so it doesn’t dry out. Let the dough ferment for four hours at room temperature. If you’re feeling keen, give it a stretch at the end of the first three hours – take it out of the box stretch it as far as it will go without stressing, fold it over itself in thirds, stretch it in the opposite direction, repeat the folds, return to the box. At the end of four hours, shape the dough into a ball and place, seam side up in a proving basket that has been floured with rye flour. Cover with a cloth and plastic. Use a tea towel lined colander or a bowl if you don’t have proving baskets. Leave at room temperature for three and a half hours. Heat the oven to about 210C. Turn out the dough onto a rye-floured baking sheet, slash the top, bake for about 50 minutes. Yes, I could add more detail and add a few refinements but fundamentally that’s all there is to making top quality bread. So, before you head for big names, mixers, baking stones, dutch ovens, using steam, adding yeast, making bigas, poolish, etc., etc., just give it a try.

Cyalexa - I have to admit that I am totally confused by your advice to Patti. Why, if you were making white bread, wouldn't you keep a white starter? Why would it take 18 hours to make an active starter if you added white flour to your rye starter? Why would it take 36 hours for you rye starter to become active after refreshing? This is totally contrary to my experience.

Well, there you go - I'll stick to what I know - bread making. But it can't be as bad as Cadbury and don't tell my Mom because she thinks they're great. As a matter of interest I've done bread courses for two chocolatiers in the past twelve months. They must be inquisitive people.

Asadus - a fellow Brummie! If I was in Brum with a £15 chocolate alocation I would avoid Bournville like the plague and head for Chouchoute in the Great Western Arcade, Snowhill. The man is a class chocolatier. Best wishes Mick

Well, this is getting exciting. Patti, your starter looks fine. Do a test bake. I'm never sure why people are reluctant to experiment. Are you wanting to make rye bread or just use it as a general starter. Do you need a recipe or are you experienced? Howdy Chelseabun. It's a serious commitment! You'll never be the same again. Where we up to Elsie?

Yes, Elsie, you feed a starter it bubbles up and falls back. At the moment it will be quite unstable but as it matures this is likely to occur in about eight hour cycles. For the next few days I would discard and feed the mixture once a day.

Hi Elsie Forgot to say that starter's beginning tolook promising. Keep up the reports. Mick

Well, that's it - full circle. Hope you've got something out of having five weeks of sourdough in action in your face. Happy to answer any questions but right now I've got customers to round up and then an aniversary weekend to sort out - a mere 38 years. Plus, say happy birthday to the starter - 15 years old this very day - well sometime about now in 1999, might as well call it today. If you want to learn more, a pdf copy of of my sourdough basics book could be with you within minutes. Details on the blog. Iechyd Da. Mick

Yesterday morning was looking back to normal: Built it from 1.5 kilos to 4.5. Late afternoon it looked like this: The two marks on the bucket show the rise - ever read that your starter should triple in volume? More missinformation ... Mixed three doughs totaling a little under 30K. These went in the fridge overnight. All night the lightning flashed and the thunder rumbled round the mountains (honest). The day of judgement is here. Started scaling and shaping at 6.00 a.m. All the dough is now in couches and baskets. First bake in 15 minutes! You remember I had a large amount of rye starter ready as a back-up.Yesterday morning I used it to run up a 2 kilo Simple Danish Rye: I usually bake them in tins but I thought I'd try it freeform. Absolutely delicious for breakfast this morning. Elsie, hang on in there. I wouldn't feed it until the are definite signs of activity.

That's great, Elsie. I hope other people will give it a try too. Couple of points. You'd be better off transfering the mixture to something like a jam jar (something made of glass that is taller than it is wide) just so you can see more easily what's going on - is it rising, are there bubbles throughout the mixture, etc. The location of the jar doesn't particularly matter - what you want is a reasonably constant temperature in the 18-25C range. So a windowsill if it gets a lot of sun or is drafty is not a good place.

B-limey Forgot to say that I divided the white starter into three this morning and used one part to make a test loaf. Don't think there's anything wrong with the starter. Of course I was only pretending to be nervous ... By this evening the rye was flying: so I've got rather a lot of un-needed rye starter on my hands. Have to do something with it in the morning. The two divided white starters are both doing well - I would almost say the smaller (1:2:2) is doing a bit better than the larger (1:1:1). I've amalgamated them and refreshed them up to about 1500g. Will build again in the morning. Yes, Smithy, it went down the sink. Starter at 100% hydration is easily diluted so it went down with plenty of other water.

Thank you for all your thank you's. There was a point when I thought I was talking to myself! I thought I'd round it off by showing you the aftermath - we got home Sunday morning about 1.00 a.m., my starters have been in the fridge for over four weeks and I need about 4.5 kilos of active starter to mix dough for around 30 large loaves on Wednesday evening to bake for customers the following day. Then I'll maybe give you the formulas for the Pan Pugliese and the Olive Bread and a feeding regime for your new starter. It's Tuesday morning and I'm getting a little nervous. Cats are supposed to be sulky after you've been away but Legs, our current furry, has been just so pleased to have us back. On the other hand I'm not so sure about the starters. I took them out of the fridge when we got home and did nothing till the morning. As you can see, a few millimeters of hooch on the top of the white starter. Poured it away and refreshed it at a ratio of 1:1:1 (equal weights of starter, water and flour). Rye - can't tell much from this. Refreshed as above. Not much action by Sunday evening so left them in peace until Monday morning when they looked like this: Not a lot of activity - refreshed same as previous. Rye not doing a lot either so left it alone as ryes can take longer to mature. Monday evening: Some activity in the white but not as much as I would have expected - refreshed again as above. The rye - which I hadn't refreshed - has moved on a little. Refreshed as before. This morning - with all the bread orders in - I start to get a little nervous: It IS active but it doesn't look the way I would expect. The rye is doing a little better. Time for drastic action - I must have a kilo of active starter tomorrow morning so I can build it to 4.5 for the evening's mix. Split the white starter and refresh one half at 1:1:1 and the other 1:2:2 (starter:water:flour) and do quite a large refreshment with the rye as back-up. And you never thought watching a starter could be so gripping ...

Well, That's your lot. Starter's gone down the sink - Home tomorrow. Last loaf was olive bread using wonderful Greek cured olives from the market. Took all of 80 minutes to bake at full "blast".

It's been the year of the fig here. A new stall appeared on the market on Sundays run by two young women selling local organic produce, mainly fruit, and including fabulous green figs. We have been taking full advantage. By chance there was a recipe in the weekend Guardian for fig and serrano flat breads. I ignored the dough recipe and used the 80% hydration posted some days back. Basically sliced figs and ribbons of serrano are gently pressed into the dough and drizzled with a dressing of honey, balsamic vinegar and olive oil and topped with rocket (arugula) after baking. So good we've done it twice.

We're still here - sometimes with an internet connection and sometimes without. After four days without it decides to rejoin us this morning. Starter's still looking happy: This was on Sunday. The third bread was even more bread-like: Pane Pugliese - back home it would be so active it would be difficult to control It even had something resembling a crust - after an hour at 230C (so it claims).

Starting to look a bit more like bread – loaf number two I nearly killed off the starter the other day. Amongst the jumble of bread mixes in the supermarket I was trying to find something that was just straight flour. Saw bags of sarrasin which I knew was buckwheat. Next shelf was something called farine de ble noir – black wheat flour - which I foolishly bought. Deep down I knew it wasn’t right but I refreshed my new starter with it. Deep down I knew this was also buckwheat. I’ve never seen a starter looking queasy before – weak, yes, but about to throw up, no. Anyway a couple of refreshments with T65 and it was ready to go again. This one is one of my favourite all round doughs. Pretty wet at almost 80% water it usually goes in the fridge for at least 48 hours and I use it for pizza, baguettes, burger buns, focaccia – virtually anything. Strong White Bread Flour 503g 100% Water 393g 78.2% Starter 126g 25.0% Salt 8g 1.5% This time it was only in the fridge overnight after about three hours fermentation and three folds. This morning I just shaped it as a boule and placed it on a pizza tin good side up, proved it for two hours, slashed and baked it for 60 minutes at “230C” as the oven claims. Here’s a photo of the boulangerie that our neighbour here reckons is the best in town. Bought a rye there once and wasn’t much impressed. When you zoom out: look at the original chimney – sadly long out of use.